2014 Norge Final Drive Noise

[Delta425]

Just got the Norge out after parking it in November and I have a "clacking" sound in the final drive (CARC).  Friend of mine says it will go away after a few miles - it's just from not having oil moving around in it for a while.  I ran it for 3 or 4 minutes on the center stand in 2nd gear at about 20 MPH, but the noise is still there.  Opinions?  Any reason to be concerned?

[Huzo]

How many times per revoltio of the rear wheel do you hear the clack. Is it rhytmic when turning the wherl at constant RPM ?

[Delta425]

Yes, it is dependent on wheel speed.  It seems like once per revolution.

[Huzo]

IF.... that's true, then it has to be the crown wheel or something attached, my thought is that it's the only internal part of the final drive that turns at wheel RPM. I'd try taking off the rear wheel, caliper and abs sensor, turn the hub by hand and see if the clack persists, thinking that your noise may not be internal. If the trouble was forward of the pinion, the clack would occur multiple times per wheel revolution.

[pete roper]

I so this is occurring on the centrestand with no load on the drive other than the mass of the wheel, yes?

If that is the case of course it's going to make a hideous noise, the uneven firing intervals will cause the entire driveline to load and unload in a manner it was never designed to.

[oldbike54]

 Oh man , I took a thrashing on WG for running my Jackal in gear on the centerstand for 15 seconds . Some of the comments were , " Dude , just how stupid are you" or " I'm coming to take that thing away from you before it gets destroyed , you are not deserving of a Guzzi "  Seems like Chuckie may have threatened actual physical harm 

 Dusty

[Huzo]

The possibility that Pete Roper points out can be investigated, start your bike on the centrestand run the bike up in 2 nd gear, and lightly apply the rear brake, this will give the engine some resistance to pull against, but not too hard on the brake or you'll introduce other noises from the rear suspension

[Huzo]

What did they think was going to happen Oldie ?

[pete roper]

Please don't do that.

Just get on it and ride it a few metres. Does it make a noise under load or on the over-run? If so you have a problem. If it's simply doing it on the stand it's just the result of the mass of the driveline trying to hammer it to pieces as its being asked to do something it isn't supposed to.

Pete

[oldbike54]

What did they think was going to happen Oldie ?

 

Please don't do that.

Just get on it and ride it a few metres. Does it make a noise under load or on the over-run? If so you have a problem. If it's simply doing it on the stand it's just the result of the mass of the driveline trying to hammer it to pieces as its being asked to do something it isn't supposed to.



Pete

 Something like this Huzo . I always take heed when Pete , Chuck , Guzzistsve , etc bother to help us amateurs .



 Dusty

[Huzo]

Please don't get me wrong on this one oldie, collectively they would have forgotten more than I'm ever likely to learn, period. But don't you think you've retained the right to ask why ? It doesn't mean you question their word, 'cos neither of us would

[canuguzzi]

Not related to a shaftie but chain driven bikes will do the same thing, make noises when run on the center stand, you can see the chain snatching because of not load.

There are all kinds of reasons not to run the bike, trans engaged and spinning the rear wheel while on the center stand, the least of which is not that you have a huge amounts nt of mass turning that if someone or something gets caught up in it, disaster is sure to follow.

It could be a pant leg, shirt tail, hand foot who knows? Safe rather than sorry.

[oldbike54]

Please don't get me wrong on this one oldie, collectively they would have forgotten more than I'm ever likely to learn, period. But don't you think you've retained the right to ask why ? It doesn't mean you question their word, 'cos neither of us would

 Well of course we have the right , and maybe even the obligation to ask why . This is how we learn . One of the greatest qualities on display here on WG is the willingness of our pros and amateurs to share knowledge . Heck , Pete has on a couple of occasions stated that an idea put forth by me regarding a mechanical issue was on the mark , and at best I am a semi-talented amateur 

 Dusty

[Huzo]

Well there you have it, you can't be wrong all the time.  But seriously, what was the issue according to your accuser, I bet there was a goodly amount of common sense involved.

[oldbike54]

Well there you have it, you can't be wrong all the time.  But seriously, what was the issue according to your accuser, I bet there was a goodly amount of common sense involved.

 In America we say "even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then" 

 To answer your question , running the bike in gear with the rear wheel elevated creates an unfavorable angle on the U joint . AND , no one actually threatened violence or loss of the Jackal , although I am sure that a few had those thoughts  Just part of the dynamic here .

