8V tappet wear? This is about as bad as it gets......

[Vasco DG]

This is a 1200 Sport 8V, 23,000Km. Owner bought it in today. Seemed a bit dubious about my insistence that he needed it inspecting and was pissed because he was planning a two day trip with a mate next week. He hung around to watch the disassembly and I think he was glad he took my advice.



Big pic so you can get all the gory detail.

The bike sounded like a grain header with a bale of barbed wire inside it when it arrived. I really can't see how he didn't get it was rooted but who expects their 20,000 km bike to be terminally damaged? The worry is that it sounds to me like its done its bottom end already. The top end was so awful though I won't be able to tell until its rollerised.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

Geez. That is a lot of ground off metal.

[56Pan]

Man!  That is big time ugly.

[pebra]

Aw shit. -  and no warranty, I assume?

[Vasco DG]

Ne. Kit will be supplied as all the criteria have been met. Yes, there will be the cost of installation but I'm getting pretty good at it.....

Pete

[acogoff]

     Unfortunately, I would bet there is no more than a handful of screws salvageable inside that engine if that.. I would assume with that much debris, the oil filter would be overwhelmed  and the oil pump is all scored up and little oil pressure. Minutes away from rod out the side, looks like. Sad deal! I hope I am wrong.

[Vasco DG]

When you think of the damage a leg out of bed is very unlikely. Just about every other beastly and expensive failure is more likely to be the endgame.

Pete

[molly]

Those 1200 Sports went belly up earlier than most here in rain sodden Blighty. Surely with that amount of damage a new engine should be offered if other parts are damaged.

[lucian]

And yet it still ran, one tough lump. What's it take to kill one dead?    Besides one of these 

[Perazzimx14]

The only time it gets worse is when you hand the customer a bill for the labor to fix a known defect.

[Bill Havins]

Heavy sigh.  I hope your customer appreciates your insight.  Of course, right now, I bet all he can do is spit fire.

[guzzisteve]

Looks as bad as some of the original tappet fixes from 09, when the tappets didn't spin & were a bit too flat.    Wonder if it fell into that Vin range, maybe unchanged from that fix. Shits been going on for 7yrs now.

[ohiorider]

To my knowledge, I've never had an engine big end fail.  I suppose all it would take to wreck all the connecting rod big ends and crank mains would be for one bearing to really get gouged.  Wouldn't that cause engine pressure throughout the engine to drop, perhaps to the point where the vital layer of oil that resides between bearing and journal under pressure couldn't keep the metal parts from rubbing together?  Or am I overplaying this?

[Wayne Orwig]

Pump 'pressure' isn't exactly what keep the metal bits apart.

[jlburgess]

That is ugly.  I would hope that Piaggio will take some preventative action based on that photo and the sheer number of failures.  It's so obviously a design defect.  My bike has yet to be started since being declared good to go.  Pfft!

[Vasco DG]

It's not going to happen John. I know that to some my statement of this fact is interpreted as my somehow defending the company but I'm not. I'm simply stating a fact. This is an organizations that seems to have deliberately kept selling a product for at least two years knowing it was going to fail. Do you really think they are going to behave honourably?

Pete

[ohiorider]

Pump 'pressure' isn't exactly what keep the metal bits apart.

Hi, Wayne ...... guess I kind of knew that ....... that (correct me if I'm wrong on this) a thin film of oil is somewhat pushed hydrostatically round and round the bearing, between shell and journal, as the engine rotates ..... it's been a long time since I've read an article on this. 

I guess what I was asking was ............. if a bearing is scored very badly, and it caused low oil pressure at that bearing, would it affect pressure throughout the system that could cause bearings that weren't scored to fail due to lack of lubrication?  I guess the answer is 'probably not,'  unless pressure was reaaaalllly low.

[ohiorider]

Has anyone, out of sheer curiosity, pulled the cam box(es) on a higher mileage roller engine and checked the condition of the roller tappets and cams?  There must be a bunch of rollers on the road, considering they hit the streets sometime in mid 2012.

It'd be interesting to read a few examples.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Has anyone, out of sheer curiosity, pulled the cam box(es) on a higher mileage roller engine and checked the condition of the roller tappets and cams?  There must be a bunch of rollers on the road, considering they hit the streets sometime in mid 2012.

It'd be interesting to read a few examples.

Sure would. Nobody ever figured out the small block 4V as far as I know. Several have thought they did. I sincerely hope we aren't looking at the same scenario.

[Vasco DG]

Jesus! Some of you wont be happy ever. Four years in production and not a single reported failure of the roller system but it can't be trusted.

