VW, now THAT is a major problem.

[jas67]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/vw-compensate-owners-diesel-cars-loss-34349287

Volkswagen could compensate owners of diesel-powered cars that emit high levels of pollutants, possibly by paying them for the lost value of their vehicles, the company's top U.S. executive said.

Speaking to lawmakers investigating the emissions cheating, U.S. CEO Michael Horn also said fixing most of the 500,000 affected cars in the U.S. could take one to two years, possibly more. The fix, he said, would not hurt fuel mileage, but it could hinder the cars' performance, knocking one or two miles-per-hour off the top speed.

"There might be a slight impact on performance," Horn said Thursday to a subcommittee of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

Two MPH off the top speed?  I doubt anyone that owns a TDI cares about that, but, what about acceleration?   What about the ability to get into traffic on the highway without getting rear ended, or pass that slow vehicle in the uphill passing zone (as opposed to BEING the slow vehicle up the hill)?   That's what really matters to drivers.

Horn told the committee that VW hasn't calculated how much value the scandal has cost owners of the affected cars. But earlier this week Kelley Blue Book said the value of VWs with 2-liter diesel engines had fallen 13 percent since mid-September. Used car values often drop in the fall, but the VW diesel drop was unusually large.
......

I would guess it is more like 20 percent, which was the premium a used TDI would go for over a gasser.   That premium is not only gone, but, probably a negative now.

[jas67]

Horn said software changes alone will work to fix newer models, but 430,000 cars dating to 2009 will need mechanical repairs that are still being developed. Horn said engineers are working on either a larger catalytic converter that would treat nitrogen oxide, or a system that injects a chemical called urea into the exhaust.

Well, there goes any chance of reversing the changes by flashing the old software.

The new models referred too that would get only software changes, are the 2015 and newer Golfs and other models with urea injection (Passat back to 2013).

[rss29]

Two MPH off the top speed?  I doubt anyone that owns a TDI cares about that, but, what about acceleration?   What about the ability to get into traffic on the highway without getting rear ended, or pass that slow vehicle in the uphill passing zone (as opposed to BEING the slow vehicle up the hill)?   That's what really matters to drivers.

You're exactly right. Nobody in the US cares about the top speed, but these things are already pretty slow. I really doubt top speed is the only compromise. If the fix reduces HP or Torque and makes them even slower they'll be even less appealing than they have already become. ~9 seconds to 60 is pretty slow by modern car standards. There isn't much room to sacrifice performance and have the car still be desirable to people who enjoy driving. Resale on these cars is going to be terrible for quite a while I believe.

[LowRyter]

All of the cars in question are equipped with DPF.    All TDI's importing since 2009 have them.    There were no TDI's imported in 2007-2008.    2006 and earlier don't have DPF, and are not part of the recall.

If the cars could pass the test in "test mode", which is only software, I'd be surprised to see a solution other than forcing the cars to run in that mode all the time; unless, of course, drive-ability and fuel economy suffer so much that they know they'll get their asses sued off?

I think that the software would make the drive-ability and the fuel economy to suffer where they would get their asses sued.  And some have speculated that  the "soot trap" would explode in about 10k miles. 

[Kev m]

I'm sure the effect is being understated when they claim 1-2 mph off top speed.

[dibble]

Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits?  I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy.  Yes owners should be made as whole as possible.  Yes dealers issues should be mitigated.  Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with.  Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company.  No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich.  I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar.  I'm just saying.  The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
 
Gian4

Yes the glee some have shown about how much will be screwed out of VW over this is getting a bit tasteless, destroying VW is not going to contribute to the greater good of humanity, proffiting Lawers at the expense of Engineers and Fabricators is not a good thing.

�Whoever makes two ears of corn, or two blades of grass to grow where only one grew before, deserves better of mankind, and does more essential service to his country than the whole race of politicians put together�

[dibble]

I'm sure the effect is being understated when they claim 1-2 mph off top speed.

1-2mph off a 130mph top speed would equate to a tiny power loss, I'm possitive someone on here can explain the aerodynamic stuff.

[Mark West]

Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits?  I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy.  Yes owners should be made as whole as possible.  Yes dealers issues should be mitigated.  Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with.  Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company.  No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich.  I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar.  I'm just saying.  The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
 
Gian4

If VW goes down ( I don't think it will) it will most likely be due as much to the free market as it will be governments. Yes. There will be big $$$$ fines but the U.S. is not going to give them anywhere near the max amount and I certainly don't expect the EU to punish them in a crippling manner. All the other costs for recalls, etc, is their own doing unless of course you think they should get some kind of exemption from environmental regulations.

Long term, they will have a huge loss of car sales. The diesel car was a huge part of their business. It's going to be completely shut down for some period of time and when they do get things fixed they are going to have to regain the trust of consumers and that isn't going to happen overnight. VW is a huge company with huge overhead. Taking away a big chunk of their sales is going to hurt real bad and that is a problem they made for themselves. I think they'll get through it  but it wouldn't surprise me to see them drop out of the top 3 automakers for a while.

