Metal in Oil.....

[Mr Revhead]

Took the California (2003 EV) for a short ride this morning, I noticed that if I gave it a rev to say 2500ish rpm it would make a funny rattle/graunch as the revs fell. Sounded like it was from the top of the front of the engine.
Looked for loose things, found nothing.
Got home and let it sit whilst I got my gear etc off. So it sat for 10 mins, then I couldn't replicate it.

It's due for an oil change so drained it and found small amounts of metal in the oil. I'm sure it's not bearing materiel mostly wrong shape. Some appears to be magnetic whilst some not and there isn't a whole lot.

I've heard talk of possible cam chain tensioner issues, if the tensioner fails or gets too loose is there the chance of some interference with casings causing metal in the oil?

Alternatively I'm open to other areas to investigate. In other words this is where you guys chime in with the issue and it turns out to be very cheap and easy to fix. Please.... 

[rodekyll]

Is this a hydro or solid lifter engine?

[Chuck in Indiana]

I've heard talk of possible cam chain tensioner issues, if the tensioner fails or gets too loose is there the chance of some interference with casings causing metal in the oil?

Yep, but it wouldn't be magnetic . How many miles?

[guzzinka]

My 2000 Jackal does the exact same thing, you described the noise better than I could.  Right at 2500 on the way down.  I just did all the fluids, no metal, just a little crud probably from the frame connected breather.  My noise comes from around the horn area, but I need to do more research.  I don't think it's an engine noise

[Mr Revhead]

Yes it's a hydraulic versions. Recall has been done. Noise is definitely not from the heads. Its more in front.
53000 kms

[rodekyll]

Get a stethoscope on it.  It could be the oil pump, depending on the quality of the recall work.  It could also be a chain tensioner, or it could be the valves/cam took a dump despite the recall.  Given that it's happening as you back off the throttle, the timing chain is a good culprit.  However, a rattle on decel could also be a rod little end.  The stethoscope will help isolate the location.

[Mr Revhead]

Will try and lay my hands on a stethoscope, little ends would be pretty strange though wouldn't it? Lifter recall was done at 27k so a long time ago, I'd have thought any pump issues would have shown long ago.
I'll pull the valve covers off an check the valve train, if that checks out I might ride for a few kays and drain the oil again and see what's like and maybe cut open the oil filter as well.
There's no knocks or any other weird things. It did 1000ks fine last weekend. The oil it self was just old oil, absolutely no suspended fine shimmering stuff like you get with bearing material. Didn't notice a thing wrong until the last few dregs uncovered some metallic bits.

It looks like the cam chain cover can be removed with engine in place? Might do that if I can't pin point anything else.

[v65tt]

i have seen traces of metal in guzzi sumps stripped the engine and found nothing wrong most annoyingly ! Put it down to enthusiastic use disturbing something or fresh oil cleaning things out


my v7tt had a nasty noise at lower revs just as you started to rest my fingers on the clutch ready to change gear.. Seemed to come front front of engine .  Pulled off the stator to find a small metallic particle stuck to the rotor  ( ducati style) acting as a grinding stone!

[Mr Revhead]

Oh that looks nasty!

it did get some very enthusiastic riding last weekend.


took a valve cover off to see what I could see, nice clean shiny bits is the answer, no hit of metal in any nooks or crannys.

[chuck peterson]

Consider exhaust parts, headers, just 1/16th too close to the frame and at certain Rpms it moves enough to vibrate...try a rubber mallet tapping on all the bits and pieces to see if you can recreate...try loosening the whole exhaust (good time for anti seize on the joints) and rehanging it as one unit....can be as simple as a cable...maybe some driveway time checking bolt torques front to rear

[Mr Revhead]

Well.
Ran it for a little to warm up the new oil and drained.
Checked the sump, couldn't really see much of interest.
Pulled the filter off and cut it open, pulled the filter material out (Those UFI filters are bloody well made! I'll be sticking with these!) Nothing metallic in there, a couple of flakes of some black stuff. Maybe sealant? Or fractions off the rubber tensioner? I dunno.

Poured the oil out into a container.... And in the bottom of the drain tray, metallic pieces, a couple of larger pieces, but a lot of small flakes :( This oil had been running for a total of about 5 minutes.
So I pulled the bearing caps off:
https://goo.gl/photos/X6zKDui9AEYqvh817
https://goo.gl/photos/coYbkbLG33jCZ9qb8

Shell out of the cap is the top one. These are from the rear conrod.

Now to me that looks like it's starting to wear, and needs replacing,  but not the source of the flakes.
Cam (looking up from underneath) looks fine...

