High speed panic braking

[Rough Edge racing]

 Have you ever been riding at let's say 60-70 MPH when a situation suddenly comes up demanding maximum braking to a near dead stop?  I've practiced on deserted roads trying to stop as fast as possible but it's not the same as an emergency ...To be honest I think the only time I had to do it in real life was on my 67 Triumph 650 many years ago..The drum front brake wouldn't lock up at 60 mph but it didn't stop all that quick either...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Have you ever been riding at let's say 60-70 MPH when a situation suddenly comes up demanding maximum braking to a near dead stop?  I've practiced on deserted roads trying to stop as fast as possible but it's not the same as an emergency ...To be honest I think the only time I had to do it in real life was on my 67 Triumph 650 many years ago..The drum front brake wouldn't lock up at 60 mph but it didn't stop all that quick either...

Twice.

[Triple Jim]

Not having to make extreme stops is a sign of safe riding.  It's hard to beat your records of having to make only one or two in decades of riding.  The only one I can think of I had to make was around 1980, and wasn't successful in keeping me from rear ending a Toyota.  Like RER, I occasionally practice, and now I get my daughter to practice too.

[motoguzzibill]

Some years ago I was riding to work on a rural two lane highway, 70 or so mph. Typical speed in Montana. In a fallow field to my left I spotted a deer running and quickly realized I was it's target and that it had an angle of interception I couldn't avoid. Good old MSF maximum braking technique applied as I'd rather dismount at 45 and 70. If you squeeze progressively harder on the front brake at high speed it's pretty hard to lock it. Grab it you lock the wheel and learn not to do that again.

As the front end dived down and I squeezed the front brake lever aggressively the tire began to howl, which is a good indication of "threshold" braking. The howling caused the deer to turn at the last second, and we proceeded down the highway in a promenade position. Regaining a bit of composure I gave a blast of the Fiams sending the doe off for another dance partner.

I believe braking skills and cornering skills are some of the most important skills needed by riders. It's what I've been telling students for 25 years. Worth practicing, worth improving.
Bill N. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I can't think of even one time from 60-70 mph, but it's been a fairly regular occurrence for me in the 30-40 mph range, on pavement and off.

[balvenie]

I recall cornering at that speed, 60 mph, only to be confronted by a Hereford smack in the middle of the road where it narrowed at a culvert. Hitting the brakes provoked a rear wheel slide but was dealt with by countersteering. That only kept me upright, however. I had not lost speed and the beast wast coming up fast. I aimed for the gap between beastie's rump and the edge of the culvert and grunted through in top gear. That damn thing did not so much as blink. I swear it.

[Arizona Wayne]

Did it a LOT when amateur road racing in the late `60s and practicing to do it then.

1 time in the `90's while riding 2up with a group of fellow Guzzisti and a solo rider right in front of us who wasn't used to this.  He was the leader of our pack as we approached an intersection and the light changed to yellow as we are doing about 55 mph.  He forgets we are right behind him and at the last moment decides to stop instead of go thru the intersection on yellow.  He's on his `89 Mille and I'm on my `81 CX100(2up).  I hit my linked brakes and the bike is stopping as fast as it can w/o the front end diving, and no tires skidding but it just can't stop fast enough with our extra weight.  So as we get really close to rear ending his bike I move the front forks to the left a little and we stop just left of his bike half way up on his side.  He never knew how close we came to rear ending him. I got a thumbs up from 1 of the other riders who saw what happened. 

[John A]

I completed a Law Enforcement motorcycle course in'82. They said most folks will overbrake the rear and underbrake the front in a full blown panic stop so I practice practice practice . Saved myself some embarrassment a couple times🏍,

[Aaron D.]

I practice hard stops a lot-but never had to really do one from 70 in real life.

[twowings]

I seem to get a 'rehearsal' nearly every day and I drive like an old lady...cage drivers just not seeing bikes very well yet...tons of MC on the roads due to nice weather but also multiple bike vs. car accidents here so far...I'm riding with two fingers poised over front brake lever and right foot at the ready...

