Death Risks of Motorcycles

[Sasquatch Jim]

Are you advocating that we should not take showers?

 That would just make us those damn dirty bikers.

Death is just natures way of telling you that you have reached the end of your road.
 We all get there sooner or later.  What counts is how well you enjoyed the ride.

[lucian]

I am sorry for your loss Leafman. You can only be so safe when your doing something inherently dangerous, the rest I believe is beyond our control. I think a lot while I am riding about the people I have known personally who have met tragedy on a motorcycle.  One a friend from high school who was killed, another, a nephew of a good friend who was parallelized at age 19. I also think of all the other people in my life that passed early from many other causes.  I miss them every day and feel obligated to enjoy the precious gift of time granted me regardless of risks.  I know they all would still be doing the same given the chance. I also think a lot about riding two up with my wife on back, I have mixed feelings about the risks of my daughter loosing both parents at once, but I think it's probably about the same risk I take riding in a car with her driving!!  Don't dwell on the negative too long, and enjoy thinking of them as you ride, knowing they would be right with you if they still could.   dave 

[oldbike54]

 Experts call the decision to participate in risky activities as "managing risk" . Managed risk is a part of daily life , operating machinery , taking a shower , having sex , all of these activities are dangerous .
I never encourage anyone to engage in the sport of motorcycling , those that find riding compelling will do so , no matter the risk , and those that don't won't . I haven't jumped out of an aircraft since leaving the military , the risk/reward ratio was out of whack , although lots of folks enjoy jumping out of a perfectly good planes   

 Dusty

[leafman60]

Do you know where on the Cherohala the crash occurred?

I couple of years back I was riding with a friend and he crashed at a place called "No Name Gap". Talking to the officer that wrote up the report, he said that was a VERY common crash spot. And we noticed that the hillside going around the curve was littered with broken vehicle parts.

When I was up there a few months ago, that curve now has a number of solar powered flashing lights. Something motivated them to upgrade the signs.

No, I don't think that's the location of his accident.

[leafman60]

I think it is better to go quickly, doing something you love,

My friend who was killed on the Cherohala would constantly make this sort of statement. Only a day or two before his death he chuckled and told several of us, "If anything ever happens to me on one of my motorcycles, at least I was doing what I like to do!"

He was quite fond of saying that and I have heard him say it many times. It was so frequent that several people wondered if his demise was really an accident - it was. 

Recently, another mutual friend showed me a text he had received a short time before the accident that included a picture of the ill-fated friend's hand pointing to a map of Colorado with a caption that read "Next year, if I am not dead, this is where I will be."

He was only 52 and I suspect a lot of those statements were from authentic feelings but also a substantial assumption that such a thing would not befell him. It did. He left a wife and kids. And, well, hey, is it really all okay because he was "doing what he loved to do?"

Just philosophizing here.

[lucydad]

Leaf,

I am sorry for your loss.  A cluster like this is difficult, indeed.  I don't have much to say, Kev pretty much nailed it.

However, I will add:  "fear is the enemy".  Don't live life in fear of doing what you love. 

blessings,

LD

[oldbike54]

My friend who was killed on the Cherohala would constantly make this sort of statement. Only a day or two before his death he chuckled and told several of us, "If anything ever happens to me on one of my motorcycles, at least I was doing what I like to do!"

He was quite fond of saying that and I have heard him say it many times. It was so frequent that several people wondered if his demise was really an accident - it was. 

Recently, another mutual friend showed me a text he had received a short time before the accident that included a picture of the ill-fated friend's hand pointing to a map of Colorado with a caption that read "Next year, if I am not dead, this is where I will be."

He was only 52 and I suspect a lot of those statements were from authentic feelings but also a substantial assumption that such a thing would not befell him. It did. He left a wife and kids. And, well, hey, is it really all okay because he was "doing what he loved to do?"

Just philosophizing here.

 It almost sounds as if you are angry with your friend for dying while doing something he loved . Hopefully we all leave loved ones behind when exiting this mortal coil .

 Dusty

[Triple Jim]

At the risk of a "Teal Deer" post:

Defensive driving, or whatever one wants to call it, when done well, takes quite a bit of effort.  You have to always assume that a blind curve will have a tractor pulling out, that all cars you pass will turn in front of you, and that in general, no one will know you're there.  Essentially all other drivers are out to kill you.  Wearing bright colors is good for safety, but if they're what's keeping you alive, you're not riding safely, because you're expecting other drivers to see you and they won't. 

