1200 8V big bore kit at Guzzitech

[kevdog3019]

My guess is you'd be giving up some top end rev's for some more torque down low , as is the case with the 1400. If I could change anything on my 8v griso it would be to a lighter flywheel, clutch, and  lower gearing . Would hate to give up any top end as that's where the 8v shines. My other guess is knowing Todd he has the answers we're looking for, can't wait to learn more.

Yes... amazing what lighter clutch and rods along with lower gearing do for some lower end giddyup.  Changes the character completely.

[pauldaytona]

There is a German dealer who sells a kit, that has bored cylinders, new Mahle pistons that weigh the same as the stockers, and he knows about a map too.
That would be a much more easy swap.  But most easy would be a 1400 cali engine from a wreck. 

[beetle]

Would be a little inaccurate on displaying performance . The 8v is geared and fuelled much differently. If looking at the 1400 Cali is the example it would be a downgrade.

  Gearing has nothing to do with engine performance. The 1400 is an 8V. The kit is basically 1400 barrels and Pistons. The 1400 makes gobs of torque (89 ft/lb @ 2750) which is an indication that with the right pipe you could easily add 5-10 HP over the 1200, and would have enough torque to pull down small buildings.

[Cool Runnings]

My guess is you'd be giving up some top end rev's for some more torque down low , as is the case with the 1400. If I could change anything on my 8v griso it would be to a lighter flywheel, clutch, and  lower gearing . Would hate to give up any top end as that's where the 8v shines. My other guess is knowing Todd he has the answers we're looking for, can't wait to learn more.

Seems like All I do is shift, shift and more shifting with the 6 speed!

Would prefer a proper 5 speed instead. 

[canuguzzi]

Seems like All I do is shift, shift and more shifting with the 6 speed!

Would prefer a proper 5 speed instead. 

Forget 5th, shift past it. Run third more and forget about 2nd mostly as well.  The Norge doesn't mind some RPMS so you can run 3rd around town, to get up to highway speeds and it makes for a lot less shifting.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a 7 speed with 6th and 7th being closer together than 5th and 6th and use that for mile munching. the 1200 could probably pull the close 7th easily and result in better MPG at elevated freeway speeds.

[Cool Runnings]

Forget 5th, shift past it. Run third more and forget about 2nd mostly as well.  The Norge doesn't mind some RPMS so you can run 3rd around town, to get up to highway speeds and it makes for a lot less shifting.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a 7 speed with 6th and 7th being closer together than 5th and 6th and use that for mile munching. the 1200 could probably pull the close 7th easily and result in better MPG at elevated freeway speeds.

Don't tell me, your auto is a 9 speed. 

[skippy]

I am waiting to figure out how to get the kit needed to do this. http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Custom%20Bikes/moto_guzzi_millepercento_bb1.htm
Millepercento has tweaked out the old push rod two valve motor in some incredible fashion.

Skippy 

[Lcarlson]

My guess is you'd be giving up some top end rev's for some more torque down low , as is the case with the 1400. If I could change anything on my 8v griso it would be to a lighter flywheel, clutch, and  lower gearing . Would hate to give up any top end as that's where the 8v shines. My other guess is knowing Todd he has the answers we're looking for, can't wait to learn more.

Have you ever tried taking the 1400 up to the rev limiter? Top end is very strong. At about 5000 rpm, the engine ceases to remind you of a Harley, and more of Ducati. Well, at least sort of....

[lucian]

I find the 1400 pulls harder from 0 up to around 6500 and then tapers while the 1200 rips from 5000 right up to 8500. I'd be hesitant to push the 14 to the limiter but the griso kind of begs you to do so. Two different power curves, both tuned well for there intended purposes. would be great to be able to combine the two in one mill.

[boatdetective]

Before everyones knickers get too tightly wadded about this kit of Todd's, why doesn't someone ask him what's needed?  Todd doesn't usually throw out something he has no knowledge of.  I'm betting he's done the experiment.
K

With all due respect, I bought a Power Commander and an "O2 optimizer" from Todd and it was a total waste of money. The guy from "Techno Research" was an ass to boot. I don't know anything about this kit- but as far as bringing something to market- people will do it so long as they think it will sell.