[timonbik]

I completed a Law Enforcement motorcycle course in'82. They said most folks will overbrake the rear and underbrake the front in a full blown panic stop so I practice practice practice . Saved myself some embarrassment a couple times🏍,

I was a M/C instructor for a police force for many years.  Yes on a Harley you will tend to over brake the rear but on most metrics especially those sport oriented bikes with quality dual discs up front you WILL lock up the front first.  Until you've had a car pull out in front of you and had to PANIC brake to avoid collision you have NOT experienced TRUE MAXIMUM BRAKING.  Trust me, practicing on a quiet country road is not same.  When a car pulls out in front of you in a life an death scenario, you are on the brakes FULL.  Not much time to think about it, especially at 60 plus MPH.  I've had 2 collisions where cars pulled out in front of me in 40 plus years of driving.  The first one happened so fast I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER APPLYING THE BRAKES, never mind worrying about locking anything up. Approx. 2 years ago  I had another collision where a van pulled out in front of me when I was doing about 40 miles an hour.  I locked the front wheel (Ducati Multistrada with excellent front brakes and abysmal rear brake) but because the speed I had time to adjust pressure when I felt the front end washing out.  Unfortunately I was rapidly running out of space and once I realized I was going to hit, full pressure to shave off as much speed as possible.  It hurt but I got to walk away.  Bike was on its way down when it hit.  I really think ABS might have helped because it would have provided MAXIMUM braking right from the point of application.   Takes the guess work out right from the getgo.  Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers, Tim

[LowRyter]

I think most of us could use some practice at emergency braking.  I think there are serious motorcycle accidents that could have been lessened or avoided if the rider had better braking technique. 

And of course belie that old adage, "I had to lay her down."

[Rough Edge racing]

I was a M/C instructor for a police force for many years.  Yes on a Harley you will tend to over brake the rear but on most metrics especially those sport oriented bikes with quality dual discs up front you WILL lock up the front first.  Until you've had a car pull out in front of you and had to PANIC brake to avoid collision you have NOT experienced TRUE MAXIMUM BRAKING.  Trust me, practicing on a quiet country road is not same.  When a car pulls out in front of you in a life an death scenario, you are on the brakes FULL.  Not much time to think about it, especially at 60 plus MPH. 
Cheers, Tim

  Yes...I agree, actual emergencies on are the spot decisions... But practicing on a country road is better than nothing and at least in a perfect situation it might be a lifesaver...never go to a gun fight with a knife...

[Arizona Wayne]

Many here don't like older Guzzi linked brakes but this is when they can save your bacon.  I LIKE linked brakes for street riding.  There's no way you can grab too much front brake with them.   Plus the front end doesn't go into a steep dive like w/o it.  Your whole bike just drops down pretty much evenly.    All my maxi-scooters come with linked brake systems too.

[Arizona Wayne]

I think this is  right on the mark. Panic braking is NOT like threshold breaking or max braking on a race track. Most likely if the time is short and you just react from panic you will lock it up without doubt.
I never cared much for the ABS (anti lock) but I am beginning to believe that in a panic situation it could give you the edge.
Good post!

:-)

Actually, I don't think I've ever experienced 'panic'  braking.  To me that means you are not capable at that moment to deal with the situation you have.  Having road raced, I've always come up with a solution or last resort of action in a sudden collision event, whether it be deflect the contact, stop in time, or lay the bike down before making contact.   And don't tell me it's never a good option to LAY THE BIKE DOWN !!!    If you do you have not found yourself in some situations I have.

[oldbike54]

I think this is  right on the mark. Panic braking is NOT like threshold breaking or max braking on a race track. Most likely if the time is short and you just react from panic you will lock it up without doubt.
I never cared much for the ABS (anti lock) but I am beginning to believe that in a panic situation it could give you the edge.
Good post!

:-)

 Gasp  You mean ABS isn't only for riders with limited skills as some here have suggested? In normal spirited riding I use the brakes fairly aggressively , but yes , there is a huge difference between threshold braking and a panic situation , which in 47 years I've only had happen once or maybe twice .

 Dusty

[lucky phil]

I was a M/C instructor for a police force for many years.  Yes on a Harley you will tend to over brake the rear but on most metrics especially those sport oriented bikes with quality dual discs up front you WILL lock up the front first.  Until you've had a car pull out in front of you and had to PANIC brake to avoid collision you have NOT experienced TRUE MAXIMUM BRAKING.  Trust me, practicing on a quiet country road is not same.  When a car pulls out in front of you in a life an death scenario, you are on the brakes FULL.  Not much time to think about it, especially at 60 plus MPH.  I've had 2 collisions where cars pulled out in front of me in 40 plus years of driving.  The first one happened so fast I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER APPLYING THE BRAKES, never mind worrying about locking anything up. Approx. 2 years ago  I had another collision where a van pulled out in front of me when I was doing about 40 miles an hour.  I locked the front wheel (Ducati Multistrada with excellent front brakes and abysmal rear brake) but because the speed I had time to adjust pressure when I felt the front end washing out.  Unfortunately I was rapidly running out of space and once I realized I was going to hit, full pressure to shave off as much speed as possible.  It hurt but I got to walk away.  Bike was on its way down when it hit.  I really think ABS might have helped because it would have provided MAXIMUM braking right from the point of application.   Takes the guess work out right from the getgo.  Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers, Tim

