Got rollered!

[beetle]

As Paul also asked, did you feel absolutely no difference pre/post conversion?

Beetle, you see no other result as before as I understand?

No difference by seat of pants. A bit wiffy at idle, but accelerating through the gears to redline, there was no real obvious performance difference.

[Vasco DG]

That's interesting. With the Mistral no dbk map, same set up as you, mine is dead after that 6,000 point at any wide throttle opening. If you're coming to Canbera next week bring your riding gear and take mine out. It's got the logging gear on it, we can do a couple of runs.

Pete

[beetle]

If you're coming to Canbera next week bring your riding gear and take mine out. It's got the logging gear on it, we can do a couple of runs.

Will do. I've been scratching my head about it. I've applied a 1.5-2% increase to the main map above 6000 RPM (indeed, across the bulk of the rev range). Not a major change at all.

[Vasco DG]

You and Leah want to do breakfast Sunday? We're going to be in Adelong tomorrow night. If you feel like joining us for a feed please do.

Pete

[beetle]

You and Leah want to do breakfast Sunday? We're going to be in Adelong tomorrow night. If you feel like joining us for a feed please do.

Pete

Sure. Brunch?

[Vasco DG]

Excellent. See email.

[Vasco DG]

Thinking about it it could be that there is something else *Wrong* with my engine or engine management system but I very much doubt it. While the Nuovo Hi-Cam doesn't seem to be a one tooth collision motor the symptoms if you are out by a tooth are known to me and very obvious! It was also running very well up until the tappets and subsequently the big ends went tits.

Really I won't know for sure until I can rip into it on the bench after I've swapped out the motive unit from the Qld. Shitter. Having a 'Spare' motor on the bench will help a lot. I can do a really accurate graph of both flat and roller systems whilst I'm rebuilding the old one and if I have a bit of spare change, (Unlikely right now but you never know.) I can take it in to the 'Bloke with a flow bench' who's name I can't remember, and do some flow comparisons between the two.

Pete

[lucian]

After some tinkering, Mark's universal map is again the cat's meow with the roller tappets. I reset the gaps to 4and 6 instead of 6and8 where I first had them. Also had some crud inside the LH throttle body that may have been reaping havoc on the base tps value as it changed after re assembly. The crud was not oil from the air box, but carbon from previous blow by on the left intake valves. It is definitely the best this bike has ever run as long as I've owned it. The fueling is absolutely beautiful , linear from idle to red line. I couldn't stand the popping on over run with the 03 factory map, or the choppy fueling around 3000 rpm so I switched back to Mark's map and what a pleasant surprise. The 03 map seemed more radical under accell, but I think it was really just less linear and more all at once at 6ooo rpm . I currently have the co at + 3 and it seems to help on the little stumble I get on a dead cold start, it only last a minute or two until it warms up and then it's gone. Is there a correction to the warm up table I can try for this or is this typical? Over all very happy with the outcome post roller conversion, and quieter to the point of not being able to hear valve train noise with my helmet on. In summary  I see no need to modify this map for rollers. It still amazes me that the factory maps can be so inferior. Nice work Mark. 

[Yo Man]

The difference in clearance will make little difference to the way the engine runs if you are running a closed loop map. Open loop? Different matter. If the clearances are set at the wider settings it will make the top end fractionally noisier.

Pete

I'm running Mark's map in my '09 Stelvio and I've set the valves at 4 and 6 thou, as my owner's manual specifies. Has that been changed to 6 and 8?

[lucian]

I'm running Mark's map in my '09 Stelvio and I've set the valves at 4 and 6 thou, as my owner's manual specifies. Has that been changed to 6 and 8?

NO, the flat tappet motor just seemed to run better with the larger gaps. But I am pretty sure the opposite is true with the rollers.

[Vasco DG]

Wider gaps were a factory suggestion at one point, maybe because they thought the damage was the result of the tappets riding the cam. Mark's flat tappet maps are all built around 6 & 8 and the engine is very sensitive to change so if using one of these maps ensure the gaps are set at 6 & 8!

Pete

[beetle]

For flat tappet Griso's running one of my maps, 6 & 8 thou. For other bikes, set as per factory specs.
My rollers are set at 4 & 6, so any map update for rollers will require the same valve clearance.

Dave, I should have twigged that you would have needed to reset your clearances to 4 & 6. So far with the one map I've updated (Mistral Hi-Pipe with dBk), I've needed to add more fuel at the top, and pull some out at idle. I've also needed to modify the warm-up table as well. The Termi will be different of course, and it will be next, but I expect to have to add more fuel to it as well.

I've taken a slightly different approach to the roller maps. Previously, my target AFR was 12.8, which usually meant folks in North America had to go a positive CO, and folks without ethanol could stay at zero or even go negative. My new target is 12.5, so you lot can flash-and-go, and the rest will need a CO trim adjustment. After all, the U.S. and Canada run more of my maps than anywhere else.