[Lcarlson]

I find the 1400 pulls harder from 0 up to around 6500 and then tapers while the 1200 rips from 5000 right up to 8500. I'd be hesitant to push the 14 to the limiter but the griso kind of begs you to do so. Two different power curves, both tuned well for there intended purposes. would be great to be able to combine the two in one mill.

The 1400 pulls MUCH harder off the bottom than the 1200, but it will also go right up to the rev limiter with no fade whatsoever. That Harleyesque low end is deceptive. It makes you feel that there can't be a top end rush. But there is.

[pete roper]

  Gearing has nothing to do with engine performance. The 1400 is an 8V. The kit is basically 1400 barrels and Pistons. The 1400 makes gobs of torque (89 ft/lb @ 2750) which is an indication that with the right pipe you could easily add 5-10 HP over the 1200, and would have enough torque to pull down small buildings.

As long as you could get the combustion chambers to work without the second plug or use the 7 or maybe the 5SM I'd guess. Without the second plug I think the bottom end could be problematic. No gaurantee I'm right but I'd approach with caution and carry a big stick.......

Pete

[pauldaytona]

I am waiting to figure out how to get the kit needed to do this. http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Custom%20Bikes/moto_guzzi_millepercento_bb1.htm
Millepercento has tweaked out the old push rod two valve motor in some incredible fashion.

Skippy

Contact Millepercento, they know it all. The owner Stefano Perego. After that send a large sum to Italy. After that you will have the strongest Guzzi in the Americas.
https://www.facebook.com/stefano.perego.35

[beetle]

As long as you could get the combustion chambers to work without the second plug or use the 7 or maybe the 5SM I'd guess. Without the second plug I think the bottom end could be problematic. No gaurantee I'm right but I'd approach with caution and carry a big stick.......

No, I think your correct.

[Tourville]

For the New Engines , the Big Bore Kit taking 95mm cylinders & replacing them with 104mm cylinders .. larger by .75mm than a Corvette .. is a Drop In assembly - no machining required .

Factory Pistons - Factory Cylinders .. drop 'em in .

As to combustion chambers , the Moto Guzzi traditionally ran a wide Squish Band Area and that is what will be increased by adding the 104mm Jugs , no harm - no foul .

Get the engine Balanced front to back .. pressure plate right thru to whatever's hanging off the nose of the crankshaft .

Tell them what rear gearing / tire size you're running , what RPM your engine sits at most of the time so say 3,000 RPM ,
they Balance for 3,000 RPM with a Harmonic of 6,000 RPM .. now the two sweet spots .. leaving 6,000 heading to 9,000
is smooth 'n composed .

Back in the Battle of The Twins days , Udo Gietl of Butler & Smith Inc. BMW crafted the DAYTONA winning flat twin Daytona Orange Bike
engines punching them out to 94mm - & - sent the entire rotating assembly to E.E.LINDSKOG in Boston , Mass.

I used them on my BMW R90 build .. can't say enough good about having the engine Balanced .. worth the scrimping .. motor just sang thru the RPM range like a hot knife .

Engine oiling limitations had one shifting quick @ 8400 .

Down the road get some 52mm ? Guzzie Cruiser Custom / Touring Throttle Bodies .. or have yours bored out to whatever they'll take .

Single Spark Plug is centralized so flame front isn't off set  is not a bad thing .

Haven't had a late model Guzzi engine apart to see the head casting , but back on the BMW my 1975 R90 head had enough meat & access to drill & tap for a second spark plug .. which I did running ACCELL boosters & Twin Plugs .

Is it all worth it ?

