Death Risks of Motorcycles

[Markcarovilli]

I'm a firm believer that the risk of motorcycling can be reduced to an acceptable and reasonable level.  But you have to be hyper vigilant, skilled, and constantly learning and improving. 

And you have to get out of the car driver's mindset which constantly thinks in terms of who is right or wrong, who has the right of way, what the other guy "should" do if he's not an idiot, etc.  No.  Put that thinking aside.   Accept absolute, full, 100% responsibility for protecting yourself, which includes aggressively preventing other people putting you at risk.

I think a lot of people get hurt on motorcycles because they are so used to driving cars that they unthinkingly apply this car-driver mindset to riding a bike.   But the bike is a totally different creature, requiring a very different mindset. 

Here is some data I find relevant.  Think of some of those truck drivers, the ones who log 3 million miles without a single accident.   Sure, a truck is bigger and more visible than a motorcycle, but it's also far less maneuverable, has much worse braking performance, and can't split into small spaces. 

Something is going on there if truck driver can put 3 million miles on the road, and neither hit anyone, nor permit anyone to hit him.  I see no reason why a motorcyclist cannot do the same.   

If nothing else, at least act in such a way that you stay away from the dangerous end of the risk profile--that 3,000,000 mile safe trucker dang sure isn't tailgating constantly, driving buzzed, routinely running 120 mph, regularly testing the absolute limits of traction in corners, etc.

But maybe this is all an elaborate rationalization on my part.   

...this and don't f@$k with mass....

Mark

[ohiorider]

In agreement with this post.  I think it all boils down to an ego thing.  I've ridden with guys who have the 'right of way' mindset.  Most of them have quit riding.  Thank God for them.  There's no place for the big ego, it all comes down to E(energy) = (M)mass  x  (C) velocity squared.  And using this formula, we won't win, if our 'opponent' is much bigger than a Yugo.  And not even then.

[Chuck in Indiana]

That's the trouble I have with all those numbers... they  need to be listed per rider-mile to have much relevance.

"There are liars, DAMN liars, and statisticians.. " 

[jdelv]

I read this thread before giving a presentation last Saturday at the local BMW dealership in Rochester, NY.  I held off responding so that I could post a video of the talk.  It has to do with motorcycle design factors that harm us in forward impact crashes.  From an injury prevention standpoint, helmets and gear are only good once you get ejected.  Soooo much more happens before that, within milliseconds, that might seal your fate from the instant you make contact with the other vehicle.  Have you ever thought about how the motorcycle itself could injure you with your forward momentum while it comes to a sudden stop? 

This is not my smoothest or shortest presentation, but I'm proud to share this w/ the riding community - the Impact of MC Design - https://youtu.be/7tPtQ-6M-0M

[Bud]

     I purchased my first motorcycle in 1980, when I was 20, and rode it for three years, bought a house, got married and had children. I rode the bike less and less and then when the kids came I sold it. During those years I befriended a great guy named Rob. Rob had for children of his own and prior to my meeting him while he was in high school he was a nut on a bike. I looked forward to the day when our kids were grown and we could get bikes and really enjoy ourselves.
     Rob was a carpenter and was picking up his tools at the end of the day and dropped dead at 46 from a massive heart attack. I was 45 and I had two kids in college and one in high school and the next spring I went out and bought a new 750 gixxer, a bike I had always wanted. Later that summer I bought a used Honda Shadow Ace 1100.
     I truly LOVE riding. I own my own business and find it completely relaxing. My oldest son bought a bike nine years ago when he was 20 and we go away for at least one weekend a year, this past September we went to Nova Scotia for a week. My youngest son just bought his first bike this past summer and my middle son wants to get his license so all four of us can go away this year.
     I worry about my kids riding and would be devastated if one of them got seriously hurt or worse. My oldest son loves to ride as much as me and if something happened to him I know like me he would have been doing what he truly loves.
     I ride very defensively and only ride as fast as I can see however any thing can happen. My worst fear is getting hit from behind by some moron texting. Generally speaking I will ride no matter the risks.

[Cam Lay]

Y'know, I agree with just about everything everybody has said. I enjoy the sensations. I enjoy being totally involved in the process of getting from one place to another. I enjoy the swagger, whether it's into McDonald's alone or into the Greasy Burger in Clinton, Arkansas, with the Atlanta tribe.

It's unforgiving and unpredictable and dangerous. And yes, there's a certain pleasure in that, too.

I spent the last week of July in ICU and don't remember much of anything for about three weeks after that. I still suffer from "poor regulation of executive functions" and most of the symptoms of a frontal lobe injury (you can look them up if you're really interested). They normally heal in 12-18 months, though there's a lot of debate in the literature about whether it's actual improvement of just the development of coping skills (make lots of lists, use the reminder app on the phone, stay out of complex and high-stimulus environments). I'm back at work but it's a lot harder than it used to be. It's very hard to learn new things, and a good bit of the more recent things I had learned is gone. It's interesting that the old stuff (the arcane jargon that must be mastered to identify insects, for example) is still there and mostly intact. The brain is a funny thing...

