2003 Aluminum -no recalls question

[Dnaj]

I'm looking at 2003 MG Aluminum showing 1250 original miles. Its been parked and out of circulation a while. I had the reputable MG dealership (Harrisburg Pa) run the VIN.  Regarding the 2003 recall for "soft cams", the Guzzi rep told the dealership that the VIN is not one covered under the program. Trying to decifer what that means. Does that mean it has hardened cams? But still have hydraulic lifters?

[Wayne Orwig]

I'm 99.99% sure all Aluminums had the hydraulic lifters. Meaning, don't believe a word they say.
It is a VERY easy job to remove a valve cover and reveal almost everything you need to know.

You would be better off finding one with 70,000 miles. The low miles are worrisome to me.


There is also the single plate clutch concern.

[Dnaj]

I'm 99.99% sure all Aluminums had the hydraulic lifters. Meaning, don't believe a word they say.
It is a VERY easy job to remove a valve cover and reveal almost everything you need to know.

You would be better off finding one with 70,000 miles. The low miles are worrisome to me.


There is also the single plate clutch concern.

Yes, but the seller won't let me take a wrench to his bike to check it out, and I doubt I would let a stranger to that to my bike either, recall or no. Is it the hydraulic lifters or the combination of hydraulic lifters and "soft cams" The bike is priced accordingly. That said, if a photograph shows that is should be covered, will they do it?

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes, but the seller won't let me take a wrench to his bike to check it out, and I doubt I would let a stranger to that to my bike either, recall or no. Is it the hydraulic lifters or the combination of hydraulic lifters and "soft cams" The bike is priced accordingly. That said, if a photograph shows that is should be covered, will they do it?

Let the seller turn the wrench. Or as was said, run away. Too many did NOT get the cam update sadly.

It was a combination of problems. The resolution was softer springs, that were reshimmed, and lighter weight valve caps. The tappet material may have changed. I believe the cams didn't change.

[Vasco DG]

This is a sticky question. A recent conversation I had at our importer indicated that piaggio is not going to support further recalls on vehicles over ten years old. At the end of the day this has to be seen as reasonable, especially with non-safety related stuff.

If a bike is 12-13 years old, like it or not, regardless of mileage it should of been serviced every year. It would be expected that if a machine had a known issue like the cam and tappet problem of the early Hydro's this would of been checked at one of the first TEN services the bike should of had in its first decade on the road. It's not even 'Three strikes and you're out!' it's TEN strikes and you're out! Not really unreasonable, especially when it is all up in the factory website which we as dealers are supposed to peruse from time to time! The fact that this bike has sat for yonks doing nothing does not make it a 'Low mileage bargain'! What it makes it is a risky, under used and maintained gamble!

You can't tell if the cam recall has been done unless you pop a valve cover and even then you need to know what you're looking for. There might also be the steering stem recall and the single plate clutch issue to deal with!

Unless you are someone with the skills and tools to undertake all the work, really wanted *That* bike got it virtually free I'd be back-pedalling away so fast it would plough a furrow!

Pete

[Dnaj]

Yes, I got all that but MG says it's not one of the effected bikes. In other word, while it's a 2003, this VIN was not under the recall. Can someone confirm that if I post or PM the VIN?

[guzzisteve]

If it doesn't fall under the recall VIN it most likely has the 2nd fix in it not the final fix.  Have the owner take it to the dealer to open the cover.

[Vasco DG]

There were also numerous reported cases where the recalls were claimed to have been performed but it was later found out that they hadn't been. The fact that the machine has no open campaigns listed against its Vin# unfortunately means little.

Unless you are allowed to look under the rocker cover and take some pics? Walk away.

[Dnaj]

If it doesn't fall under the recall VIN it most likely has the 2nd fix in it not the final fix.  Have the owner take it to the dealer to open the cover.

Is it correct to say that the second fix was to replace the came with a hardened cam but the final was to convert to solid lifters? And that some folks love a corrected hydro while others won't touch them? I don't understand the 2nd versus final fixes.