[rodekyll]

Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits?  I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy.  Yes owners should be made as whole as possible.  Yes dealers issues should be mitigated.  Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with.  Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company.  No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich.  I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar.  I'm just saying.  The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
 
Gian4

I think you miss the point of the cheating.  It's not the fake numbers f***ing up resale values that are the problem.  The crime is the corporate willingness to poison the planet for a cash profit.  How much material harm have they done to how many people with the excess pollution?  This is a crime against humanity.  If the punishment is not survivable, maybe others will take notice.

[Kev m]

As for "glee", I'm not sure I'm reading that into the posts. But if I am, maybe it is combination of things.

1. Cheating is cheating - VW sold more cars and made more money because of an unfair advantage (in price point, mpg/efficiency etc.) than their competitors. In doing so the arguably harmed ALL OF US to some degree and their customers the most. I think I can understand someone who is happy that they are not going to get away with it.

2. Is the world better without VW - doubtful. But the world is likely better with executives who are scared to cheat their customers or the governments that allow their products to be sold in their countries. And whatever happens the end result SHOULD discourage such behavior in the future or again, we all lose.

3. Class Action Suits - really do MOSTLY benefit the lawyers, though see point #2 and if they are a tool that helps encourage proper corporate behavior (part of the stick instead of the carrot) then I can at least understand them, even if I have no love for them.

1-2mph off a 130mph top speed would equate to a tiny power loss, I'm possitive someone on here can explain the aerodynamic stuff.

I'm saying that they are probably exaggerating in a positive light, or underplaying the effect.

Yes, maybe it is only 2 mph on the top end, but maybe they're not telling you about another 3 seconds 0-60 or something like that.

[rodekyll]

If the difference was only 1-2 miles off of top speed, why did they cheat to begin with?

[rocker59]

If the difference was only 1-2 miles off of top speed, why did they cheat to begin with?

Top speed is not an EPA tested parameter.

Basically, the emissions controls systems will require higher maintenance if they are operating as required by EPA, and the engine is turned up.

To get the maintenance issues into acceptable parameters while meeting EPA, they have to turn the engine down.

[canuguzzi]

A 1-2 mph at 130mph is a lot of power to lose if that is where the engine makes max power.  From my understanding, the power to gain additional mph goes up exponentially with speed.

That 1-2 mph off a 130 mph top end isn't just a horsepower or two.

[dibble]

A 1-2 mph at 130mph is a lot of power to lose if that is where the engine makes max power.  From my understanding, the power to gain additional mph goes up exponentially with speed.

That 1-2 mph off a 130 mph top end isn't just a horsepower or two.

I got that the wrong way round didn't I......

[rocker59]

Power increases at the Cube of speed, or something like that...

[rodekyll]

A 1-2 mph at 130mph is a lot of power to lose if that is where the engine makes max power.  From my understanding, the power to gain additional mph goes up exponentially with speed.

That 1-2 mph off a 130 mph top end isn't just a horsepower or two.

Even more to my point.  That's approaching 2x the legal limit in many places.  Down in the real-world numbers it doesn't matter.

[jas67]

1-2mph off a 130mph top speed would equate to a tiny power loss, I'm possitive someone on here can explain the aerodynamic stuff.

Correct.    As Kev M. said, they're understating the effect on performance.

When 11 million owners' cars loose substantial performance and economy, they're going to have a real shit storm on their hands.

It will take a very long time for them to recover from this.    I'm a fairing recent VW owner.    My wife and I liked the first one enough to buy a second one.    They've lost us forever.   I'm pretty loyal to products that I like too.    I owned and drove BMWs for 18 years, but, switched to VW for the fuel economy of TDI (ironically, the BMW's four cylinder diesel 3 series has announced for the US within a year), and also because, like their bikes, BMW cars were going too far up market for me.

It is pretty much guaranteed that we'll never buy another VW product, ever.

[pebra]

The car industry is a cut-throat industry.
Some of those 11 million sales would have gone to other manufacturers, who'd badly need that business.
Let's see if those manufacturers rise hell and make as much trouble for VW as possible, or prefer to try to calm things down......

[canuguzzi]

Even more to my point.  That's approaching 2x the legal limit in many places.  Down in the real-world numbers it doesn't matter.

The point was that since the power loss would need to be significant to provide a lower top speed the real word speeds would see the power reduction in more significance.

Losing a couple miles per hour on top end doesn't mean much since the speed loss is small. The power loss though, doesn't get smaller speed goes down, it has a greater effect because there is far less power available at the lower speeds. Say you lose 10 HP at the top speed.

If you are putting your foot into it at regular driving speeds because you want to pass, you'll miss that 10 HP. Engine speeds at low driving speeds can be the same as at high road speeds, it called gears. And engine running at 5000 rpms with a road speed of 45 mph produces the same power running at 5000 rpm but in an higher gear at 125mph.

To make it simple, the guy driving at 45 mph who needs to merge and runs the engine into the best part of the power band is going to really notice the slower 45-65 acceleration rate compared to the guy running at 128 and trying to make 130.

In real world numbers it does matter.