On the broader subject its another good reason to do regular track days, keeps you accustomed to threshold braking. I will differ with you on the point that modern sports bike will "lock" the front first. In a straight line with decent tires and no major road surface issues a "modern" sports bike will have you over the handle bars before it will lock the front wheel. So if you can keep the bike upright and straight in a threshold braking situation with these bikes you only have to worry about getting it stopped and directional control without the rear wheel on the ground. It wont skid/slide the front. Front end washouts on the brakes with these bikes is generally due to seriously heavy braking and consciously/unconsciously steering the bike via the bars simultaneously, as in at the last moment you figure you cant get it stopped and try to steer away from the danger while threshold braking.
Cruisers are a different matter due to their weight distribution and lack weight transfer to the front wheel under heavy braking. You need to rely on the rear brake a lot more with this design and the lack of weight transfer on the brakes will result in a locked and sliding front wheel even upright and in the dry.
Modern ABS is the way to go if its available on the bike. You still need to keep it upright and minimise the steering input for maximum effectivity though.
Ciao   

[oldbike54]

 Just curious , exactly how does one "lay 'er down" while riding on pavement . Pretty sure my skills match most  riders , and have thought about this quite a lot . Intentionally crashing means either locking up the tires to the point of crashing , or intentionally full locking the handlebars causing a high side  Or maybe the rider just jumped off . My best guess is in most cases the crash was unintentional .

 Dusty

[timonbik]

Unfortunately we don't get to pick and chose when and where that car might pull out in front of you and you need to hit the binders.  It could be on a curve in the road or while you are overtaking. There might be gravel or sand on the road.  Could be water or even ice.  Street tires are not as sticky as track tires and road asphalt not as grippy as track surfaces.  In North America there are a lot of tar and gravel roads that can be very tricky as they offer limited adhesion.  To say you would do a stoppy/endo if you over brake the front is a bit simplistic.  To many variables come into play!!!
Cheers, Tim

[lucky phil]

Just curious , exactly how does one "lay 'er down" while riding on pavement . Pretty sure my skills match most  riders , and have thought about this quite a lot . Intentionally crashing means either locking up the tires to the point of crashing , or intentionally full locking the handlebars causing a high side  Or maybe the rider just jumped off . My best guess is in most cases the crash was unintentional .

 Dusty

My personal experience both on the road and track is its unintentional. Heavy braking combined with the resignation that you wont be able to stop/correct and instinct causes you to steer away from the perceived danger. Heavy braking combined with serious steering input via the bars causes a low side.
My last crash like this on the track was due to my inattention exiting a corner and a really slow rider on the race line that caught me totally unaware. Accelerating and virtually upright, looked up and was on top of the slow bike, in surprise grabbed the front brake while trying to steer under him. Result low side and broken bones, etc.
Mind you Freddy Spenser tells of a deliberate law her down in a Superbike race in America before his international career when the front brakes failed. Dont recall the technique though.
Ciao 

[lucky phil]

Hey Phil your right but we are talking about PANIC breaking not skillful max braking like on a race track.

In a panic situation all bets are off and the survival mode kicks in.

Quite different.

mike

Even in a "panic" stop Mike on a sports bike and UPRIGHT your problem wont be a front wheel skid/slide but a trip over the bars. The washout only happens when you are in the panic stop and try naturally to steeraway from the danger at the same time.
Ciao

[lucky phil]

Unfortunately we don't get to pick and chose when and where that car might pull out in front of you and you need to hit the binders.  It could be on a curve in the road or while you are overtaking. There might be gravel or sand on the road.  Could be water or even ice.  Street tires are not as sticky as track tires and road asphalt not as grippy as track surfaces.  In North America there are a lot of tar and gravel roads that can be very tricky as they offer limited adhesion.  To say you would do a stoppy/endo if you over brake the front is a bit simplistic.  To many variables come into play!!!
Cheers, Tim

Well I did add some caveats to road surface and if you want to see how much grip a modern ROAD tire will give you watch some world Super Sport racing. All using DOT legal tires you can buy from the shop and only around 3-4 seconds a lap slower than a full WSB on slicks with 600 or 675cc config dependent!
Ciao   

[Huzo]

Did it a LOT when amateur road racing in the late `60s and practicing to do it then.

1 time in the `90 while riding 2up with a group fellow Guzzisti and a solo rider right in front of us who wasn't used to this.  He was the leader of our pack as we approached an intersection and the light changed to yellow as we are doing about 55 mph.  He forgets we are right behind him and at the last moment decides to stop instead of go thru the intersection on yellow.  He's on his `89 Mille and I'm on my `81 CX100(2up).  I hit my linked brakes and the bike is stopping as fast as it can w/o the front end diving, and no tires skidding but it just can't stop fast enough with our extra weight.  So as we get really close to rear ending his bike I move the front forks to the left a little and we stop just left of his bike half way up on his side.  He never knew how close we came to rear ending him. I got a thumbs up from 1 of the other riders who saw what happened. 

