V7iii alternator output and heated grips, gear and lights

[Socalrob]

So how much do I have to work with and what is reasonable.  Any path to increased alternator output?

Will changing over headlight and tail lights free up some amps?

I'd like heated grips, heated jacket, driving lights, and GPS.  Will my V7iii drive all that?

[malik]

As long as the driving lights are LED, more than likely. My V7's have no problems, but they are both the older alternator versions. Work out the current draw, at night on high beam with e very thing blazing..

[Kiwi Dave]

So how much do I have to work with and what is reasonable.  Any path to increased alternator output?

The stated alternator output capacity is 268 watts @ 12 volts, or just over 22 amps.  Measure the existing load through the 30 amp fuse (fuse F) with the alternator temporarily disconnected.  Work out what you have left, and load up accordingly.

LED lights will help reduce the total current drain.  Dunno about heated jacket (don't you live in California?), but heated grips will only ask for a couple of amps maximum.  GPS negligible, driving lights buy what the bike can take.

[Kev m]

Yeah I was gonna say convert head and taillights to led and use extra amps for heated accessories.

[jas67]

Yeah I was gonna say convert head and taillights to led and use extra amps for heated accessories.

That's what I do.

I've got LED head and tail lights on my both my V7's ('14 Special, '13 Racer).    The Special has heated grips, plus I run a heated jacket, and, if it is really cold, heated gloves (but not the heated grips at the same time).     On the racer, heated jacket + gloves.   I've never had a problem with the alternator keeping up with the gear on either bike.   

[coastdude]

Hey Kev can you give me the bulb detail for the LED conversion, is it just bulbs or additional parts required? Thanks. Andy

[Zoom Zoom]

With regard to the tail light, I found a 2 pack of Sylvania bulbs for 20 bucks at O'Reileys. Direct 1157 replacement. Nice and bright with a good contrast between the tail and brake light. So, if you need one, you end up with a spare.

As mentioned, any additional lighting can be LED's.

If your bike does not have a volt meter somewhere in the dash menu, I would suggest using a volt meter to "manage" your usage. Likely at speed, you can run what you want. In town you might need to turn down the heat or something. That is what I refer to as managing your power. On my EV's, I would usually turn down my heated gear in town to keep the voltage where it belongs. Once out on the road and up to speed, (3K rpm's), I would turn it back up.

You can do what you want. You just need to be prudent of your power consumption.

John Henry

[Kev m]

Hey Kev can you give me the bulb detail for the LED conversion, is it just bulbs or additional parts required? Thanks. Andy

I haven't bothered on the V7, but John just gave you the right idea on the tail light and I'm sure Jay can answer on the headlight.

[Zoom Zoom]

I forgot to add, make sure the tail light LED is RED! The red lens will filter out anything else. (Do NOT use a white bulb.) It will be labeled on the pack.

John Henry

[jas67]

I have ADVMonster "Mesh Monster" H4's.   They have been replaced the H4 Rev 3.   I don't know if the H4 Rev 3 will fit the V7's headlight bucket.    I think that they may be a little longer.
http://stores.advmonster.com/h4-r3-led-headlight/

The ADVMonster "Native H4", but, from what I've read, the beam isn't as good.
http://stores.advmonster.com/native-h4/

I had an early Cyclops H4 in my V7 Racer a while back.   It was fine for "being seen", but, the low beam cutoff sucks.   Their current products are a lot better.     I have their H7's in my F800GT, they're very good.
I haven't tried their current H4 offering however, and don't know if it will fit the V7 headlight bucket.

[MMRanch]

Socalrob

Be aware :   If the alt. is a permanent magnet type  putting out about 250 watts , then what ever don't get used will have to be burned off by the Rectifier .    If the standard load is : 55 watts head light , 8 watts tail light , blinkers , horn , dash lights , ignition system , and etc . all add up to 150 watts , the  Rectifier will be burning off about 100w.   you know how hot 100w light bulb is .   If you go ALL- LED then you'll be burning off 150-175 watts ... and you'll either relocate the rectifier or burn it up. 

Keep-up with the numbers and save your-self some heart ache down the road !     

[Socalrob]

Great advice all.

Thanks.

