Rear shock woes :(

[Thirtyaughtsix]

So, I bought these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131199139338?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Cheapest japanese thing I could find to kinda get me through till next winter as I'm trying to budget where I can currently so I can ride already!
Anywho, the add claims plug and play and with 8k+ transactions at 100% feedback I went ahead and bought. Turns out however, these things measure center eye to eye at 340mm when Guzziology as well as my ruined stock shocks measure at 320mm (should have looked that up first, shame on me). My stallion above has them fitted, but I can't bring the wheel up far enough to connect that lower little rod thinger, as you can clearly see it hanging from the swingarm. I've even gone as far as to put all of my weight (a voluptuous 150 lbs) on the frame directly above, and the damn thing would not budge.

So my question is, is there even any way I could possibly make these work? I'm leaning towards no but with the seller being in Australia, return shipping, you get the idea...I figure it would be worthwhile to ask. I'll also note that I inboxed said seller about these, who claimed they sold "hundreds" of these for 850t's and never heard of anything like this, said to finish the bike and then they'd slap right on there. I'm skeptical of this, but that's just me.

[balvenie]

RETURNS AND REPLACEMENTS
If the goods have been installed.......... ........

Very sorry to say that I think they've got you there mate and on the subject of shipping, I live only 50 miles up the highway but time wasted and freight back and forth would be a pain in the wallet.

On the other hand, their advertising Is Misleading

[BMCMOTO]

Just spitballing here.  Could you reposition the brake arms a spline or 6 and then rotate the brake plate sufficiently to connect the reaction arm.  You could also make a longer reaction arm, it operates under tension not compression when braking going forward, needs to be free to pivot on each end.  The brake actuating arm appears to have some adjustment left as well.

Brian

[dguzzi]

So making the fins on the brake plate and pivots  parallel with the swing arm I think...

[Triple Jim]

What bmc5733946 said should work fine, I'd think.  I don't think there's anything keeping the brake plate from being rotated a little.  Once things are together, you can probably adjust the shock preload to make the static sag the same or nearly the same as it was with the old shocks, so the U-joints aren't asked to do anything they don't like.

[mtiberio]

the shocks are not your problem, loosen your adjuster rod a lot, or remove the thumb adjuster, loosen axle nut, spin backing plate and hook up brake rod

[mtiberio]

you could also remove the shock length adjuster lock nut. that would allow you to drive the lower rod end deeper into the shock, reducing length.

[John A]

What Mike says, you can see the brake plate is pointed nose down.

[pehayes]

The shocks have no relationship to that brake anchor arm.  The brake backing hub won't turn and align the anchoring bolt because you have tightened the axle bolt and have pinched the brake into a semi-fixed position.  If you were to drive that and apply the brakes, the hub would just quickly spin right around; it requires the anchor rod to prevent that rotation under brake loading.  So, loosen the axle, fully loosen or disconnect the brake control rod, rotate the brake hub until the anchor rod attaches, and only then retighten the axle.  Install and adjust the brake control rod only after the brake anchor rod is installed.

The 'shock' internal function has nothing to do with carrying load.  Absent a spring, the shock would simply collapse to zero under load.  The RATE of that collapse is controlled by the shock internals.  The springs alone are responsible for load carrying.  If you sit on the back of the bike and you can't compress the shocks, then the spring is too stiff.  See if it can be adjusted softer.  Worst case you can use alternate/softer springs to suit your load-bearing preference.

When the bike is carrying a load, the u-joint will be working properly at a near zero angle.  The u-joint works more as the swingarm deflects up and down over bumps.  However, if you crest a serious bump and get near to weightless or airborne, the the swing arm is going to drop more or at a more severe angle than Guzzi designed it.  Your u-joint might handle the additional angle or it might not.   I think the early Quota had a longer rear shock like yours.  Perhaps someone can confirm.  The u-joint would have been the same design so perhaps Guzzi knows that the joint can handle the additional angle.  Would be good to search out the original eye-to-eye length of a Quota shock.