Many of you know me. I've ridden most of my life. I'm a risk-averse ATGATT kind of guy. I had my kid on the back at the time of my accident. I was riding (not that I remember) appropriately for that situation; even more conservatively than usual. (He's fine, other than a substantial loss of interest in motorcycling and an aversion to bighorn sheep...)

There was a thread years ago about "when to quit" or something along those lines. There was some criticism directed at the OP for "giving up." Our friend Marina Gerson (that's how long ago it was) summed it up perfectly: it's your life, and your decision, and it's perfectly fine to decide after a while that you've done something long enough."

You can't control all the risk. And the statistical probabilities apply at the population level only. They don't tell you a thing about how today is going to be. (Though the odds of me hitting another bighorn sheep are probably pretty small...) The question I have trouble with is whether it is worth risking giving up everything else for the pleasure of riding. The jury is still out on that one. I haven't bought a new helmet, but I haven't out the LeMans on the market, either :-)

Your mileage likely will vary,
C

[Buckturgidson]

To me a lot depends on where you live. If I still lived in Indianapolis I would most certainly not ride. Too much risk for mostly riding in a straight line between stoplights. If one is fortunate to live in a less congested area with twisty roads the risk/benefit equation makes way more sense. Deer are my biggest worry.

[blackcat]

I'm not going to read this thread anymore because I have had two nightmares involving motorcycle crashes since this subject has popped up.

[Triple Jim]

Deer are my biggest worry.

Same here, especially around dusk, when I can't bring myself to go the speed limit on the back roads.  I don't ride much after the sun gets low, mainly because of deer.  The last time I found it getting dark and I was still on my way home, I actually got on the highway to avoid deer.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'm not going to read this thread anymore because I have had two nightmares involving motorcycle crashes since this subject has popped up.

I quit reading bike and airplane crash stuff a (really) long time ago.

[sib]

....Have you ever thought about how the motorcycle itself could injure you with your forward momentum while it comes to a sudden stop?

Well, for starters, a friend of a friend is a urological surgeon who specializes in penis repair.  He said that a significant portion of his patients are motorcyclists.  Kinda makes you think twice.

[JBBenson]

Well, for starters, a friend of a friend is a urological surgeon who specializes in penis repair.  He said that a significant portion of his patients are motorcyclists.  Kinda makes you think twice.

A family member is a medical examiner, you are referring to the "Harley Crotch" injury. Not kidding.

[blackcat]

Well, for starters, a friend of a friend is a urological surgeon who specializes in penis repair.  He said that a significant portion of his patients are motorcyclists.  Kinda makes you think twice.

Wasn't that the reason they made gas tank lids open towards the rider.

[Lcarlson]

I'm always sorry to see this thread get started, and glad to see it end. Once you decide to join this club, ENJOY IT. Obsessing about the dangers will just kill the fun, so you might as well just quit and enjoy your shuffleboard matches.

[Triple Jim]

The other side of the coin is that after years of riding without incident, we tend to start to feel like there isn't much risk.  I don't mind being reminded of the risk once in a while.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  If you get killed you won't want to read this thread.

[Gliderjohn]

Glider flying is very much a club experience. Every time you fly you almost always have a group of peers watching you and watching what they can of your flight, especially takeoffs and landings. There is always critiquing going on. When I was a student I really appreciated hearing the banter from the experienced pilots because often I did not have enough experience and knowledge at that point to recognize that errors or bad technique was occurring or what was good technique. Learned a lot that way in a relativlly short period of time.
 Just saying it would have been nice to learn riding that way as you gain much from others' experiences before you have to learn them all the hard way. Always keep trying to learn and improve to reduce those odds of something bad happening.
GliderJohn

[DaSwami]

Everyone has a unique perspective......mi ne is I began riding 5 years ago in my 40's and still in my 40's.....but 50 is just around the corner.

In a way, I'm like a kid again, only wiser.  Riding has kind of been a fountain of youth for me.

Laid down my first bike, a DR650, down on my very first ride, turning too fast and too sharp onto a gravel road.  That will get your attention right quick. 

I just love riding.  There is nothing quite like it.  The freedom, dealing with the elements, the fun factor.  Boiled down to: the acceleration and braking I experience that can't be had on four wheels unless you spend crazy big $$$. 
It's a rush.  But you all know that.

Riding has made me a better "cage" driver by far.  I look way ahead and decipher any clues to trouble before it can affect me.  Defensive to the max.