So I guess next step is to pull the front off and check the oil pump.

I assume the front timing cover can come off in the frame? I really really do not want to pull the engine out.

This is highly disappointing, I've only had the thing 6 months and it hasn't even done 55000 ks yet :(

[rodekyll]

How about some good quality pics of the metal bits?

[Mr Revhead]

Dont thibk phone camera will show properly  Very tiny flakes.
With a couple of larger random bits.

I'll go see what I can do....

[Mr Revhead]

Yeah, not enough detail

https://goo.gl/photos/STq1nEKuEjNJshcM8

https://goo.gl/photos/BzrSr5YxrQhBWzDe7

To me, it looks like some very small pieces of bearing metal, but not from the big ends as they are not worn enough....
Along with a couple of filings from something, but not much.

[Tom H]

I'm still trying to track down a similar noise on my 15K miles (3K I've done) 2004 EVT. But I don't have any metal in my oil pan. Last time I had the pan off to install a hose clamp on the oil filter, i did notice a few black flakes that looked like very small bits of pepper. When I picked one up on the tip of my finger to look at it, it felt sorta like carbon. Long story on why it might be.

Everything is tight, even tried putting some cardboard wedges into the horns to keep them from vibrating as well as under the coils just in case they were rattling. I even pulled the alternator just in case something was stuck in there.

My last resort is to pull the front cover and check the chain, tensioner , and all the bolts.

Now we have the same question, will the front cover come off without having to unbolt the entire engine???

Looking forward (maybe not  ) to the answer.
Tom

[rodekyll]

it can be done in place.  Don't need to remove the sump either, but you risk tearing a gasket.

[Tom H]

rodekyll,

Do the coils need to come off? Can the cover be tilted while sliding it off the crank end? Or is the crank too long to do that? Coils are in the way to pull the cover straight off like you would pull a Eldo/Ambo cover.

Thank you for the help so far,
Tom

[pete roper]

Just a thought. When the top end recall was done the tops of the lash adjusters were snapped off weren't they?

Pete

[Mr Revhead]

Hi Pete.
Yes I heard from the previous owner about the recall and at first they weren't! He removed them him self when he got the bike back.

My next step is to remove timing chain and check that and oil pump. Do these engines have a normal nut on the cam or the 4 peg nut?

[pete roper]

Both crank and cam nuts are conventional hex nuts but you'll need an extra-deep socket or to get creative to get the crank nut as the Ducati alternator crank *Nose* is very long.

Pete

[Mr Revhead]

Cool, thanks for that. Looks like cutting and welding a couple of sockets is the trick then

[rodekyll]

Yes, the coils come off.  So do the head pipes, so's you can drive out the front engine mount bolt.  The cover can be tipped enough to clear the crank.  Be careful or you lose the spring in the front crank seal.  Have the timing cover gasket, sump gasket, and crank seal/alternator o-ring on-hand.  That insures you won't tear anything in the process.

No, you don't need special sockets for any crank nuts.  They're normal hexes on that engine.  Get out your cheap plumbing sockets -- the ones with the big ends and deep shafts for doing the kitchen Fawcett nuts.  One is the right size.  The other end can be grabbed with a big crescent wrench or a normal socket.  Put a screwdriver in the timing hole to jam the flywheel and Robert is your mother's brother.  If you don't have a set, get one.  You need them anyway.

[Tom H]

Rodekyll,

That is what I thought about the coils. The only way I can see to get the coils off is to remove the tank and get to the coil mount bolts from there. Is there a shortcut? There are small screws that hold the coils in the bracket, but it looks like a nut on the screws between the coils that I can't figure out how to hold much less install. I can see what looks like a nut in there, just can't figure out how to grab them.

Thank you very much again!
Tom

[rodekyll]

I moved my coils back where the airbox used to be,  so I don't remember the procedure exactly.  I think they come out as a unit -- don't remove them from the bracket.  They're long and tiny, and they have a captive nut.  Removing all four will make you a captive nut.  You'll never reassemble them in situ.  IIRC, the bracket mounts to a bar that goes across the lower two of those three upper frame rails.  The bolts you want (2) are up under those rails and between the heads.  To get your hands in there you need to remove the tank.  Maybe someone with more recent experience can give a better answer.

When you take the cover off, pay attention to the length of the bolts and their position.  I started my kid out by laying a bolt next to each hole in the replacement gasket so he'd know where to put it back.  Also, don't try to remove the cover until there's a bolt by each hole.  There are some around the alternator area that are sneaky little bastards -- like those clever sump bolts everybody talks about.  They're easy to miss.  There are also four coming into the bottom from the sump.  Also forgotten by folks at the other end of my telephone.  If you're pounding on the cover to break it free, something is amiss.

