Author Topic: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3  (Read 3761 times)

Offline 93spada

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Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« on: November 22, 2017, 08:24:37 AM »
Hi Folks
Having more time than money, I am looking for some input and ideas to update sump so it can be easily installed and removed without tiny fingers. I am open to permanently joining spacer to sump.
Also, could I attach a windage(sp?)  tray to the spacer via the 4 inside tabs?




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Thanks in advance for all the input.
Paul
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2017, 08:50:28 AM »
Yes, I don't see why not the inner 4 tabs, good idea. I did a Bubs w/hydraulic hoses and worked very well. I had also forgot to put a gasket on 1st.  I would use silicone gaskets.
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Offline TOMB

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2017, 08:59:27 AM »
Do not go to the Bub sump. I had one on my bike  G5 and l lost oil pressure twice. After that I went with the Guzzi spacer . No issues with that setup. Now I have a Convert and have the early style Harper's spacer with external filter. This setup works best for me.
As a side note the Bub setup had problems with the rubber hoses splitting coming off the internal attachments, also the shape of the Bub pan made it difficult to support the bike when changing the front tire
Also if you go to the spacer setup remember it does not take a extra chart of oil.
The spacer does ADD more space above the oil to help with the venting of the crankcase however you will need to replace the dipstick because cause the original dipstick won't read correctly. I use the dipstick from a Cali 11 with the spacer.

So it the end you still the same amount of oil that's in the owner manual.
I'm sure others will add there take on this setup
TOMB
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 02:26:14 PM by TOMB »
TOMB

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Offline ccoli

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2017, 10:05:27 AM »
Does your lollipop,  oil pickup, have a screen in it? Mine did not and I lost an engine due to it.
Small piece of  metal came through and destroyed  the oil pump.  Metal piece was broken  it of lock washer that came from the rocker shaft retainer.  Guzziology says to replace those split lockwashers with Schoor washers. Do that on all my bikes now. Sold the Bub sump on ebay.
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Offline LeRoy

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2017, 01:22:17 PM »
Can you clarify what you're trying to achieve? I may be mistaken, but I have the impression that you want to use the Bub deep sump and the Guzzi spacer together. That's what I interpret from your saying you might consider "permanently joining spacer to sump."

If so, that would really reduce your ground clearance. On the other hand, it would also let you add about an extra quart of oil to the sump capacity plus have the benefit of more air space above the oil level. That combination of benefits is an interesting trade-off for the reduced ground clearance.

Permanently joining the spacer to the sump will perhaps make it easier to handle the "sandwiched" parts during assembly. But you'll still need tiny hands because you'll have to install the four through-bolts, and two layers of gaskets, for the internal sump pickup attachments before lifting the sump/spacer assembly into its installed position. In my experience, there isn't much flexibility in the Bub's internal sump hoses. Assembly of the Bub sump by itself is normally a pain. Combining it with the spacer would seem to make it even harder.

It's just me, but I'd choose to run one or the other -- spacer or deep sump -- instead of both.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 01:24:30 PM by LeRoy »
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Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2017, 08:53:50 PM »
Yes, I don't see why not the inner 4 tabs, good idea. I did a Bubs w/hydraulic hoses and worked very well. I had also forgot to put a gasket on 1st.  I would use silicone gaskets.
Little fingers help.

Thanks guzzisteve.

I was thinking plate aluminum cut to fit at 1/2"? clearance all around with holes to accommodate the dip stick and oil return pipe.

I like the hydraulic hose idea. Do you think they could be made long enough to loop inside the sump to give more room to assemble. Would they lay down enough to clear everything. I hate the barb fittings and don't trust them in there.

Thanks fro the help
Paul
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2017, 09:01:56 PM »
Do not go to the Bub sump. I had on on my bike  G5 and l lost oil pressure twice. After that I went with the Guzzi spacer . No issues with that setup. Now I have a Convert and have the early style Harper's spacer with external filter. This setup works best for me.
As a side note the Bub setup had problems with the rubber hoses splitting coming off the internal attachments, also the shape of the Bub pan made it difficult to support the bike when changing the front tire
Also if you go to the spacer setup remember it does not take a extra chart of oil.
The spacer does ADD more space above the oil to help with the venting of the crankcase however you will need to replace the dipstick because cause the original dipstick won't read correctly. I use the dipstick from a Cali 11 with the spacer.