[jas67]

Socalrob

Be aware :   If the alt. is a permanent magnet type  putting out about 250 watts , then what ever don't get used will have to be burned off by the Rectifier .    If the standard load is : 55 watts head light , 8 watts tail light , blinkers , horn , dash lights , ignition system , and etc . all add up to 150 watts , the  Rectifier will be burning off about 100w.   you know how hot 100w light bulb is .   If you go ALL- LED then you'll be burning off 150-175 watts ... and you'll either relocate the rectifier or burn it up. 

Keep-up with the numbers and save your-self some heart ache down the road !     

No, false.    That's not how regulators work.   The rectifier/regulator simply drops enough voltage to get the voltage to the correct range.    If the load is lighter, the current (Amps) is Lower, and there is less power actually being dissipated in the regulator.   Power dissipated is the voltage drop multiple by the current.   Yes, the voltage drop may be a little higher for lighter loads, because the output voltage of the alternator will be higher, but, not that much.  That is, of course, assuming a linear regulator.   If it is a digital regulator, then even less power is disputed, as digital regulators use PWM (pulse width modulation) to control the voltage.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

With regard to the tail light, I found a 2 pack of Sylvania bulbs for 20 bucks at O'Reileys. Direct 1157 replacement. Nice and bright with a good contrast between the tail and brake light. So, if you need one, you end up with a spare.

These for the taillight:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CO1F31I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm using this bulb in the headlight of my Convert:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M3V9J5Z/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You might also consider a "purpose built" LED headlight such as those made by Truck-Lite and JW Speaker.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_154&products_id=5025

[MMRanch]

Jas

Fact is :
if you want lower wattage out of a alt. then you either have to reduce the magnet force  or  reduce the field of that is trying to catch the magnet .   
 When your dealing with a permeant magnet  ... their ain't no changing the force a "Permeant Magnet" puts out.

The Stator is also a fixed quantity of coils ... So , unless the regulating gismo can remove and add coils as the load changes , Then the OUT-PUT can not change .   

Now , if you have an Electro Magnet that has brushes to connect with the rotating magnet , then you can lower the power of the magnet or raise the power of the magnet as you need to.

So ,
Does Guzzi use :
1.  Permeant Magnet
2.  Electro Magnet
?????           

I was under the impression Guzzi uses  a   Permeant Magnet  ....  So , tell me which is it ? 

Moto Guzzi v7 Classic alternator stator rotor   ,    Don't look like a Wound Rotor to me ???



 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Socalrob

Be aware :   If the alt. is a permanent magnet type  putting out about 250 watts , then what ever don't get used will have to be burned off by the Rectifier .    If the standard load is : 55 watts head light , 8 watts tail light , blinkers , horn , dash lights , ignition system , and etc . all add up to 150 watts , the  Rectifier will be burning off about 100w.   you know how hot 100w light bulb is .   If you go ALL- LED then you'll be burning off 150-175 watts ... and you'll either relocate the rectifier or burn it up. 

Keep-up with the numbers and save your-self some heart ache down the road !     

I don't think this is quite correct as far as the guzzi goes
The earlier series regulators just left the SCRs turned off when the battery is full no power is consumed.
If it's a shunt type they short the alternator out when the battery is full, contrary to what you might think this reduces the power output of the alternator
When it's shorted sure you get some higher current but the Voltage is zero  22 Amps x 0 Volts = 0 Watts

The worst thing you can do with one of these alternators is partially short them because then you have high current and Voltage
The earlier Honda Goldwings had 3 connections at the back of the gearbox where the alternator wires plugged into the loom, these would get corroded creating resistance
allowing the Voltage to build up when it was shorted and the stator would burn out.
The fix was to chop out the connections and solder the wires thus ensuring a solid connection.

So make sure any connections in the yellow wires are in good shape.

[Kiwi_Roy]

How do we know if the V7 regulator is Series or Shunt?

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif

If you were to monitor the yellow wires with your meter on the AC range
On a series regulator you should see spikes of high Voltage as the battery gets fully charged

On a shunt regulator I suspect you would never see more than 16 to 18 Volts

This might give you some odd results on a multimeter, you really need an oscilloscope to show what's happening

[Kiwi_Roy]

The stated alternator output capacity is 268 watts @ 12 volts, or just over 22 amps.  Measure the existing load through the 30 amp fuse (fuse F) with the alternator temporarily disconnected.  Work out what you have left, and load up accordingly.