Patrick  Hayes
Fremont CA

[Mark Dasher]

So, I bought these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131199139338?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Cheapest jap thing I could find to kinda get me through till next winter as I'm trying to budget where I can currently so I can ride already!
Anywho, the add claims plug and play and with 8k+ transactions at 100% feedback I went ahead and bought. Turns out however, these things measure center eye to eye at 340mm when Guzziology as well as my ruined stock shocks measure at 320mm (should have looked that up first, shame on me). My stallion above has them fitted, but I can't bring the wheel up far enough to connect that lower little rod thinger, as you can clearly see it hanging from the swingarm. I've even gone as far as to put all of my weight (a voluptuous 150 lbs) on the frame directly above, and the motherfucker would not budge.

So my question is, is there even any way I could possibly make these work? I'm leaning towards no but with the seller being in Australia, return shipping, you get the idea...I figure it would be worthwhile to ask. I'll also note that I inboxed said seller about these, who claimed they sold "hundreds" of these for 850t's and never heard of anything like this, said to finish the bike and then they'd slap right on there. I'm skeptical of this, but that's just me.

Looks like you're working on an 850T like mine.  The shocks on mine (Ikon) are about 20mm longer than stock just like yours.  They were on the bike when I bought it in 2004.  They work fine.  However, my muffler will just contact the axle nut on full extension and both wheels will just touch the ground when the centerstand is down - plus the extra 1/2" height makes the sidestand precarious at best to use - not a big loss on these anyhow!  I have been considering replacing them with the correct length now that they are available again from MG Cycle.  Lifting the rear end up does quicken the steering (a little).  Pros and cons...

[NC Steve]

Call Dave Quinn and tell him about your riding habits and bike, then send him 200 bucks for a pair of custom setup Hagons.
I installed my 5th pair last Spring, with 3 sets on Airheads, 2 on Guzzis, and never regretted it a second.
Dave & Hagon can't be beat 


https://www.davequinnmotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/HAGON_TWIN_SHOCKS.html

[Rusnak_322]

those shocks are not the greatest - as you may have guessed.
I had them on a café racer I made.



I may be interested in buying them - I need some longer shocks for a XS400 brat that I am building for my wife. I just need to measure and check to make sure they mount the same. where is Ohio are you?

[oldbike54]

 Cleaned up the OP a bit , let's be careful with the multi-syllable expletives , thanks .

 Dusty

[mtiberio]

When I was racing, I used shocks so long my ujoint would rub the swingarm. I'd grind on the ujoints to make them clear. I routinely ran LeMans 4 shocks on a short (pre LeMans 3) swingarm. Never had a ujoint failure

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Ok, I'll loosen the axle and try again tomorrow when I get out in the garage. Thank you!

those shocks are not the greatest - as you may have guessed.
I had them on a caf� racer I made.



I may be interested in buying them - I need some longer shocks for a XS400 brat that I am building for my wife. I just need to measure and check to make sure they mount the same. where is Ohio are you?

Northwest Ohio, fostoria specifically. Right down the road from Richard Sheckler if you're bmw savvy. He likes my work so far 

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Ok so you guys were right about the axle nut being too tight and causing a partial lock on the brake plate, loosened it a bit and swung around just fine and I was able to hook up the shocks as well as the lower rod thinger just fine. Thing is I still have the partial lock on the whole shebang when I tighten that bolt back up, even just finger tight. Is this something that will remedy itself when it's all put back together or am I missing a washer somewhere orrrr??? You tell me

[rodekyll]

yeah . . .   you'll want to back that nut off until you get a parts diagram and compare it to what you're assembling.  You're about a quarter turn away from damaging something.  Go to thisoldtractor.com and burrow around for the xploded diagram.  You're missing the top-hat or have it in backwards or some other simple thing like that. 

This is a Tonti.  IIRC, all tonti rear axle nuts can be tightened to within a few pond/feet of their lives.  There should be no binding as it snugs.  Look for possible deflection of the rear forks as you tighten -- that would be really bad.  Note if the tire is jamming on the swing arm -- not so bad.  Check for all the correct washers and spacers in proper order and facing the right way.  Are the rear brake innards properly assembled?The devil is in the details. . .