[Kiwi Dave]

I've believe a conversion to solid lifters for these motors was not practical, but I don't know the reason why this should be so.

You should easily be able to tell whether it has hydraulic lifters by listening for tappet noise.  No noise will confirm they're hydraulic.

But as Wayne says, I'd be more concerned it has only gone 1250 miles in 12 years.  Really?

[Dnaj]

I've believe a conversion to solid lifters for these motors was not practical, but I don't know the reason why this should be so.

You should easily be able to tell whether it has hydraulic lifters by listening for tappet noise.  No noise will confirm they're hydraulic.

But as Wayne says, I'd be more concerned it has only gone 1250 miles in 12 years.  Really?

A VIN audit report confirms the actual mileage and comes up clean, two owners from new. 1152 miles in 2007 under the original owner, yearly renewals through then with few or no miles consecutively each year  and the bike shows an expired 2013 tag to the current owner who drove less than a 100 miles. Current owner has a warehouse with mostly cars and a few bikes. Looks really like it's been sitting that long.

[Vasco DG]

Is it correct to say that the second fix was to replace the came with a hardened cam but the final was to convert to solid lifters? And that some folks love a corrected hydro while others won't touch them? I don't understand the 2nd versus final fixes.

No. The problem were multiple with the hydro top end but the final cure was NOT to go to solid lifters which, as has been said, is not practical as the tappets are of a completely different design.

There were, as far as I know, three *Fixes*.

The first involved simply adding shims under the hydraulic lifters. No idea why some clown thought that would work. It didn't.

Second fix involved new cam, lifters, springs, caps and adjustable rockers.

Third fix involved the above and also the new cam had cross drillings in the cam lobes for greater flank lubrication.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Mark had one at MGC when I was out there. He told me he couldn't sell it to someone.. cam, triple, clutch. He parted it out.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Don't walk away. RUN AWAY! I had an 03 stone with the cam problem.  They(fixed it) with shims.  BFD!
 All that worn metal had been circulating through the engine while I rode it about 4 thousand miles.  Then all they did was shims?  RUN AWAY!  If they give it to you free and you can afford a NEW engine with the better clutch, maybe.

[Dnaj]

No. The problem were multiple with the hydro top end but the final cure was NOT to go to solid lifters which, as has been said, is not practical as the tappets are of a completely different design.

There were, as far as I know, three *Fixes*.

The first involved simply adding shims under the hydraulic lifters. No idea why some clown thought that would work. It didn't.

Second fix involved new cam, lifters, springs, caps and adjustable rockers.

Third fix involved the above and also the new cam had cross drillings in the cam lobes for greater flank lubrication.

Pete

Thank you.

Ok, so I think I got it. The 2nd fix would be a new cam, different material but the final fix would be another new cam, drilled better and the adjusters broken off? Do I have that right?  This bike has no warranty info in the MG database so they might have done either the first or second fix at the factory but 'twas latter than that when the final fix was developed, hence no recall. Might that be it?

Funny, I had an 03 EV with the good clutch and "not covered by the recall" and it was fine for many years. I never even pulled the valve cover off. Don't think I dug into it that much.

[Chuck in Indiana]

the final fix would be another new cam, drilled better and the adjusters broken off? Do I have that right? 

As far as I know. Mark had an EV, btw  that had never been touched with 40K miles on it. He scrounged up a kit and sold that one, so apparently not all of them failed.

[Dilliw]

As far as I know. Mark had an EV, btw  that had never been touched with 40K miles on it. He scrounged up a kit and sold that one, so apparently not all of them failed.

My bike had over 30k on it before the fix.  Wayne might have had even more.  If I was going to take a flyer on a hydro I'd be popping the inspection plug to see if it had single or dual plates as that might be the first issue you face.  Oh and check the number on the triple tree.

[Wayne Orwig]

There were, as far as I know, three *Fixes*.