So it the end you still the same amount of oil that's in the owner manual.
I'm sure others will add there take on this setup
TOMB

Hi TOMB,
I just added the MG external filter spacer to my SPIII. That is where the spare spacer came from. Yes it is a great addition!!!

My thought is to replace all those cheesy lines and fittings with something else( maybe except the pickup pipe). I am looking for suggestions to replace the lines to make it easily removed and assembled without tiny fingers.

I would probably still use the spec'd 3 liters of oil.

Thanks for the input.
Paul

PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2017, 09:05:10 PM »
Does your lollipop,  oil pickup, have a screen in it? Mine did not and I lost an engine due to it.
Small piece of  metal came through and destroyed  the oil pump.  Metal piece was broken  it of lock washer that came from the rocker shaft retainer.  Guzziology says to replace those split lockwashers with Schoor washers. Do that on all my bikes now. Sold the Bub sump on ebay.

Thanks ccoli,
I did some web searches and saw your? post somewhere on the broken washer.
GREAT idea.
Don't need any extra parts is parts in the sump.

Thanks again,
Paul
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2017, 09:45:43 PM »
Can you clarify what you're trying to achieve? I may be mistaken, but I have the impression that you want to use the Bub deep sump and the Guzzi spacer together. That's what I interpret from your saying you might consider "permanently joining spacer to sump."

If so, that would really reduce your ground clearance. On the other hand, it would also let you add about an extra quart of oil to the sump capacity plus have the benefit of more air space above the oil level. That combination of benefits is an interesting trade-off for the reduced ground clearance.

Permanently joining the spacer to the sump will perhaps make it easier to handle the "sandwiched" parts during assembly. But you'll still need tiny hands because you'll have to install the four through-bolts, and two layers of gaskets, for the internal sump pickup attachments before lifting the sump/spacer assembly into its installed position. In my experience, there isn't much flexibility in the Bub's internal sump hoses. Assembly of the Bub sump by itself is normally a pain. Combining it with the spacer would seem to make it even harder.

It's just me, but I'd choose to run one or the other -- spacer or deep sump -- instead of both.

Thanks LeRoy
Yes, I was/am thinking of both together. One of our thoughts was that I could replace the inner hoses and make the sump and spacer a one piece assembly.

I did not think of the ground clearance issue. I will have to measure the existing and proposed to see the loss. This is going to be a local blaster bike with my SP as the tourer so maybe a low clearance would be ok. If nothing else I would be close to home if it ground out!!!

We thought about the 4 thru bolts also. Yes that complicates things.
We thought about bolting the bub oil passages to the sump after machining out an oring space between them to stop leakage. The other part to that is the spacer has 2 holes in the front and rear centers and the sump does not. So we would machine out a recess for the 2 bolt head in the spacer and drill and thread the extra holes in the center of the sump to make them as one before putting it back on the engine,

I would have to think about the extra oil. It would add more air space but that was why I was thinking of attaching a home made windage tray to the spacer tabs. Maybe with both together I wouldn't need the tray.

****As you may be able to tell, the bike is on the rack for the winter here in Schenectady, NY and I expect it to be a loooooong coooold winter so time is not a problem!!
This will no doubt turn into an engineering nightmare but it should keep me occupied for a while.

Thanks for the input.
Paul





I always like pics, so here is Irene currently.

PJM

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 09:53:39 PM »
Thanks guzzisteve.

I was thinking plate aluminum cut to fit at 1/2"? clearance all around with holes to accommodate the dip stick and oil return pipe.

I like the hydraulic hose idea. Do you think they could be made long enough to loop inside the sump to give more room to assemble. Would they lay down enough to clear everything. I hate the barb fittings and don't trust them in there.

Thanks fro the help
Paul

That is, of course, what the holes in spacer are for, pretty much every race bike has one there, but best in conjunction with a mesh baffle above it and scraper bolted to crankcase.
But plate usually has big hole around oil filter, dished to drain there.
My only reservation on your plan is oil may not drain quickly enough down sides, actually creating windage with oil bouncing back up, starvation problem v unlikely but may not achieve same result.
Hard to simulate the oil fall at 7k but I think either a mesh plate alone or flat with big dished drain hole would be better.
Just my 2c

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 10:39:12 PM »
What about modifying that sump so that the oil filter feeds could be disconnected externally. If you did that you could create hard lines inside. Removal then would consist of disconnecting the hard lines going to the filter area. I believe all of the rest of the parts could remain attached as you dropped the sump.

Might not have thought that all the way through.

The disconnect would be, ahem, tricky...