LED lights will help reduce the total current drain.  Dunno about heated jacket (don't you live in California?), but heated grips will only ask for a couple of amps maximum.  GPS negligible, driving lights buy what the bike can take.

Most multimeters have a maximum current range of 10 Amps so how are we to measure up to 22?

Easy, make a simple shunt out of a short length of copper wire, lets say 12" and measure millivolts drop across two points a certain distance apart.
Just bare 2 spots of insulation near the middle and touch or jamb the meter leads between strands

2.9" for #16
4.5" for #14
7.7" for #12
This distance will give you 1 millivolt per Amp, if you want better resolution use a longer wire and bare spots at 29", 45" or 77" this will give you 10 millivolts per Amp

Once again the meter leads need to be an inch or two from where the current connector is made or you get extra millivolts from the joint.

Using a #12 shunt you can easily measure the starter current, about 180 Amps for a big block Guzzi, just don't do it for too long that's all or the wire will heat up and you will get some error due to the increase in resistance.  Sorry I don't have any metric size wire but I can easily show you how to work those out as well.

[hauto]

The ADVMonster "Native H4", but, from what I've read, the beam isn't as good

I run two Natives in my Quota, work great.In fact cars will flash their  high beams if I leave them on high beam

[jas67]

Jas

Fact is :
if you want lower wattage out of a alt. then you either have to reduce the magnet force  or  reduce the field of that is trying to catch the magnet .   
 When your dealing with a permeant magnet  ... their ain't no changing the force a "Permeant Magnet" puts out.

The Stator is also a fixed quantity of coils ... So , unless the regulating gismo can remove and add coils as the load changes , Then the OUT-PUT can not change .   

Now , if you have an Electro Magnet that has brushes to connect with the rotating magnet , then you can lower the power of the magnet or raise the power of the magnet as you need to.

So ,
Does Guzzi use :
1.  Permeant Magnet
2.  Electro Magnet
?????           

I was under the impression Guzzi uses  a   Permeant Magnet  ....  So , tell me which is it ? 

Moto Guzzi v7 Classic alternator stator rotor   ,    Don't look like a Wound Rotor to me ???



 

What you say is true about VOLTAGE, not POWER.

So, you're saying that the rectifier regulator would be dissipating the full output capacity of the alternator under no load?   It would burn up quickly for sure.    But, that's not how it works.

I don't have time today, but, can do a test.    Assuming the all R-R's work the same (I have an aftermarket one now on my both my V7s), if I measure the temperature of the heatsink of my R-R with and without the additional load of heated grips, gloves, and jacket, given the same ambient condition, the R-R should be cooler with the additional load if you're correct, and warmer if I'm correct.

BTW, being an electrical engineer, I have a pretty thorough understand of the various types of voltage regulators and how they work.

[jas67]

I run two Natives in my Quota, work great.In fact cars will flash their  high beams if I leave them on high beam

I was referring to their low-beam cutoff.    No doubt that their bright, but, is the low-beam cutoff enough to not glare oncoming drivers?

[Kiwi Dave]

Most multimeters have a maximum current range of 10 Amps so how are we to measure up to 22?

I'm not suggesting you will need a meter that will read up to 22 amps, just one that will measure the existing current which will be less than 10 amps.  Then do the subtraction to see how much is still available.  Personally, I wouldn't run anywhere near the stated capacity, but I'm saying there's plenty available for what Solcalrob wants to do.

[jas67]

Most multimeters have a maximum current range of 10 Amps so how are we to measure up to 22?

https://www.amazon.com/Extech-MA120-Clamp-Current-Detector/dp/B000BEZV5O/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1509306473&sr=8-3&keywords=clamp+on+dc+ammeter

[MMRanch]

Jas

That would be a good experiment .   

One of my Nephews (GXR? 750) burnt the RR out on his bike , put another one on and with-in 10 miles burned the new one up too.  Well , they are over $100.oo.    So , before he put another one on he came asking me , "Whats going on"

After him telling me all about the LED lighting his and his buddies had installed and how cool they were ... I knew what the problem was .   Yea , the problem is :  Those LED's are too Cool , and the excess electrons are going to the RR to find their way back to ground.  His problem was solved when he  ...  Re-installed his original head-light .   