[lucian]

Thanks Mark, I have been running 91 octane with 15% corn ethanol and your flat tappet map and it is running fantastic. The plugs do look lean with no real discoloration so I decided to play it safe and go to +3 on the co. Other than the warm up stumble it is perfect. I am just getting started learning tuner pro and curios about the changes necessary to the warm up table, I have a lot to learn but I've got the bug now  and I can't sleep . I am surprised at your 12.5 afr target. I always thought 13.6 was "ideal". Brilliant how you chopped the fuel on closed throttle and the result, just seems unreal to be able to punch it and then cut it with no popping,at all, it's a beautiful thing! Would be more than happy to help if I can with a new iteration , though as of now I cannot data log. I am however a great guinea pig. Dave

[Yo Man]

Wider gaps were a factory suggestion at one point, maybe because they thought the damage was the result of the tappets riding the cam. Mark's flat tappet maps are all built around 6 & 8 and the engine is very sensitive to change so if using one of these maps ensure the gaps are set at 6 & 8!

Pete

Thanks Pete and Mark for all the help and information. I'll be resetting to 6 and 8 thou first thing tomorrow. Engine mapping is way beyond my understanding and I was more than proud of myself just for being able to download and install Mark's map. One thing I didn't alter was the co, the reason being I wasn't sure what I was trying to accomplish. What exactly does the co affect? Is it the mixture at idle or does it affect operation at all rpm?

[Vasco DG]

It has an effect at all RPM. Each increment or decrease changes the pulse width by 10 microseconds but it does it across the entire map so at idle its effect is much greater than at wide open throttle.

[beetle]

I am surprised at your 12.5 afr target. I always thought 13.6 was "ideal".

There is method to my madness.  The effects of ethanol and an understanding of how the 8V head works and all that.

[jacksonracingcomau]

For those interested in ancient history here are a few pics from way back when. These are the original chilled cast iron tappets that came out of my engine. At this time, (2009) engines were failing in a couple of thousand miles in the UK. My replacement kit was mislaid and it didn't get fitted until I'd done about 22,000 km and my tappets were just fine!



And here are the gen 1 tappet, (On the right.) next to the gen 2 type. The difference in design and construction is obvious.



Pete

yep, fine

[Senya]

Gents, thanks a lot for the help and advice, really great forum.
I have a 2009 Stelvio, 25k km on the clock (or more as first owner did not bother fixing speedo sensor before sale). I've been reading a lot about cam failures so paid close attention to cam noises every single ride. Nothing unusual - it was fairly quiet after cam clearance adjustment and fairly loud immediately before. During the 2015 season I had to adjust valve clearances every 1000 km or so which I took as a sure sign that something is not perfect. So I have ordered Roller tappets Kit-B (1A002063) and installed it. Just in time.
Here are the pics of the cams and tappets removed form the bike. 

[Wayne Orwig]

That tappet on the right is pretty nasty looking. Did you clean out the sump?
 

[Senya]

That tappet on the right is pretty nasty looking. Did you clean out the sump?

They all look quite scary. No, I did not clean the sump. There was not much of metal on the magnet of the oil drain plug. Hopefully most of the metal particles from the tappets were caught by the magnet and oil filter. And now they are on a safe distance from the bike.

[Gliderjohn]

Taking mine in Wednesday to get rollererd. Will be interesting to see what things look like at bit over 13,000 miles.
GliderJohn

[Wayne Orwig]

This is the right hand intake tappet I checked yesterday.
2011 Griso, only around 8000 miles. Not much metal missing. But it looks like they are all going to go.

[beetle]

Every single flat tappet model everywhere is kaput. No exceptions. Wayne, get rollers now.

[Dilliw]

Every single flat tappet model everywhere is kaput. No exceptions. Wayne, get rollers now.

Wayne's Stelvio has been rolled.  That's out of my "new to me" Griso and yep I going to get it sorted pronto.

[beetle]

[guzzisteve]

I am doing another Stelvio 10 model, had to document it for warranty  parts. I had put cams & tappets in it under warranty  before rollers came out. 1st set went 20K mi, this time another 20K mi and I had 1 out of 4 tappets looked like new.
The last Stelvio a 12 model had 37K mi on it looked like same wear. The next one lined up is a 11 model w/22K mi on it, can't wait to see what it looks like.

[tazio]

Yes, that Stelvio 2010 model be mine.
Go, Steve, Go !!! Rollerize that bad boy!
I know "Herkimer" is in good hands !
Now if I could just keep my eyes off that
 2015 red and black Griso you have on the floor....

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes, that Stelvio 2010 model be mine.
Go, Steve, Go !!! Rollerize that bad boy!
I know "Herkimer" is in good hands !
Now if I could just keep my eyes off that
 2015 red and black Griso you have on the floor....

You should be able to get a new centerstand to replace the one I welded on that Stevio.

[tazio]

Hey Wayne!
Yes, 2 open recalls getting addressed. New center stand and wire "loom"(just a rubber cap/cover).
Is your Stelvio rollerization completed ?
Say hey to the misses from us!

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes, 2 open recalls getting addressed. New center stand and wire "loom"(just a rubber cap/cover).
Is your Stelvio rollerization completed ?

Yes, I'm putting miles on mine again.  Unusual not having the 'cement mixer' noises.
I still haven't installed that center stand. Too lazy to fight the springs.

Don't make too much fun of my crappy weld job on that stand. I'm a hack, but I have a grinder.