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Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2017, 07:36:39 AM »
That is, of course, what the holes in spacer are for, pretty much every race bike has one there, but best in conjunction with a mesh baffle above it and scraper bolted to crankcase.
But plate usually has big hole around oil filter, dished to drain there.
My only reservation on your plan is oil may not drain quickly enough down sides, actually creating windage with oil bouncing back up, starvation problem v unlikely but may not achieve same result.
Hard to simulate the oil fall at 7k but I think either a mesh plate alone or flat with big dished drain hole would be better.
Just my 2c

Thanks for the input. All good thoughts

That makes sense. Maybe the little extra oil would take care of the drain back / starvation issue. Have to do a before and after oil level with and without spacer and sump.

What is the scraper bolted to the crankcase??

As a side note....the spacer is off a 93 SPIII, just after the Dr John Daytona. Did they add those spacer tabs and a plate for that engine????? 

Yes, dished plate or screen. Either would maybe hold looped hoses down in the sump.

Thank You,
Paul
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2017, 07:50:09 AM »
What about modifying that sump so that the oil filter feeds could be disconnected externally. If you did that you could create hard lines inside. Removal then would consist of disconnecting the hard lines going to the filter area. I believe all of the rest of the parts could remain attached as you dropped the sump.

Might not have thought that all the way through.

The disconnect would be, ahem, tricky...



Hi Dave,
We did think about quick disconnects and external disconnects (thanks McMaster-Carr).

The filter would be relatively easy. It has a nut on the outside to hold the whole fitting tight. Take the nut off and the fitting would stay in place as the sump is removed.
The filter return line unfortunately is threaded directly to the sump. Not much room to add a nut on the outside of sump and not create leak at the filter seal.

Ill post pics of the outside of the sump soon.

Overall, That is heading in the direction I like the most. Hard lines and one piece assembly.

Thank you for the ideas.
Paul
PJM

Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2017, 08:52:21 AM »
 






What an awful looking setup far too many connections. No hoses please.
Would it be possible to move all the oil pipes to just the extension so the sump is just a bolt on empty container, the oil suction would extend down from the extension instead of that loose piece.
I would also put the filter inside with all the extra room you have.
Check out the large steel brake line available, 3/8 is a good size.
I like the windage plate idea
The extension could be held to the block with just a couple of short screws from under so you could use a semi permanent gasket.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 09:05:45 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2017, 09:13:12 AM »
What an awful looking setup far too many connections. No hoses please.
Would it be possible to move all the oil pipes to just the extension so the sump is just a bolt on empty container, the oil suction would extend down from the extension instead of that loose piece.
I would also put the filter inside with all the extra room you have.
Check out the large steel brake line available, 3/8 is a good size,

Hi Roy
Isn't it nasty!!!!

Good idea on the spacer connections. Have to look close to see if that is doable.

My end goal is to get the filter on the outside. I am trying to be Guzzi like and frugal,
(I am NOT Cheap!!).

I have to measure the inside diameter of all the plumbing there now to make sure there is enough flow when done. We are still in the theoretical stage of this process.

Thanks for the input.
Paul

PJM

Offline TOMB

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2017, 09:22:39 AM »
Part of the problem with the four long bolt is when you assembly spacers inside that the hoses attached to and you tighten down the bolts some of the holes and it Guzzi crankcase are not drilled deep enough so you're actually bottoming the bolt but not tightening the spacer where the hoses attached, and you don't have a complete seal,  and you have the ability for oil to not flow correctly. If  you read the posts right now looks like to me they're running 50/50 on what you're trying to accomplish good luck. I still vote pass on the Bub spacer.
TOMB
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1972 AMBASSADOR 169000 MILES
1978 G5 170000 MILES
1973 V7 SPORT 25000 MILES
1973 ELDO 300000+ MILES
1980 CX100 50 MILES
1976 CONVERT-56000  MILES AND BUILDING
1976 HONDA CB400F 27 MILES AND BUILDING SOLD

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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2017, 10:05:21 AM »
I'd chuck that Bub sump on eBay and buy something better, like the Harper's Outsider or this one:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_162&products_id=2216
Charlie
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Offline TOMB

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2017, 02:25:29 PM »
Do not go to the Bub sump. I had one on my bike  G5 and l lost oil pressure twice. After that I went with the Guzzi spacer . No issues with that setup. Now I have a Convert and have the early style Harper's spacer with external filter. This setup works best for me.
As a side note the Bub setup had problems with the rubber hoses splitting coming off the internal attachments, also the shape of the Bub pan made it difficult to support the bike when changing the front tire
Also if you go to the spacer setup remember it does not take a extra chart of oil.
The spacer does ADD more space above the oil to help with the venting of the crankcase however you will need to replace the dipstick because cause the original dipstick won't read correctly. I use the dipstick from a Cali 11 with the spacer.