I'm sure that if every single roller bike so far produced was stripped and inspected and a solitary example had slight blemishes on any part of the cambox assembly it would immediately be seen as conclusive proof that the roller system was shit too.

Let's face it, in circumstances like this some people will never be satisfied!

If anybody has a high mileage roller bike and would like to bring it to my shop I'll happily pull a cambox for a looksee but I know exactly what would happen. I'd find nothing and then I'd be told "Oh well! that's only one example!" Or I'd be accused of lying...

Pete

[beetle]

Quit while your ahead, Pete.

[Cool Runnings]

Quit while your ahead, Pete.

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sorry, Pete.. I truly didn't mean to imply that you didn't know what was going on. *Probably* the roller conversion is the answer, but *we* ARE the Reliability Lab engineers for Guzzi. It may not be right, but it is what it is.
For instance, in GF's big twins book, he mentions the good doctor putting the front wheel against a wall, opening the throttle, and seeing what blows up first. 
That's a little crude, but at least it is something. What it doesn't do, is tell what happens years and thousands of miles down the road.
I spent much of my life as an engineering model maker for GM. Much of what I did was working with the reliability lab engineers. Tests were devised to simulate what would happen under the worst circumstances over a period of time. There was nothing altruistic about this, the goal was to make it past the warranty period. 
For instance, I've not seen any Guzzi electrical system that would pass the salt spray test. Doesn't take long, just a week in a chamber sprayed by high volume air and salt/water. The test fixtures look like they're a hundred years old after that. I'm pretty sure from looking at every Guzzi I've had that they don't *have* a reliability lab. None of their electrical systems would pass that test.
I only said that it would be instructive to look at some high mileage roller engines. That's all.. certainly no offense intended or implied.

[ohiorider]

As with me.  I asked the question re whether any roller engines had been examined only in the hope that a few positive stories about high mileage engines would emerge.  Stories that hopefully would say ' this bike has 25,000 miles on the new roller engine, and upon examination, the tappets and camshafts look like new.' 

I harbor no ill will for the MG brand, and only wish for their success. 

[Vasco DG]

Sorry, Pete.. I truly didn't mean to imply that you didn't know what was going on. *Probably* the roller conversion is the answer, but *we* ARE the Reliability Lab engineers for Guzzi. It may not be right, but it is what it is.
For instance, in GF's big twins book, he mentions the good doctor putting the front wheel against a wall, opening the throttle, and seeing what blows up first. 
That's a little crude, but at least it is something. What it doesn't do, is tell what happens years and thousands of miles down the road.
I spent much of my life as an engineering model maker for GM. Much of what I did was working with the reliability lab engineers. Tests were devised to simulate what would happen under the worst circumstances over a period of time. There was nothing altruistic about this, the goal was to make it past the warranty period. 
For instance, I've not seen any Guzzi electrical system that would pass the salt spray test. Doesn't take long, just a week in a chamber sprayed by high volume air and salt/water. The test fixtures look like they're a hundred years old after that. I'm pretty sure from looking at every Guzzi I've had that they don't *have* a reliability lab. None of their electrical systems would pass that test.
I only said that it would be instructive to look at some high mileage roller engines. That's all.. certainly no offense intended or implied.

I realise that Chuck. Its just that some people really want Guzzi to fail and take a peculiar glee in anticipating disaster even when all the evidence suggests there is no disaster in the offing.

You're 5th gear dog left today BTW.

pete

[krglorioso]

It's curious to me that Guzzi warranteed the "hydro" models of 2003-2004 and until rather recently still would, apparently, but seems indifferent to offering the same level of repair to the flat tappet 8v engines.  It also seems strange to me that Guzzi ran as fast as they could from the very nice hydro engines which, when sorted, are lovely, reliable engines, as Pete has confirmed.  I cannot imagine why the 1400 engines are not hydros.  But then, what do I know?

Ralph

[Vasco DG]

That would require a complete redesign of the camboxes, the solid lifters work just fine, why change? Its not as if adjusting the valves is time consuming or difficult.

pete

[rboe]

Marketing pressures. The Indian, Victory, Harley and other cruisers are hydro valves.  It would not have been a bad move to make the California engine a hydro also. 

[guzzisteve]

Pete,    Would the roller motor be classified as a pushrod engine, them lil rods are now a fork & roller? Just wondering if it would change the class if someone was to take one to the salt.

[Vasco DG]

Buggered if I know Steve. It's definitely not what would traditionally be termed an OHV motor.

Pete