[Thirtyaughtsix]

yeah . . .   you'll want to back that nut off until you get a parts diagram and compare it to what you're assembling.  You're about a quarter turn away from damaging something.  Go to thisoldtractor.com and burrow around for the xploded diagram.  You're missing the top-hat or have it in backwards or some other simple thing like that. 

This is a Tonti.  IIRC, all tonti rear axle nuts can be tightened to within a few pond/feet of their lives.  There should be no binding as it snugs.  Look for possible deflection of the rear forks as you tighten -- that would be really bad.  Note if the tire is jamming on the swing arm -- not so bad.  Check for all the correct washers and spacers in proper order and facing the right way.  Are the rear brake innards properly assembled?The devil is in the details. . .

I've been using the exploded parts diagram for an 850t that I believe I pulled off of thisoldtractor actually, got the whole thing saved as a pdf on my phone that I will certainly be triple checking. Everything is just sorta finger tight yet as if you may or may not recall, I'm still waiting on a 8/37 pinion/ring gear to arrive so I will be going back through some of it. Was just sorta test fitting everything to find stuff exactly like this. Rim is tube/tireless yet so no rubbing there

[Triple Jim]

yeah . . .   you'll want to back that nut off until you get a parts diagram and compare it to what you're assembling.  You're about a quarter turn away from damaging something.

Are you saying the rear brake assembly should float when the axle is tightened?  My recollection is that it should do just what Thirtyaughtsix is seeing, and that the brake arm is there because the axle friction isn't enough to keep things from turning under braking.

Thirtyaughtsix, when you say "Thing is I still have the partial lock on the whole shebang when I tighten that bolt back up" do you mean the brake assembly, or the whole wheel partially locks?

[rodekyll]

I'm saying I don't know if the reaction rod is all that holds the rear drum in situ or if there is another locating lug like the disk brake Tonti's have that captures the brake bits.  It's something that if amiss could cause binding.

What I'm really getting at is that there should be no binding of anything when the axle nut is tightened.  The wheel should spin freely with just the drag of the drive shaft and a little skritchy noise from the brake shoes.  If something is binding, something is wrong.  If a guy continues to tighten the axle in this situation, the rear fork can deflect and deform.  That is not a good thing.

Over the years there have been countless topics here about the location and orientation of the spacers and such that make up the rear axle subsystem.  It always comes down to a few things:

wrong or missing spacer inside the rear drive

Tire rubbing on swing arm

brake misaligned (more of a problem with disk rear brakes)

top hat spacer missing or backwards

additional washer or spacer missing

I'm sorry that I am not more current on my drum brake details.  Maybe someone will use these clues to point to the problem.  No, I lied.  I'm not sorry.  I hate drum brakes.  I used to have intense, recurring bad dreams about sailing my Ambo through intersections with a death grip on the brakes.  . . .  But it would be more help to you if I'd been into one in the last decade.

[pehayes]

I'm saying I don't know if the reaction rod is all that holds the rear drum in situ or if there is another locating lug like the disk brake Tonti's have that captures the brake bits.

Actually the inverse.  There could never be enough axle clamp friction to hold the backing plate under load.  The "brake anchor rod" is the primary rotation resistance with perhaps a little from axle clamp friction.  No, there is no other locating lug, pin, etc.  All the load goes to the brake anchor rod.

One question about the axle nut.  What are you doing to the 17mm pinch bolt on the end of the left side of the swingarm?  That should always be the very last thing you tighten.  Leave that bolt loose.  All of the parts; axle, spacers, brake plate, wheel, bevel drive are pinched together when you tighten the axle nut on the right side of the bevel drive.  If that left side pinch bolt is secured, then you are trying to draw the two arms of the swingarm together toward each other and that is a HUGE no-no.  Leave the left side pinch loose, stick a stout screwdriver through the hole toward the left end of the axle (that's what the hole is for) and tighten the axle nut outside the bevel drive.  Only after everything is tight and functioning properly then go back and tighten the 17mm pinch bolt.  Oh, and don't forget to!  :-)  BTDT