However, I am lucky I live in rural Montana and traffic issues are nil.  It's the elements, unkept roads and the damm critters that will get you.  Have had three close calls (two deer, one cougar).  The latest one had me locking up the rear tire on my CB1100 at 75mph...all three incidents within 5 miles from home...

I'm different in that I wear a full face helmet and good shoes and gloves but almost always T-shirt and shorts when the weather is warm.  Heavy riding apparel dulls the experience for me.  Riding on SR 28 near Hot Springs in July is such a treat without the heavy clothing. The constant blast of warm air and the white noise in the helmet is so relaxing.  Miles of straight road in the middle of a treeless valley....can't wait for winter to end!

Contrast that with the bikers who are dressed to the hilt in thick leathers and boots but no helmet!!  I see it all the time lol.....how do they do that?

I'm gonna just keep praying for God's protection and keep doing what I'm doing.  I've got the bug bad.....no doubt. 

[Kev m]

Why did you have to go and say SHORTS... UGH...

[sib]

....I'm gonna just keep praying for God's protection and keep doing what I'm doing....

I guess we atheists have to wear more protective gear. 

[Randown]

...
It's a rush.  But you all know that.

... almost always T-shirt and shorts when the weather is warm.  Heavy riding apparel dulls the experience for me.

I'm gonna just keep praying for God's protection and keep doing what I'm doing.

Way too much fodder here, but rather than asking which god offers the most protection & such, please consider air mesh pants & a jacket. They LOOK hot but air flows right through them.

[DaSwami]

Why did you have to go and say SHORTS... UGH...

I bet my legs look better than yours...don't hate!

[Triple Jim]

Way too much fodder here, but rather than asking which god offers the most protection & such, please consider air mesh pants & a jacket. They LOOK hot but air flows right through them.

Right.  When I got a mesh jacket a couple years ago and went for a ride in 80 degree air, I was startled at first about how cool it was.  It still has good protection in the right places, and I've tested that on the supermoto track.

[blackcat]

When it gets to be 90 degree's outside there is always going to be a certain rider that is wearing no shirt, flip-flops, shorts, no gloves and a full face helmet.

They probably think that I'm just as foolish with a set of mesh equipment, but to each their own.

[rocker59]

I wear a full face helmet and good shoes and gloves but almost always T-shirt and shorts when the weather is warm.   

Contrast that with the bikers who are dressed to the hilt in thick leathers and boots but no helmet!!  I see it all the time lol.....how do they do that?

Opposite, yet the same. 

[DaSwami]

Opposite, yet the same.

In terms of being incomplete in gear, I get it.  But no helmet?  Between all the wind blast and the bugs/bees/wasps hitting my eyes/face, how can you ride with optimum concentration?  I've tried it.  Tough to stay truly focused.  Plus, you can "survive" with road rash or broken arms or legs, hard to live with a crushed skull.

For me, a helmet ranks above all.  But as the OP pointed out, there are no guarantees regardless. 

[toaster404]

SmithSwede and OldBike54 seem to have it nicely.

The analogy with flying proves useful.  I recall statistics from working with relocating USAF units to different bases.  We were looking at the impacts (lol) of changing aircraft use patterns.  The statistics on where and how often aircraft of different types and pilots of different experiences contact the ground outside of the airport.  The statistics went way beyond how many events per X sorties or whatever.  What stuck with me was that higher performance machines did not necessarily lead to more bad events, but rather lack of training/experience and number of hours per month.  The most striking correlation seemed directly applicable to motorcycles.  Individuals who were perfectly competent and flew regularly in fairly slow general aviation craft (e.g., Cessna 172) didn't have too much trouble.  The accidents really jumped where pilots 1) flew a relatively high performance aircraft (e.g., Bonanza); 2) had relatively limited hours in said aircraft; and 3) flew less than some number, I think it was 20, hours / month.  The general impression I got from running through numerous reports was that the pilots would simply get behind the aircraft (flying 2 miles ahead of the plane whereas they needed to be 5 miles ahead of the plane) or get distracted by the need to catch up to the plane or by the increased complexity of aircraft.  Other factors were brain fade (I don't know the term used) from concentrating hard for over some time period and failure to recognize changing conditions, either fixed and unfamiliar (e.g., increased topographic variation) or dynamic (e.g., weather changing).

I presented this in short as the biggest risk being from the rising narcissistic professional who does fine in his rented Cessna 150, buys a Cessna 172 and flies often, 25 hours / month, then gets successful and busy and wealthy, and buys something bigger (I know a fellow went from a 150 to an Apache  . . .) and faster and more complicated, but his time is worth something and he gradually stops flying much.  That is a death in waiting.  Takes off, doesn't realize he's flying behind the plane most of the time, picks up a little weather one day and is distracted somewhat, starts to get icing and loses concentration on flying, is making his downwind leg and suddenly realizes his gear are up, puts the gear down, turns to make the upwind leg, doesn't know he has a little ice towards the wingtips, lets his airspeed drop below the ideal zone, keeps the plane banked into the turn and can't figure out why he has to put in so much rudder, and then flips over in a tip-stall induced roll.  He's at 500 ft in a high performance light aircraft with his only option being death.