This last summer I hosted a bunch of friends from all over the country to mid-Tn. for a week .   Well , one of them was having the same problem as my nephew had .   First couple of days he had to borrow one of my other bikes because his New RR had burned up (again). 
He had done the same thing that Nephew had done ... LED's every where he could put one ... thinking the alt. having to do less = more power to the rear wheel ...

I could see :  if the stator coils were not connected to anything (just open-ends) , then the alt would have "0 (zero)" output .
                    So , if a regulator was to "open and close" connection to the fields (stator coils) then you could regulate the output ,
                    but that would be a really big load to put on a PNP or NPN chunk on silicone ...   

I've only got a Tech. School 18 month degree in electronics , and don't claim to know everything , but I though I understood how RR's work.   

[jas67]

Jas

That would be a good experiment .   

One of my Nephews (GXR? 750) burnt the RR out on his bike , put another one on and with-in 10 miles burned the new one up too.  Well , they are over $100.oo.    So , before he put another one on he came asking me , "Whats going on"

After him telling me all about the LED lighting his and his buddies had installed and how cool they were ... I knew what the problem was .   Yea , the problem is :  Those LED's are too Cool , and the excess electrons are going to the RR to find their way back to ground.  His problem was solved when he  ...  Re-installed his original head-light .   

This last summer I hosted a bunch of friends from all over the country to mid-Tn. for a week .   Well , one of them was having the same problem as my nephew had .   First couple of days he had to borrow one of my other bikes because his New RR had burned up (again). 
He had done the same thing that Nephew had done ... LED's every where he could put one ... thinking the alt. having to do less = more power to the rear wheel ...

I could see :  if the stator coils were not connected to anything (just open-ends) , then the alt would have "0 (zero)" output .
                    So , if a regulator was to "open and close" connection to the fields (stator coils) then you could regulate the output ,
                    but that would be a really big load to put on a PNP or NPN chunk on silicone ...   

In the 1960's and 1970's, having enough load was critical has, some bikes didn't even have voltage regulation.
In the case of the CB77, aka 305 Super Hawk, there is a signal from the headlight switch to the alternator that boosts output when the headlight is on.   If the bulb is blown, it is possible to over volt the tail light and blow it too.

As for the GXSR, that should be a modern enough solid state regulator that too light a load shouldn't be a problem.   The whole point of a voltage regulator is to regulate the voltage regardless of load.

[MMRanch]

Jas

I hope your right and we can put all the Heated gear we want on a V-7 , with out concern of  overloading the charging system  OR  under loading with LED's . 

I don't know how much a replacement RR is (and hope never to be forced to find out  )

You stated you have after-market RR's on your bikes ...

[Kev m]

You stated you have after-market RR's on your bikes ...

The OEM units on the early 1TB models were spec'd to run high (up to 15 volts was considered "normal") and many were found to be charging at rates even higher than that so many of us have replaced them with aftermarket units the charge at a more acceptable low to mid 14's.

[Kiwi Dave]

The OEM units on the early 1TB models were spec'd to run high (up to 15 volts was considered "normal") and many were found to be charging at rates even higher than that so many of us have replaced them with aftermarket units the charge at a more acceptable low to mid 14's.

This got me thinking that I should check the output on my V7-III Stone.  Happy to say that it was charging around 14.2 volts @ approx 3,000 rpm.  Griso 1200SE gave a similar result.

Just for giggles, I checked the cage, a Holden LS3 6.2 liter V8 (similar to a Chev SS sedan).  It read over 15 volts at idle, wasn't able to rev the engine while observing the voltmeter easily.  But it sounds a little high according to this conversation.  Should I get it checked properly?

[TimmyTheHog]

as I would also like to add heated grip to my system, I also like to test my amp allowable.

You mentioned disconnecting the alternator...I can't see to find in the manual on where the alternator is connecting TO...perhaps a picture would help?

Don't feel like to randomly pulling stuff apart without knowing what to look for...

my is a V7 not, a III...wet alternator...

not sure if it would make any difference...

[Kiwi Dave]

It's unlikely to make any difference if the alternator/rectifier is connected or not.  I was just suggesting in case there was a destination for the battery current to dissipate to.  Probably a couple of milliamps at most.