Is your adjustable brake control rod disconnected?  If not, do so.  You need to test the system bolted up and anchored without any brake shoe interaction.  If the gearbox is in neutral, then the wheel should turn freely (other than the gear loading and cold lubricant inside the bevel drive.  If not, then we have something further amiss, perhaps inside the wheel.  Have you run the wheel bearings by finger when the wheel was out?  Did you replace those bearings, bushing, spacers or is that all stock?  Remove the wheel away from the bike, put the axle through it, stick a long tube spacer over most of the axle so that just the threads stick out, add the axle nut and tighten.  This simulates the condition inside when all the parts are mounted on the bike.  That axle, even after tightening, should now spin very freely within the wheel as all the load is transferred to the tapered wheel bearings.  If it binds, then something is wrong with the bearings, seals, internal spacers, etc.  I suggest we verify that first before we worry about how the wheel performs when mounted on the bike.  Might just be the wheel hub parts themselves.  Greg Bender describes the process here:  http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_wheel_bearing_adjustment_shimming_set_up.html

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Please don't take offense at basic questions.  We're trying to get to the bottom of something very strange and we have to cover all bases.

Is the tire on the wheel as yet?
Looking at your original posted picture, the left side swingarm pinch bolt doesn't even seem to be there.  That is good.  Is that still the condition?
When you say it all starts locking up at finger tight, are you allowing for the significant rotational resistance load of the bevel drive parts?
Remove the brake backing plate.  Use a dark marker or some DyKem to mark any surfaces that face the inner hub of the wheel.  Using chalk, put a stripe down the center of each brake shoe arc.  Reassemble finger tight and rotate while tightening further.  Disassemble and inspect for places where your markings have been worn away.  Perhaps do the same on the right side of the wheel where it abuts or faces the bevel drive.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Bump.

Would like to know the resolution on this.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Bump.

Would like to know the resolution on this.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Pinch bolt as you noticed is not in, there is still no tire mounted. Rear brake rod control thing is still hooked up so I'll go ahead and disconnect that and give her a spin when I get the chance. Fresh bearings in the wheel, even took apart the nipples and spokes, cleaned and re-laced them (or my girlfriend did rather). Wheel and bearings spun perfectly fine pre-mounting it to the bike when we still had it in the stand thingy she used to true the wheel. I worded all of that terribly, I know lol. The whole wheel locks when I start to get hand tight with the axle nut. It is without a doubt in neutral.

Would the ring and pinion gear affect this? If so I have a new set on the way, what I have mounted in now is a slightly chewed pinion gear. When that gets here at maybe the end of the week I'll see if I can find any obvious evidence of things rubbing/catching.

[pehayes]

Two big hints in there.

First, you changed the wheel bearings.  Are you aware of the spacer and adjustment washers which go inside the hub and prevent overloading the wheel bearings?  The wheel bearings are tapered and intended for a zero pre-loading condition.  If you don't have a correct spacer and adjustment washers, then tightening the axle will certainly lock up the wheel.  Usually, when you remove the wheel bearings from the hub, the adjustment washers stick to the old bearing and are easily ignored or forgotten.  If you don't properly re-check spacing, then the internal spacing is too small and the bearings lock on axle tightening.  I wrote some instructions regarding checking  the bearing against pre-load and included a Greg Bender instruction set.  I'd like to hear that you tested the axle and bearings away from the bike so that the bevel drive is not involved.

Second, you refer to damaged ring and pinion gears.  When those got damaged, what happened to the wayward pieces?  Could they have been ground to pulp and seriously damaged the two bearings inside the bevel drive?  One huge, caged  ball bearing and one smaller, caged roller bearing.  I'm not so suspect of this issue as the rotation interference you are sensing would more likely be constant and would not vary with axle tension.

I'm still leaning on the hub/axle bearing issue and I'd like to hear the test results or hear more about your wheel bearing replacement procedure.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Tom H]

Having worked on my two drum brake bikes, I could add to this. But....

Listen to what Patrick said and check your wheel bearings for the correct spacers installed. Then go on from there.

Good luck!
Tom

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Two big hints in there.