 Dusty

[Huzo]

 Now that does make sense, 'never thought of that one. It may be a cultural difference on display here oldie, but I always sense that there's a simmering resentment to a questioning view of established sources of wisdom from down here in Australia, but I'm keen to learn.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well there you have it, you can't be wrong all the time. But seriously, what was the issue according to your accuser, I bet there was a goodly amount of common sense involved.

Get your head in the game, son..  Pete wrote in his first post:

If that is the case of course it's going to make a hideous noise, the uneven firing intervals will cause the entire driveline to load and unload in a manner it was never designed to.

[oldbike54]

Now that does make sense, 'never thought of that one. It may be a cultural difference on display here oldie, but I always sense that there's a simmering resentment to a questioning view of established sources of wisdom from down here in Australia, but I'm keen to learn.

 No doubt there are some cultural differences , although maybe not as great as you may think . I have met lots of Ozzies , Pete included . Living along RT 66 allows me to meet folks from all over who are doing the tourist thing from Chicago to Los Angeles , usually at a motorcycle museum located on the old highway . It is always interesting to discover how folks are just folks .

 Dusty

[Delta425]

Well, the noise was there when I rode the bike around the house, but it was a bit muddy and was doing the flat track routine.  So, maybe I was hearing this noise with no weight on the suspension (feet down pushing the bike).  Anyways, I will get a chance later and just ride it and see what happens.  I will post how it goes..... if I remember (CRAFT disease, you know). 

Anyways, THANKS for all the replies!  Great forum here, with a great bunch of guys!

[Huzo]

Sounds reasonable OB, thanks for the chat

[pete roper]

This has been covered many times before lets cover it again.

The 90 degree V twin with a shared crankpin has very uneven firing intervals of 270 and 450 degrees. Every time a cylinder fires the crank accelerates. Every time a piston comes up against compression it slows down. Couple this with the uneven firing intervals and lack of flywheel mass, (The flywheel is essentially a 'Battery' for kinetic energy.) and when a cylinder fires the crank and driveline accelerate but as the other piston comes up against compression the crank, and input shaft,  slow down so the free movement in the drive train, (Engagement dog backlash, spline clearance etc.) is taken up and the driveline *Knocks*.

If the firing intervals were even this would be less problematic but with the large discrepancies at idle and just above you end up with uneven power pulses setting up irregular surges in the driveline and hence the horrible clattering.

As I said, please don't do it.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Pete sez

drink train

Where do I buy a ticket? 
He also sez

please don't do it.

Pretty polite for Pete.  Maybe I should go on a rant for him?  Naa, only to Dusty.

[pete roper]

Well, the noise was there when I rode the bike around the house, but it was a bit muddy and was doing the flat track routine.  So, maybe I was hearing this noise with no weight on the suspension (feet down pushing the bike).  Anyways, I will get a chance later and just ride it and see what happens.  I will post how it goes..... if I remember (CRAFT disease, you know). 

Anyways, THANKS for all the replies!  Great forum here, with a great bunch of guys!

Was it causing any problems before you laid the bike up for winter? If not why would it suddenly develop a mechanical problem through sitting idle?

Pete

[MLR]

 "bit muddy and was doing the flat track routine"
If you have any pictures please post them, I'd love to see someone flat tracking a Norge!
Your left leg must be made of steel.

[oldbike54]

Pete sezWhere do I buy a ticket? 
He also sezPretty polite for Pete.  Maybe I should go on a rant for him?  Naa, only to Dusty.

 Wait , what did I do ?

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Wait , what did I do ?

  Dusty

Dusty, taking the heat is your job. That's why we give you the big bucks..

[oldbike54]

Dusty, taking the heat is your job. That's why we give you the big bucks..

 Luap , Rocker , and I would settle for an occasional comped meal 

 Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Luap , Rocker , and I would settle for an occasional comped meal 

 Dusty

Either of you guys are always welcome to the 36-18 B&B, and I'll fix you a special breakfast.
Oh, wait.. Rocker has already been here..

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oh. To the OP. CARC means Clanks and Rattles Continuously. Didn't you know that? 

[Delta425]

Was it causing any problems before you laid the bike up for winter? If not why would it suddenly develop a mechanical problem through sitting idle?

Pete

No, it was not noisy when I put t up in the fall.  Anyways, I should have a chance to ride it tomorrow (Monday)and will try to report back after I do.  Again, thanks,  everyone.