My daughter recently became a motorcyclist, and I'm trying to teach her what I can about safety.  I was riding behind her a couple weeks ago, and we passed an intersection with a road to the right.  A car was on our road, facing us in the other lane, waiting to turn on the intersecting road, and another car was at the stop sign on the other road, waiting to pull out.  My daughter proceeded through the intersection at the speed limit, 45 mph. 

Later I told her that I assumed one of the cars was going to turn in front of us, and had slowed and been ready to stop quickly.  I asked her why she had not done that, and she said it was because the two cars had been stopped for a while, and it was clear that they were waiting for us to pass.  I countered by explaining that the two cars may have simply been waiting for each other, doing the "you first" dance, and could at any instant have started moving into our path.  It must have meant something to her, because on our next ride, she did the right thing under similar circumstances, slowing to the point that she could avoid a crash if a car entered her lane.

A large portion of "the car pulled out in front of me, causing a crash" situations can be avoided if we're willing to prepare for that event every time the possibility exists.  Once you do it a few hundred times, it becomes more or  less automatic, and not so much work.

[Rough Edge racing]

And a corollary: isn't our willingness to accept the danger of motorcycling part of what differentiates us from everybody else? I feel that recognition every time a stranger approaches me to talk just because I'm on a bike, and they're not.

 I would say that's generally true.. and it gives you a bit of swagger doesn't it?  Live is short and often dangerous...

[malik]

I was chatting with a bloke at a stop one trip - he says "You'll never catch me on a motorcycle. It's much too dangerous." He is a base jumper. Climbs mountains & buildings just to jump off.

Three of my motorcycling friends died last year. Serious motorcyclists, all in their mid fifties. One on his bike, the other two from heart attacks & no prior medical history. Life is just too short NOT to ride.

[bad Chad]

I'll go a step further. You can't ELIMINATE all risk anyway.

Sure you can eliminate the risk from motorcycling, but people die in car crashes too.

And pedestrians get killed too... and people fall from ladders...and then there's heart disease. You can run for health, but you might get hit by a car etc.

Life is a constant balancing act of risk vs. reward.

Pick your poison and take your chances.

Simple but true!

[Sheepdog]

After years of telling me that I was going to kill myself on "those damned motorcycles", my mom fell and destroyed her femur at a church quilting group meeting! Granted, I've broken a few bones, too...but none of mine required plates and screws.

[rocker59]

"I may only last a year and a day, but how long do you wanna live, anyway?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6eNsbzcTuo&list=RD_6eNsbzcTuo

[Scud]

Just my point of view here - but I've never subscribed to the "at least he died doing something he loved" thing. If a person was still able to do the activity, then life was cut too short (IMO). Death is final (also my belief system). I worry about riders who bring up their own possible death too much - as it seems one person in this thread may have done. I worry about them riding with fear and then creating conditions where they are more likely to be involved in an accident. Again - not saying that was the case with any example in this thread - just making a general observation.

[Shorty]

Perception. Sliding sideways in a Miata  or doing a loop in a light aircraft seems so much safer than riding a motorcycle.  I have nothing cocky to say. I'm too superstitious.  Sorry about your buddies.

[Randown]

"I may only last a year and a day, but how long do you wanna live, anyway?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6eNsbzcTuo&list=RD_6eNsbzcTuo

Yeah but it's easy to say you don't care to be old when you're young. 33 years later in their mid fifties I doubt they feel they've lived enough now. 

I noticed the word "sport" used a couple times in this thread - that's a stretch for most of us, unless you're competing or training to compete we're just hobbyists.

So, we're hobbyists playing with fire, why? Because it is entertaining. If someone told me that's irrational & dysfunctional I wouldn't argue. Just being honest.

[O]

At the risk of a "Teal Deer" post:

Defensive driving, or whatever one wants to call it, when done well, takes quite a bit of effort.  You have to always assume that a blind curve will have a tractor pulling out, that all cars you pass will turn in front of you, and that in general, no one will know you're there.  Essentially all other drivers are out to kill you.  Wearing bright colors is good for safety, but if they're what's keeping you alive, you're not riding safely, because you're expecting other drivers to see you and they won't. 

My daughter recently became a motorcyclist, and I'm trying to teach her what I can about safety.  I was riding behind her a couple weeks ago, and we passed an intersection with a road to the right.  A car was on our road, facing us in the other lane, waiting to turn on the intersecting road, and another car was at the stop sign on the other road, waiting to pull out.  My daughter proceeded through the intersection at the speed limit, 45 mph. 