So it the end you still the same amount of oil that's in the owner manual.
I'm sure others will add there take on this setup
TOMB
TOMB

1972 AMBASSADOR 169000 MILES
1978 G5 170000 MILES
1973 V7 SPORT 25000 MILES
1973 ELDO 300000+ MILES
1980 CX100 50 MILES
1976 CONVERT-56000  MILES AND BUILDING
1976 HONDA CB400F 27 MILES AND BUILDING SOLD

MGNOC # 2723

Offline twhitaker

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2017, 08:07:55 PM »
As to the cornering clearance you could attach a piece of modeling clay to the sump to see.
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2017, 08:29:10 PM »
Thanks for the input. All good thoughts

That makes sense. Maybe the little extra oil would take care of the drain back / starvation issue. Have to do a before and after oil level with and without spacer and sump.

What is the scraper bolted to the crankcase??

As a side note....the spacer is off a 93 SPIII, just after the Dr John Daytona. Did they add those spacer tabs and a plate for that engine????? 

Yes, dished plate or screen. Either would maybe hold looped hoses down in the sump.

Thank You,
Paul
Donít have pix at hand but if you get write up of wittners (dr John) race bike you should get good pix. I saw bolts on his crankcase, read up on v8 windage and made similar. Is only a piece of angle iron cut to just miss conrods and crank, scrapes the oil off every revolution,

No , spacer always had these tabs, even when it was only a kit part for early Le Mans

Funny part is factory never supplied the plate itself, just the mounting for it.
A lot of aftermarket spacers do not have them and probably for normal street use there is little to be gained. But with high rpm windage is major issue

Online swooshdave

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2017, 08:36:48 PM »
Hi Dave,
We did think about quick disconnects and external disconnects (thanks McMaster-Carr).

The filter would be relatively easy. It has a nut on the outside to hold the whole fitting tight. Take the nut off and the fitting would stay in place as the sump is removed.
The filter return line unfortunately is threaded directly to the sump. Not much room to add a nut on the outside of sump and not create leak at the filter seal.

Ill post pics of the outside of the sump soon.

Overall, That is heading in the direction I like the most. Hard lines and one piece assembly.

Thank you for the ideas.
Paul

I have the Bub on my 850T so I have vested interest in your explorations.

Iíve never opened it up so Iíd love to see too many pictures of it.


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Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2017, 07:24:34 AM »
I'd chuck that Bub sump on eBay and buy something better, like the Harper's Outsider or this one:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_162&products_id=2216

Hi Charlie
Yup!!!!
 I think most sane people would.
I saw one for $220 on some site. That would cover the cost of the MG one. BUT.....I don't think the Bub will sell for that???
On the other hand, its not mine, its my brothers and we don't do ebay, yet.
 Maybe some day.
Thanks
Paul
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Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2017, 07:39:56 AM »
Part of the problem with the four long bolt is when you assembly spacers inside that the hoses attached to and you tighten down the bolts some of the holes and it Guzzi crankcase are not drilled deep enough so you're actually bottoming the bolt but not tightening the spacer where the hoses attached, and you don't have a complete seal,  and you have the ability for oil to not flow correctly. If  you read the posts right now looks like to me they're running 50/50 on what you're trying to accomplish good luck. I still vote pass on the Bub spacer.
TOMB

Good thoughts TOMB
We thought about the 4 bolts. Not the bottoming but, pre-bolting the Bub oil ports to the spacer after machining out top and bottom to recess the heads on the spacer top side. Then putting alignment pins in the crank case the size of the recess's.
We thought we would have to put recess's in the oil port joints to add orings to stop any leakage. But, since we would be making it (sump and spacer) one piece, would the standard gasket between the two do the sane thing??

Yes to the 50/50. but at this point I've got 5 months to figure it out or scrap it.

Thanks again
Paul
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2017, 07:49:17 AM »
As to the cornering clearance you could attach a piece of modeling clay to the sump to see.