The first involved simply adding shims under the hydraulic lifters. No idea why some clown thought that would work. It didn't.

Second fix involved new cam, lifters, springs, caps and adjustable rockers.

Third fix involved the above and also the new cam had cross drillings in the cam lobes for greater flank lubrication.

The order I encountered in the USA was a bit different.

First was the goofy shims under the plungers.
Second was a cam with more oil feed holes.
Third was the same cam, new lifters, springs caps and adjustable rockers.

Mine had 30,000 miles with no failure. Added the kit and now at 120,000 miles.

BTW, there are a number of 'recalls' so the tech person may be confused. After all, this was all over a decade ago. Piaggio employees don't normally hang on that long. 

[Wayne Orwig]

My bike had over 30k on it before the fix.  Wayne might have had even more.  If I was going to take a flyer on a hydro I'd be popping the inspection plug to see if it had single or dual plates as that might be the first issue you face.  Oh and check the number on the triple tree.

The triple tree is a safety thing, which that may be required to still cover.
The valve upgrade wasn't even a recall, so it is all good will.

[Dnaj]

My bike had over 30k on it before the fix.  Wayne might have had even more.  If I was going to take a flyer on a hydro I'd be popping the inspection plug to see if it had single or dual plates as that might be the first issue you face.  Oh and check the number on the triple tree.

The triple tree is a recall.  Piaggio said they would cover that. Parts are still available and they are willing. If I can confirm the clutch,  I'm prolly gonna take a flyer and get it. Glad to know Piaggo is still covering what they can. Maybe I'll get lucky. One ce it confirm the clutch, I'll let everyone know. Mileage is still low enough to save this bike methinks. More thoughts welcome. I'm not new to Goose.

[Wayne Orwig]

The triple tree is a recall.  Piaggio said they would cover that. Parts are still available and they are willing. If I can confirm the clutch,  I'm prolly gonna take a flyer and get it. Glad to know Piaggo is still covering what they can. Maybe I'll get lucky. One ce it confirm the clutch, I'll let everyone know. Mileage is still low enough to save this bike methinks. More thoughts welcome. I'm not new to Goose.

Maybe the miles are just low because those ITI odometer failed so easily.

If you get a hydraulic lifter bike with the bugs ironed out, they are great. But the single plate clutch, valve issue, cracking lower triple clamp, and 5000 mile odometer, sure did make them hard to get right.

[Vasco DG]

The order I encountered in the USA was a bit different.

First was the goofy shims under the plungers.
Second was a cam with more oil feed holes.
Third was the same cam, new lifters, springs caps and adjustable rockers.

Mine had 30,000 miles with no failure. Added the kit and now at 120,000 miles.

BTW, there are a number of 'recalls' so the tech person may be confused. After all, this was all over a decade ago. Piaggio employees don't normally hang on that long. 

May well be troof there. As you say it was a long time ago, I may well of got it arse about.

As Wayne sez the Hydro's, if good, are very, very good. It's just that if they are bad they are horrid!

I still reckon that motor is the one that should of been in the Norge.......

Pete

[Rox]

If you love the bike that much buy it and get it repaired by a proper mechanic. It'll cost you but in the end you'l know that bike is proper..

If not? Walk. That whole hydraulic lifter scandal is some sticky crap... 


These are great bikes with great motors once sorted out. What it all comes out to is if you want to deal with sorting it out.

[johnr]

Must admit, I don't quite get it. If the subject bikes vin number was not one that was required for recall, why should Dnaj worry about this aspect of it? (other than to check that is in fact the case)

[Dilliw]

Must admit, I don't quite get it. If the subject bikes vin number was not one that was required for recall, why should Dnaj worry about this aspect of it? (other than to check that is in fact the case)

For a 2003 Aluminum the assumption here is that the bike is a hydro (99% probability but with Guzzi nothing is 100%).  Without popping the cover you don't know if Piaggio's records are wrong (50% probability they are).