Later I told her that I assumed one of the cars was going to turn in front of us, and had slowed and been ready to stop quickly.  I asked her why she had not done that, and she said it was because the two cars had been stopped for a while, and it was clear that they were waiting for us to pass.  I countered by explaining that the two cars may have simply been waiting for each other, doing the "you first" dance, and could at any instant have started moving into our path.  It must have meant something to her, because on our next ride, she did the right thing under similar circumstances, slowing to the point that she could avoid a crash if a car entered her lane.

A large portion of "the car pulled out in front of me, causing a crash" situations can be avoided if we're willing to prepare for that event every time the possibility exists.  Once you do it a few hundred times, it becomes more or  less automatic, and not so much work.

Nailed it.  This is how I ride every time I go out.  I ride quickly when safe to do so, but I assume every car is trying to kill me, and every blind curve hides a hazard of some sort.  Right of way can't hold a candle to physics + driver stupidity.  I don't pretend this eliminates all risks, but it sure helps to mitigate them.

[Triple Jim]

Nailed it.  This is how I ride every time I go out.  I ride quickly when safe to do so, but I assume every car is trying to kill me, and every blind curve hides a hazard of some sort.  Right of way can't hold a candle to physics + driver stupidity.  I don't pretend this eliminates all risks, but it sure helps to mitigate them.

You obviously get it.  As an elective in college, I took a driver education class.  It was a safe driving course, and was one of the required courses for Maryland driving instructors.  On the first day, the instructor told us he'd be teaching us so many techniques of safe driving that if we always practiced all of them properly when driving, it would be too much work and we'd quit driving.  He went on to say that to be reasonably safe drivers, we needed to practice the techniques as much as is tolerable.  Probably the most important thing he taught us was if you want to reduce the chance of collisions to near zero,  you can never go faster than would allow you to avoid any possible dangerous event that could possibly pop up.

He was also the one who made me understand that anyone who thinks he's a very safe driver doesn't understand what it takes to achieve a high level of driving safety.  Once you understand what it takes to be as safe as possible, you realize that on average, you're not driving anywhere near that level.

He was right, of course.  A good part of the course was spent driving, with him in the passenger seat, evaluating how well we were practicing his techniques.  Fifteen minutes of that was enough to make me happy that it was the next guy's turn. 

[blackcat]

I assume that every human and animal is trying to kill me when I ride the bike.

Funny, but I feel the same way(sans the animal) when I have to get some medical work done too.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I assume that every human and animal is trying to kill me when I ride the bike.

Funny, but I feel the same way(sans the animal) when I have to get some medical work done too.

Yep. I realized when I first started riding that I was invisible, so I'd better be prepared for that. So far, so good..

[segesta]

Aside:
Re: astronaut falling in the shower. That was John Glenn. Happened in 1964, just after his Mercury program days. It actually messed him up pretty bad.

Sorry, I'm a geek about this stuff. I should check his Wikipedia page to make sure.

[rocker59]

Yeah but it's easy to say you don't care to be old when you're young. 33 years later in their mid fifties I doubt they feel they've lived enough now. 

 

The longer you live, the longer you wanna live?

[Randown]

The longer you live, the longer you wanna live?

Not at all. Just saying for example 60 can seem old to a 20 YO, that's three lifetimes for him. So it's easy for him to extol the virtues of the NOW.  BUT when you arrive at 60 you'd like at least a few more b-days, then when you arrive at that age you'd like a few more & so on. THAT'S how it goes more often than not.

[kirkemon]

A few manufacturers have been testing air-bag technology for motorcyclists.
Since you said that the impact is what killed them, I wonder if an air-bag jacket or vest would have made any difference?
http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/street/

[LarryinKC]

My thoughts after some 50+ years of riding.

Skill can keep you from getting hurt.

Luck keeps you from getting killed.

[Kev m]

I was chatting with a bloke at a stop one trip - he says "You'll never catch me on a motorcycle. It's much too dangerous." He is a base jumper. Climbs mountains & buildings just to jump off.

Two somewhat related stories.

Working up the courage for a 12 story bungee jump in Vegas years ago a European tourist looking at the tower told us he couldn't do it. He went on that he jumps out of planes regularly, but this was "too close". On the jump we could choose to hit the water in the pool below if we wanted, only my head went in.