 Great idea Twhitaker,
I am not sure what grinds the ground on this yet. The bike had not been on the road since 2009. Then she got caught in the 2011 Lee and Irene flood here in the NE. (she was under 8' of water and fish poop). The tires are 2009 vintage so I have been very careful cornering. New tires will go on next spring. OH NO......not another tire thread!!!!

Thanks
Paul
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2017, 08:02:45 AM »
Donít have pix at hand but if you get write up of wittners (dr John) race bike you should get good pix. I saw bolts on his crankcase, read up on v8 windage and made similar. Is only a piece of angle iron cut to just miss conrods and crank, scrapes the oil off every revolution,

No , spacer always had these tabs, even when it was only a kit part for early Le Mans

Funny part is factory never supplied the plate itself, just the mounting for it.
A lot of aftermarket spacers do not have them and probably for normal street use there is little to be gained. But with high rpm windage is major issue

jacksonracingcomau
I just saw the bolts on the side of Dr Johns after following the other post. Very interesting idea. If I understand what the angle iron does, to scrape the oil and not have the moving parts hit, the tolerance would be above my pay grade.

I don't expect this bike to be "normal" street use. I am going to use this to get my adrenalin fix and flog the hell out of it. My SPIII will be for touring and putting.

Thanks
Paul
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2017, 08:08:55 AM »
I have the Bub on my 850T so I have vested interest in your explorations.

Iíve never opened it up so Iíd love to see too many pictures of it.


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Hi Dave
I will post more pics on Monday/Tuesday. Its not in my garage but 20 miles away.

As everyone has said though, I would pull it and AT LEAST replace all the hoses soon.
Yes it will be a PITA but could save the engine.

Paul
PJM

Offline 93spada

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2017, 07:57:26 AM »
Hi Dave
I will post more pics on Monday/Tuesday. Its not in my garage but 20 miles away.

As everyone has said though, I would pull it and AT LEAST replace all the hoses soon.
Yes it will be a PITA but could save the engine.

Paul

Hi Dave, Here are more pics. Not much else to see.
My brother brought up a good point though. If you pull it off and think about replacing and the bike is a daily rider, get a replacement sump first.












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Good luck!!
Paul
PJM

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2017, 11:35:53 AM »
If, at the end of the day, what you want is an external oil filter and even more additional sump oil capacity, the simplest and most sanitary solution might be something like an original Guzzi deep sump plus a Harper's Outsider. The Guzzi deep sumps have been used on Tonti-based and other big-block Guzzis since somewhere in the mid- to late-90s, so you'll eventually find one online or at a parts supplier. The Harper's Outsider is available directly from Harpers or occasionally as a used piece. You could easily sink $3-400 bucks into obtaining these parts, so there's an economic challenge.

Since you probably don't have either of these you're considering arriving at a similar end result by using the parts you have on hand; the Guzzi sump spacer and Bub sump. To my mind, there's not going to be an easy way to achieve this and preserve some form of serviceability and assembly/disassembly ease. Still, typical Guzzi owner frugality and a long winter may yield some interesting results. Press on!
LeRoy (Bob Sharp)
Rochester, MI  U.S.A.
'86 LM 1000 (since new in '86)
'79 V1000 G5 (as of '08 and since sold)
'76 V1000 Convert (since Nov. 09)
'83 1000SP (as of Oct. 15)

Online swooshdave

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2017, 12:08:23 PM »
I think he just called Guzzi owners cheap. Probably not a lot of evidence to the contrary.


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2001 V11 Sport
1972 Norton Production Racer Replica
1973 Bultaco Sherpa T
1975 Ducati 860GT

Online swooshdave

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Re: Bub sump and spacer windage plate for T3
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2017, 11:03:49 AM »
Hi Dave,
We did think about quick disconnects and external disconnects (thanks McMaster-Carr).

The filter would be relatively easy. It has a nut on the outside to hold the whole fitting tight. Take the nut off and the fitting would stay in place as the sump is removed.
The filter return line unfortunately is threaded directly to the sump. Not much room to add a nut on the outside of sump and not create leak at the filter seal.

Ill post pics of the outside of the sump soon.

Overall, That is heading in the direction I like the most. Hard lines and one piece assembly.

Thank you for the ideas.
Paul

How about countersinking the return fitting? Is there enough meat there to still hold onto a different return fitting (similar to the feed side)?

I've been playing around with another setup using a crude 3D model, let me see if I can get that done and show that. It would take minimal work and use simple materials.
--
2001 V11 Sport
1972 Norton Production Racer Replica
1973 Bultaco Sherpa T
1975 Ducati 860GT

 

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