[Gian4]

Poison the planet......If I hear that phrase one more time I'll throw up.  Crime against humanity????  Hitler,Pol Pot,Stalin yes, but VW come on.  Yes they were greedy and yes they should be punished and will be.  My comment about perspective I see was some how lost to some in translation.  Every time we breath or fart (according to the EPA) we "poison" the planet and "commit crimes against humanity".   
Gian4 

[rodekyll]

Poison the planet......If I hear that phrase one more time I'll throw up.  Crime against humanity????  Hitler,Pol Pot,Stalin yes, but VW come on.  Yes they were greedy and yes they should be punished and will be.  My comment about perspective I see was some how lost to some in translation.  Every time we breath or fart (according to the EPA) we "poison" the planet and "commit crimes against humanity".   
Gian4 

You're comparing a single fart to the deliberate excessive pollution of 11 million vehicles based purely on greed?


I have no words for you.   

[rodekyll]

The point was that since the power loss would need to be significant to provide a lower top speed the real word speeds would see the power reduction in more significance.

Losing a couple miles per hour on top end doesn't mean much since the speed loss is small. The power loss though, doesn't get smaller speed goes down, it has a greater effect because there is far less power available at the lower speeds. Say you lose 10 HP at the top speed.

If you are putting your foot into it at regular driving speeds because you want to pass, you'll miss that 10 HP. Engine speeds at low driving speeds can be the same as at high road speeds, it called gears. And engine running at 5000 rpms with a road speed of 45 mph produces the same power running at 5000 rpm but in an higher gear at 125mph.

To make it simple, the guy driving at 45 mph who needs to merge and runs the engine into the best part of the power band is going to really notice the slower 45-65 acceleration rate compared to the guy running at 128 and trying to make 130.

In real world numbers it does matter.

 . . . you're saying (in example) that the reduction is 10hp output reduction at any rpm -- NOT 10% less hp (or some RATE v absolute value) at any rpm?

[Gian4]

This may be a stretch on my part but I don't think I'm the only one farting in this world.
Gian4

[rodekyll]

This may be a stretch on my part but I don't think I'm the only one farting in this world.
Gian4

No, that part isn't the stretch.   

[canuguzzi]

 . . . you're saying (in example) that the reduction is 10hp output reduction at any rpm -- NOT 10% less hp (or some RATE v absolute value) at any rpm?

The 10% was just an example, I don't know the reduction will actually be.

An engine produces the same power at 5000 rpms regardless of what the speed of the car is. 5000 at 30 mph or 5000 at 130, the power is the same.

Depending on how the transmission is configured, when the trans shifts and all that, the VW diesel could easily be operating at or near max output for 45-65 merges or accelerations around town. The diesel has to operate near max to compete with the gas engines on those terms because gas engined cars tend to accelerate faster than the diesel so operating the diesel closer to max power more of the time evens the playing field. A reduction in power at the 130 mph speeds where the engine is producing max power means less power at lower speeds where the engine is at max power.

The reduction probably isn't a static 10% for example but with a diesel, a 10% drop at max means more than a 10% drop at max for a gas engine because the diesels tend torun near max power more often in cars like the VW, that is how they tout it and get it to perform the way people like it.

Since the diesel uses less fuel, typically, even when run near max power than the gas engines, running them like that to give buyers acceleration they want works out.

[rodekyll]

I understand that we're using numbers so's we have something to talk about.   

But you've talked about 10% and 10hp, and it's got me confused.

But confusion aside -- if it takes more power to run at 5krpm/130mph v 5krpm/70mph, and if it's a cubed thing, down in the real world I'm still not seeing the significance, unless you're comparing the reduction against max potential rather than what's needed to get the job done.  In that respect I think the 10% is less of a factor at real-world values.

[blackcat]

While not the same as VW, the list gets bigger.

"Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.


Wide range of cars emit more pollution in realistic driving tests, data shows
 Read more
In more realistic on-road tests, some Honda models emitted six times the regulatory limit of NOx pollution while some unnamed 4x4 models had 20 times the NOx limit coming out of their exhaust pipes.

“The issue is a systemic one” across the industry, said Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics tested the cars. The Guardian revealed last week that diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep all pumped out significantly more NOx in more realistic driving conditions. Nix pollution is at illegal levels in many parts of the UK and is believed to have caused many thousands of premature deaths and billions of pounds in health costs."

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=fb_gu

[Aaron D.]

Well, how often do they get the EPA rated mileage?

This may be grand news for VW.

[Dogwalker]

This may be grand news for VW.

Really not.
The key words here are "more realistic".
That really means "pushing on the accelerator".
To pass the omologation test, the cars are required to meet the prescribed emission figures in the driving conditions (so much RPM for so much time) established for the omologation test. No matter how much unrealistic they are.
VW had gone far beyond that, equipping its cars with a software that recognized when the car was on a test bench. That way the car had more emission on the road (or simply on a test bench that moves all four wheels of the car) even in the "unrealistic" driving conditions established for the omologation test.
To rule over the VW case is matter for the courts.
To estabilish more "realistic" driving conditions for the future homolgation tests is matter for the legislators.

[Aaron D.]

Bet their fine is under $1B.