I grew up with a close knit group of friends. One said he'd play the lottery and drop out of school of he won, and said the same thing in college, and the same thing in law school. Along the way he also explained that he'd go to college and law school and if he didn't win, screw it, he'd be a lawyer and live happily ever after. I cried hard the day I heard he was dead, of brain cancer, before his 30th birthday.

There are no guarantees...

[swordds]

At the risk of a "Teal Deer" post:

Defensive driving, or whatever one wants to call it, when done well, takes quite a bit of effort.  You have to always assume that a blind curve will have a tractor pulling out, that all cars you pass will turn in front of you, and that in general, no one will know you're there.  Essentially all other drivers are out to kill you.  Wearing bright colors is good for safety, but if they're what's keeping you alive, you're not riding safely, because you're expecting other drivers to see you and they won't. 

My daughter recently became a motorcyclist, and I'm trying to teach her what I can about safety.  I was riding behind her a couple weeks ago, and we passed an intersection with a road to the right.  A car was on our road, facing us in the other lane, waiting to turn on the intersecting road, and another car was at the stop sign on the other road, waiting to pull out.  My daughter proceeded through the intersection at the speed limit, 45 mph. 

Later I told her that I assumed one of the cars was going to turn in front of us, and had slowed and been ready to stop quickly.  I asked her why she had not done that, and she said it was because the two cars had been stopped for a while, and it was clear that they were waiting for us to pass.  I countered by explaining that the two cars may have simply been waiting for each other, doing the "you first" dance, and could at any instant have started moving into our path.  It must have meant something to her, because on our next ride, she did the right thing under similar circumstances, slowing to the point that she could avoid a crash if a car entered her lane.

A large portion of "the car pulled out in front of me, causing a crash" situations can be avoided if we're willing to prepare for that event every time the possibility exists.  Once you do it a few hundred times, it becomes more or  less automatic, and not so much work.

OK, so you are driving along and a person from the other direction is slowing or stopped obviously prepared to turn left or waiting at a stop sign at an intersection, but apparently waiting for you to pass before doing so, so you slow down so now that person has misjudged your speed and you are taking longer to pass then they thought you would so now you are actually tempting them to cut accross or pull out?  In a boat the stand on vessel maintains their course and speed so the give way vessel can appropriately judge what they are doing (of course both vessels are obligated to do everything necessary to avoid a collision).  I am just saying, you can cover your breaks and clutch and maybe roll off the throttle and consider escape options but at some point you need to commit and go through intersections; or do you slow to the point for every left turning vehicle that you "play chicken" with them until they go?  Your daughter went through the intersection at the speed limit. How much slower were you going or did you wait for the intersection to clear before proceeding through it?  Sorry to sound argumentative but it is not like everybody who gets clipped at an intersection wasn't driving defensively or could have avoided the accident. As I said, at some point you commit and go and you have to assume at that point that the other person has seen you and will remain stopped. Either that or you would have to stop and yield to every vehicle that is potentially going to cross your path at any intersection?

[Triple Jim]

I slowed to about 35, which would have allowed me to stop in a little less than 60 feet if necessary.  I considered that a short enough distance that the risk was pretty low.  Even if one of the cars had quickly blocked my path, at the speed I was going I had a good chance of steering behind it.  Not slowing and continuing at 45 mph when two cars were both waiting to move into our path was definitely not a good choice.  I'm nearly certain that neither driver had any idea I had slowed down ten MPH.  For reference, estimated stopping distance at 45 is just under 100 feet.

I definitely try to avoid situations in which I have to "commit and go", as you said, if it makes my life depend on the actions other drivers.    It's not necessary to stop and yield to every vehicle that is potentially going to cross my path at any intersection, only to drive in a way that lets me avoid a collision if the other guy does the wrong thing.

[Rough Edge racing]

 How about some statistics....

        http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/motorcycles/fatalityfacts/motorcycles

[charlie b]

I had a scare with cancer when in my 40's.  Taught me a lot, mainly about what is important in life (family and friends).  I also made peace with myself over death.  Yep, one day it will get you.  Don't know when, don't know how.  Until then I will enjoy what I have.

Risk?  As some have pointed out, you can put yourself in a bubble and still die tomorrow.  You can slip on the ice leaving the house and crack your skull on the pavement.  You can go out on the bike, hit an oil spot and slam into a guard rail.  A drunk driver can hit your car.

Some feel that they need the rush of tempting death, the closer the better.  Many of those die young.  Their choice.