If the bike sat on a showroom floor for a while it could be that the cam fix was done before it was delivered.  The dealer here had several bikes like that around the 2005-2006 time frame when the kits started rolling in.  One bike I remember was bought in 2004 then returned in 2006 with hardly any miles as the owner fell ill; the dealer kitted it and sold it a couple of years later.

At the price you are probably getting it for (it's a 2003 now) I would consider rolling the dice on a hydro.  Lots of them made it many miles without self destructing and at average cruiser bike miles you will might get a good 5 years without issue.  But I wouldn't gamble on a hydro with a single plate.  That's pushing it too much.

[jackson]

I was considering the purchase of the identical model & year Guzzi around 9 months ago.  The owner said that the hydro problem had been fixed but he had no paperwork to prove it.  Called a dealer & they also had no record.  Owner also told me that it had the dual clutch so I asked him to take a picture through the inspection hole and guess what?  It had a single clutch; NO SALE.
Unless you can verify the hydro work or lack or that it never needed it & a dual clutch, you could wind up spending a LOT of money on this bike.

[cookiemech]

I had exactly the same situation two years ago. Bought a 2003 Aluminium with 2800 miles, the cleanest, nicest example you'd ever see. Checked the clutch through the inspection hole; dual-plate, so OK. Owner (completely trustworthy person) said he took it to the local dealer in 2005 or 2006 for the recall (which one???), which the dealer claimed he had done.

Brought it home and pulled valve covers. Guess what? No recall had been done (at least not the final one). Checked with Piaggio, who said that this VIN was not subject to any recall.

The dealer near Harrisburg to which you refer is a GREAT dealer. That's who fought with Piaggio to pay for the recall work (yes, I know a "recall" means a mandatory safety campaign, and this was otherwise). I hauled the bike out there last autumn and they did the work over the winter. The tech said that even at the low miles (about 4000 at the time), failure was close.

So you cannot trust Piaggio if they tell you it's not subject to any updates. You have to see with your own eyes, or with the eyes of a good mechanic.

[bigbikerrick]

I have an 03 Aluminum with 30K miles and love the bike. ran 10 k miles no problems, then had the recall done on the cam, etc. this bike came with the 2 plate clutch, and the lower triple clamp was not involved in the recall, Ive checked it for cracks, none found.  Solid bike that runs beautifully, and has been completely reliable for me. If you get the bike cheap, it may be worth the risk....a well sorted hydro is a sweet thing, with incredible low rpm smoothness/torque. I use mine to pull my hack with 7:33 gears, and that rig with run down the freeway at 75 all day long without a hiccup.
Rick

[Curtis Harper]

What is the VIN?

[Dnaj]

I did confirm the clutch was the good one and I brought the bike home. I spoke with several Guzzi dealers and each said that it did not fall under the affected bikes. Some  were fixed Stateside by Guzzi factory mechanics prior to sale, others before they left the factory. The assumption is that if your bike is outside the program, your bike is OK. However, that assumption however is wrong.

A knowledgable regional rep acknowledged not all of the problematic hydro bikes were covered. That's a pretty big admission.

My bike was sold in February 2003, which gives it a build date in late 2002, one of the early problematic hydros yet it is not covered.

The special tool kit runs $340. The part number for the cam kit is superseded. The new number is 887349. The dealer cost is 1700. Can anyone confirm these costs and that there is no place with discounts?

Mine is clearly an un corrected hydro. Pix follow. I'm told untouched hydros had no provision to adjust the valves. The kit has valve adjusters which break off purposely once the valves are correctly adjusted.

Mine was parked after it developed a valve tick in The left  side. The owner said he ran two-up with his wife and the tick started, so he parked it. It's weird, that even a bad "soft" cam should not wear at 1250 miles, so I will probably want to diagnose that before dealing with the potential cam problem. Pix follow.






Here is a link to the video, to listen to the valve tap. Doesn't sound good.
http://tinyurl.com/j4hnf2l