First, you changed the wheel bearings.  Are you aware of the spacer and adjustment washers which go inside the hub and prevent overloading the wheel bearings?  The wheel bearings are tapered and intended for a zero pre-loading condition.  If you don't have a correct spacer and adjustment washers, then tightening the axle will certainly lock up the wheel.  Usually, when you remove the wheel bearings from the hub, the adjustment washers stick to the old bearing and are easily ignored or forgotten.  If you don't properly re-check spacing, then the internal spacing is too small and the bearings lock on axle tightening.  I wrote some instructions regarding checking  the bearing against pre-load and included a Greg Bender instruction set.  I'd like to hear that you tested the axle and bearings away from the bike so that the bevel drive is not involved.

Second, you refer to damaged ring and pinion gears.  When those got damaged, what happened to the wayward pieces?  Could they have been ground to pulp and seriously damaged the two bearings inside the bevel drive?  One huge, caged  ball bearing and one smaller, caged roller bearing.  I'm not so suspect of this issue as the rotation interference you are sensing would more likely be constant and would not vary with axle tension.

I'm still leaning on the hub/axle bearing issue and I'd like to hear the test results or hear more about your wheel bearing replacement procedure.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

I have not a clue what would have happened to any wayward pinion shrapnel, I scratched my head for a quite a bit on that one.

I'll have more answers when I get the chance to go and do some experimenting which may or may not happen tomorrow. This rebuild isn't happening in my own garage unfortunately so I can't step outside quick to see

[Thirtyaughtsix]

Ok so! Finally got around to this again, took the rear wheel off from the whole rest of the bike, nothing but rim, hub, spacers and bearings, put the axle through and gave her a spin and she spun just fine. I replaced my 8 tooth pinion as well as the needle bearing, as the original was ever so slightly oblong, slight enough to miss at first casual glace...put everything back together and the wheel STILL wants to lock up partway through its turn. Notice I say partway there, it seems to lock at one certain point that I cant ascertain. To the absolute best of my knowledge I have every spacer and washer in the same place as it came originally (original to me at least) and everything I've done adds up with the exploded parts diagram I pulled off Benders site.

That said, now what? Will the whole thing just work like magic once there's tires on and the bike is resting on its own weight or something? Am I not truly in neutral or something?

[pehayes]

I apologize for pestering, but I need to be clear.  You inserted the axle and spun it.  When installed away from the bike, the axle protrudes from one side of the hub by several inches.  Did you make and install a tubular spacer over the exposed part of the axle?  Did you add the nut to the axle and temporary spacer so that you could tighten the nut and emulate the bearing load condition as if it were on the swingarm? You need to be squeezing the inner race of one bearing toward the other with the hub's internal spacers to keep them apart by a critical dimension.  Spinning the axle isn't the test. Spinning it under simulated bearing load is.  Please confirm.

Test #2, What happens if you put the wheel up into position engaged with the rear drive, no axle at all, and manually turn the wheel while holding it against the drive?  Do you still feel any of this binding?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[canuck750]

I just rebuilt the rear wheel on my 750S, same as the Eldorado, V7 Sport, something to consider;

You mentioned you replaced the rear wheel bearings, did you replace the races and bearings as a set? The new bearings available from MG Cycle and others have a slightly different pitch and the two are not interchangeable. If using new bearings in old races the bearing will sit too far out of the race.

Secondly if you replaced both the bearing and the races on each side of the hub the spacer will likely be too short, mine was and I needed to add a shim and then turn down the spacer in my lathe until the distance between the bearings was correct.

Third thing I found was the new brake shoes I fitted have a deeper casting that locates the brake springs a wee bit closer to the cast hub and the springs make contact with the hub. I had to get a reaming tool in my die grinder and clean up the brake shoe castings to allow the springs to fit horizontal between the shoes. Even then I had to trim a few thousands off each of the cast fins in the wheel hub.

One last thing I assume you are using the rear axle that is correct for the bike? The Eldo / V7 Sport is unique but very close to one I had in a 850T, I got them mixed up when I disassembled the 750S and it messed me up for the longest time till I realized I had the wrong axle.

I would set the wheel don on a flat surface, then fit the brake backing plate with shoes over the hub and push the axle through, the backing plate should spin freely all the way around.