Absolutely  :1:

[Roebling3]

OM! Udo Gietl, Butler & Smith! R90! You must be nearly a old as me. I lived within walking distance of Lindskog. Might you know Tom Cutter? (Rubber Chicken Racing Garage). I put an 855cc Blitz kit in an R65. Lindskog balanced the bottom end. Dual plugged the top end with the same sparkers as yourself. My son was able to sort the fueling w/Keihin's. Somewhere around Belleville, Ontario the stock R65 I was passing blew up. Every moving part came out the bottom. The cam shaft in 3 pcs. both rods wound tight on the crank. I saved his fuel tank for a Café project. Kinda like painting kills on the cowl of your airplane.  Good fortune,  R3~ 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Welcome to WG, Tourville..

[pete roper]

Combustion chamber volume may be different between the 1200 and 1400 heads, I haven't checked yet. The 1400 pistons are substantially heavier than the 1200 ones. Mallorying the webs is a prick of a job and I don't want to damage the integrity of the Pistons so I've taken the other route. It's easier to remove weight than to add it.

I dunno if a second plug will be vital? I'm hoping not but there's only one way to find out.

Pete

[Tourville]

image hosting


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/659058-shreddrs-excellent-big-bore-adventure-aka-hp2s-big-bore-install-thread.html

Here's source informative reading on a BMW HP2 Big Bore Build - CP pistons & Connecting Rods .

Triple Plug Heads .

Stock 101mm taken to 104.7mm done well , balanced Rods & Pistons only
original cylinders sent out for bored & Nikasil Lined

Hey Chuck !

R3:

Tom Cutter !  Absolutely .. hell .. I've got an /6 BMW Race Engine Case where the cylinder tore off
the  case  side wall .. from Todd Schuster around here somewhere ..

Mallorying the Piston Webs .. .. been a long time since we done that one Pete ! 

[Tourville]

HP2 stock 617 grams each, Carrillo 534 grams each

(quote) side by side with R12S stock parts (not the same as the stock HP2S parts but close), with a net weight savings of 100grams/bore or 200 grams (almost 1/2 pound). The weight savings is just an added benefit, because even if it was no weight savings the added displacement and increase in compression (from 12.5:1 to 12.75:1) will make big performance gains, so the weight loss is just icing on the cake!

[pete roper]

Mallorying the webs is a proven technique, as I said, it's not one I like so I'm not using it.

Nor am I chasing absurd HP, a quick look at the heads and combustion chambers and the cam timing will tell you that would be pointless. What I'm trying to achieve is more midrange torque with a wide spread. It doesn't need to rev to 10,000. It doesn't even need to go any faster! If I wanted that I'd buy another bike or, if I really wanted to do something so pointless with an 8V Guzzi I'd be looking at lowering/changing the gearing. The 8V's are seriously over geared.

Looks like the 1200 heads are incompatible with the 1400 pistons. Mud mapping would suggest a 12:1 CR, too high for my liking. Although the combustion chamber is very nice we're still stuck with shitty fuels and to run that high a lot of compromises would have to be made. If I remove the required material from the pistons, (Can't safely do it to the heads and it would involve compromises I'm not prepared to make.) then I'd have to star removing metal from the crank, this is all money and I know the stock 1400's are balanced pretty well at the factory. Looks like I'll just spring for a pair of 1400 heads and work from there. It also gives the advantage of better cooling and I suspect that a lot of the idle speed vibration of the stock 1400's is down to the induction plenum and RBW. I'm betting with the good old W5AM system controlling twin TB's, (No need to do anything to them in my book.) it'll be possible to make the engine as smooth as a well tuned 1200.

Another advantage of using the Cali14 heads is of course they the provision for a second plug is already there. A bit more screwing around to fit one but easily doable.

[cloudbase]

Those extra cubic inches cost beaucoup rectangular dollars.

[pete roper]

Those extra cubic inches cost beaucoup rectangular dollars.

Oh, buggering about with stuff like this is never going to be cheap. It can be fun though.

I think that one of the major differences I and 'Tourville' have is that we are probably seeking two completely different things from the same engine.

Pete

[Tourville]

 :1:

[pete roper]

Wrecked Calis will start turning up soon I'm sure. I'll probably be buying new. Gotta check a few more things before I commit. For one thing I'm wondering if the Cali camboxes are shallower to allow for the extra depth in the head casting? Camchains are the same so somethings gotta give.....