That is the setting I see on our local roads with some tourists.  50 yo rider who puts on 3000 miles / year and thinks it's a lot (it is, for a busy person who doesn't ride to work), who is a professional (attorney, doctor, accountant) and stepped up to a big Harley/high performance adventure touring bike/sport bike from something more laid back lighter smaller just a couple of years ago, and never has any trouble.  Then they're in the mountains on steep roads with weird camber and unforgiving guard rails and drops off the edge and ditches bordering cliff faces.  It's new and exciting and they don't normally work with blind turns, decreasing radius turns, off camber turns, shadows retaining wet and ice, visually confusing light/shadow patterns, etc.  They're fine initially, not too bad, just like home in Florida but more fun.  They have no idea they're overreaching their control window.  Generally they don't know they're crossing the yellow line by cutting corners, that they apex too early and are jumping back into a decent line, and brake too hard and too late into downhill turns.  I drop back from these guys because I don't like watching death.  By the time someone like that is 2/3 of the way through the Dragon, or 25 miles into the Cherohala, they're getting brain fade and are failing to set up corners well at all.  They end up in MY LANE headed AT ME.  They don't have local plates, ever!!!   

The other kind is a hot shot who know his stuff where he is and simply overdrives where he is, sometimes quite rudely.  Experienced locals have this kind of problem.  Broken bikes, broken backs, obituaries. 

Both types end up at the gap, the tourists bragging about "surviving" the Dragon or whatever. Fill in your local hotspot. 

None of these roads are inherently as dangerous as a WalMart parking lot.  It's the riders.

I never see the cautious competent folks with 10s of thousands of miles of varied terrain having issues of this type.


Another aspect that isn't taught to drivers or riders is how vision works.  We don't see in sweeps, and we tend to see what we're looking for.  Some trained guys told me that the way to see is to look for anything that's in focus that disrupts what's expected.  Expect clear sky, then pop from focal length to focal length looking for anything that doesn't match clear sky.  Bandit intent upon killing you, for example.  In the road world, this shows up as an interrupted sweep looking at and focusing on the road.  Click click click click constantly, moving focus around as required to see the road surface.  For me, this picks up leaves and squirrels and little holes.  I get to see bicycles and motorcycles and wet spots very efficiently, but I remember having to consciously program myself long ago.  And I STILL miss some things if I'm distracted, and I cannot see everything, especially animals in shadow coming from the side after I've scanned the area before getting to it.

I keep trying to read into reports of accident what exactly went wrong, and keep the concepts above in mind.  I have looked at accident scenes where a good rider simply overcooked a turn, where a good rider didn't take into account loss of traction with unloading, where rider froze up, and a goodly number where I can find no explanation at all for running into someone or off the road. 

As to drivers, they are pretty much untrained in seeing, many have no intent to devote attention to the task at hand more than minimally necessary, and few have real handling skills. 

On my part, I am perfectly competent on a mid-size cruiser or standard, even something like the 750 Honda standards.  Effortless.  However, I fit the step-up accident model perfectly in riding the 1400 California.  It's like the Starship Enterprise or something.  Bigger than it seems, with more power than is reasonable, capable of more than I can get out of it, and offering a range of confusing and distracting features.  It's heavy, so I have to watch gravity push, and it is REALLY COOL to roll the throttle back.  It's right at the edge of bikes I can be allowed to own.  For example, a CBR1000 is over the line. 

So I am very careful not to overdrive my abilities or the conditions.  I tend to think many riders don't realize how they need to accommodate the machine and conditions and their abilities and endurance.

And the drivers!  What to do?  My spider senses from commuting on bicycle in DC save me too often.  No idea how to fix drivers or instill spider sense.

Have fun.  Careful on the Cherohala, it has traps and the shadows have ice this time of year.  I won't go up if its not at least 45 degrees at 5000 ft.

[rocker59]

toaster404   

nice analogy.

[twowings]

Every man has to ultimately answer this eternal question as he gazes downhill toward the end of life...."Do I want to die peacefully in bed...OR possibly die being shot at by a jealous husband as I screech out of her driveway puling a giant wheelie on my bike??"

YMMV

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Jdelv,  You probably have some interesting and valid information in that video.
 The reason I didn't watch it is because when it appeared on my screen, the line under it said it was an hour and a half long.  I am not going to sit through an hour and a half of what is probably redundant drivel to glean what few minutes are interesting.
 Oh, and I note that it was posted in a way that prevents any comment by clicking on the quote tab.
 I find that people who present in this manner are usually the most boring of all.