I'll just mention Wayne that although I can imagine being in that position and gave been, it's not an enviable one, but with due respect (and I do mean that honestly) is it really HIS job to remember that you're "close behind him" with maybe 50 or 60 extra kilo's on board, and also if he had time to stop before the light he hasn't really done much wrong ? Finally,if he was far enough back from the light to stop in time, what color do you think it would have been for the last guy in the group if the leader had kept going and you all followed him through. It's not a swipe Wayne, but is there a point to be seen?

[Arizona Wayne]

I'll just mention Wayne that although I can imagine being in that position and gave been, it's not an enviable one, but with due respect (and I do mean that honestly) is it really HIS job to remember that you're "close behind him" with maybe 50 or 60 extra kilo's on board, and also if he had time to stop before the light he hasn't really done much wrong ? Finally,if he was far enough back from the light to stop in time, what color do you think it would have been for the last guy in the group if the leader had kept going and you all followed him through. It's not a swipe Wayne, but is there a point to be seen?

As we approached the intersection he gassed it to go thru.  Then at the last moment he changed his mind.   Because we all knew if he went thru and we didn't then we would be separated we had somewhat bunched  up to avoid this.  He shouldn't have changed his mind at the last second to stop.  Luckily no one collided, but it was close.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 I have had a number of bikes in the past with twin leading shoe drum brakes that were capable of locking up the front wheel, but then I also have a grip that could strangle a cow.

[Arizona Wayne]

Just curious , exactly how does one "lay 'er down" while riding on pavement . Pretty sure my skills match most  riders , and have thought about this quite a lot . Intentionally crashing means either locking up the tires to the point of crashing , or intentionally full locking the handlebars causing a high side  Or maybe the rider just jumped off . My best guess is in most cases the crash was unintentional .

 Dusty

I have had  to "lay her down" on 2 occasions, 1 on dirt and 1 on pavement.  In both incidences I would have been physically hurt much worse if I didn't.

On pavement the wife & I were riding our `80 Convert loaded with gear + pulling a Unigo trailer w/all our camping gear going about 35 mph on a 2 lane road.  That bike has 4 crashbars, 2 for the jugs and 2 for the saddlebags.  A guy in a full size PU is looking for a place to pull off the road and park.  He pulls left right in front of us and if we don't stop I am going to plow right into his right front wheel/fender.  I know with all the weight we have I am not going to be able to stop soon enough to miss his truck and have been warned since I've had a head injury my brain can't take any more impacts or I'll probably die doing it.   So I twist the front handlebars forcing the bike to go down on the left side in the middle of the street.  I lay frontally with my FF helmet protecting my head but I'm unconscious.  I come to in the ambulance and live to ride another day.   That was in 2001.  If I had hit that truck I'm sure I would not be here alive today.

[Arizona Wayne]

I have had a number of bikes in the past with twin leading shoe drum brakes that were capable of locking up the front wheel, but then I also have a grip that could strangle a cow.

Since I started bike riding/racing with drum braked MCs, far as I'm concerned some of the really fast new bikes front brakes are too sensitive for me to control.  I still use all my fingers on my front brake levers.  Can't imagine using only 2 fingers and be comfortable with that.   

[Nic in Western NYS]

I think this is  right on the mark. Panic braking is NOT like threshold breaking or max braking on a race track. Most likely if the time is short and you just react from panic you will lock it up without doubt.
I never cared much for the ABS (anti lock) but I am beginning to believe that in a panic situation it could give you the edge.
Good post!

:-)

Since the OP used the term 'panic', the hope is that the bike has ABS.  Controlled emergency braking MIGHT be faster without ABS but once panic is involved, squeeeeeezing hard is going to happen.  Without ABS a bad outcome seems more likely.

[sib]

I'm one of those unskilled riders who think they need ABS, and I'm glad I have it.  In fact, I sold my perfectly fine and enjoyable '13 Stone and got an equally fine and enjoyable '16 Stone primarily for the ABS.  It's already probably saved my bacon at least once, thereby paying for itself.  Motorcycling is already dangerous enough without the added danger of locking up the brakes in a panic situation.  I'll leave it to the more skillful riders to manage their panic stopping better than I can.

[DaSwami]

Last fall, passed a slow truck in my CB1100 and goosed it eager to get home.  Was up to about 70-75 when a damn deer shot out from the woods from my right to left.  It was so close I could smell his ass.  Locked up the rear but not the front.  Kept her upright and kept rolling.  That would not have been pretty if I reacted a half second slower.