Something I've been thinking about is the breather system on these.  They use the frame as part of the oil return system.  I've thought that if there was any debris in the frame tubes they could eventually make their way down the return stream and end up in the sump.  They could look like anything and still look like nothing you'd expect to find in a sump.  I think that might explain some of the occasional mystery crap we discuss here.  So at this point I'm more concerned about the noise than the sparkles.  If the noise is significant it will explain the sparkles.

But the important question -- did you get a stethoscope on it?  Were you able to localize the noise?  If you rip into that timing cover and discover it was the lower engine mount bolt hitting on the header, or the kickstand spring bouncing, we'll have a good laugh at your expense and you'll be pissed.

[Mr Revhead]

rodekyll, after I rode home after noticing the noise, I couldn't replicate it again in the drive way.... I was sure sitting on it that it was certainly from the front of the engine.
However whilst removing the sump I found the L/H muffler was loose, both the main nut and the clamp to the cat converter. So I'm actually now thinking that was probably it.

After looking as hard as I can up inside the sump at the cam etc, removing both valve covers and examining every nook and cranny and looking for any material hidden in corners, I've found absolutely nothing. Not they tinest trace of anything other than clean surfaces and oil.
So given that, the muffler and the lack of any metallic stuff in the filter or pick up screen (not a speck) or play in the rockers, or push rods.  I think what I'll do it fit some new rod bearings, new oil and ride it. If there's no repeat of the noise etc I'll carry on happy. But I will get an oil sample done in a few hundred kays just to be sure.

Looking at the road bearings in day light, and showing them to a couple of mechanics at work (I work in a truck workshop) they don't look as bad as they do in the pics. The mechanics looked at me and said "what's wrong with that?"

Now, why does my engine manual list con rod bolts at 45ish NM in the front, and 65ish on the con rod page, Luigi were you into the wine at break time again? 

[Dilliw]

Hi Pete.
Yes I heard from the previous owner about the recall and at first they weren't! He removed them him self when he got the bike back.

My next step is to remove timing chain and check that and oil pump. Do these engines have a normal nut on the cam or the 4 peg nut?

On those recall kits, my bike had the recall done in April of 2007 and it has the shiny spring collars but the original styled rockers.  No tabs.  I had never looked (hey it's a hydro) until a few months ago.  80k on it so I figure all is good but it does seem like a mystery.

[Tom H]

Rodekyll,

I used the screwdriver technique to try to find the noise, all it left me was screwy.

I have mage sure that nothing touches each other that shouldn't, like pipes and frame for instance. I did find a pipe kick stand bracket that was close, adjusted it and noise still there. I have tightened every bolt that I can get to to make sure there is nothing loose. As mentioned I cardboard wedged the coils and horns and a few other bits thinking they might be rattling against something.

The noise I have is again only when warmed up, cold start no noise. But if noise is there with a hot engine and let it sit like 10 minutes noise goes away until a bit hotter again.

The noise doesn't sound so much like a rattle or valve clatter, more like a rotating ummm??????... bad timing chain/tensoiner on a R75/5. The sound sounds like it's something that is rotating. The problem is that it is fairly constant and does not "exactly match" the RPM. As in 10 noises per minute at 1000RPM idle, at 2000RPM maybe 12 noises.With the photo's on this site, I can not figure out how the chain can hit the case.

I am down through the process of elimination and with research on this board. A cam chain/tensioner issue, a nut not tight in the timing chest or a bad big end rod bearing. That is why I want to pull the cover.

The bike is sweet, except for the one last noise!!

Thanks again so far,
Tom

[balvenie]

TOM H
 Something Rotating?
Couldn't be your clutch falling apart, could it?

[Tom H]

balvenie,

Thought about that. When the noise is there, just a touch on the clutch lever to a full pull, does not change the sound. The clutch does make the rattle when the lever is pulled. This is normal on a new style 2 friction plate clutch from what i understand.

But when hot at a stop, if i apply the front brake, pull clutch and engage first gear, give a touch of throttle and let a touch off the clutch the noise seems to lessen or go away.

Thought about the gearbox as well. Bad shaft or bearing that only shows up when hot. But, again if I pull clutch lever and engage first gear at a stop, all shafts in the gearbox should not be rotating. but noise is still there.

A shop once said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. When it breaks you'll know what the problem is. I'm trying to find the problem before it breaks.

Thank you for the thought!!
Tom

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hmmm, do you have the tubular crash guards? Has one of them been hit?