Author Topic: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.  (Read 11547 times)

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2018, 04:55:19 PM »
Hi Ulrik   

Yes it must have been the same packer.  :laugh:

Yesterday was spent driving down to the city, a new 3 cylinder compressor will arrive today and the electrician will come Thursday to fit a 15 amp outlet direct to the power board so I can soda blast some of the castings. ( I did not want to blast anything if possible)
When I got back I spent a little time on the block off plate for better or worse.

If I had an agenda it would be never be afraid of trying something new and would hope by posting a few pictures someone out there might consider buying a small lathe or mill/drill and having a go themselves.
My trade is boilermaker / welder so far removed from any form of machining but get by. (Thank you for the comments all the same)





I got a set of the VHB slides off eBay (They are reproductions going by the description) and tracking says they arrived in Australia on the 7th so should be here by Friday.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2018, 05:25:35 AM »
12 pictures in total, I notice I can not see some pictures in other posts without reloading the page.
#
I forget which year I replaced the universal support bearing but remember it pressed out with no problems.





To press the new one in a mandrel was turned, the spigot in the centre fit the bearing bore, the face was relieved so only the outer race was being pressed.
The OD with clearance so it could press the bearing home without binding in the bore for the bearing and allow the circlip to seat securely.





Same bench but 1000 kms away from the location of the pictures above.
I picked up some bearings for the pivot a week or so back and the trusty chinesium slide hammer removed the cups that were still in place.
A mandrel with a 12 mm deep step and 0.05 mm (0.002") under 40 mm diameter made installing the cups easy.



First the sleeve.





The bigger diameter of the mandrel had been faced in the lathe also so it was used to start and fit the bearing cup flush.
Flip it around to the shouldered side and seat it with a couple of taps.







Same again on the other side.



I like this stuff, very tacky and stays put.



The electrician is here in the morning to install an outlet for the compressor but will pack the bearing inners and fit the seals tomorrow.
I need to finish wall mounting the clothes dryer first, exciting stuff.


Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2018, 05:58:34 PM »
First things first eh Les :wink: but the pics are lovely thank you :grin:
Oz
04 Cali
As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 12:52:58 AM »
All good balvenie.  :thumb:

The eBay VHB slides arrived today.
Original 60 slide on the right, that new slide sure does look like a 40 cutaway and suggests the same thing in a carburetor, side by side.
I will get back to them and might be missing (not seeing) something, code blue is soda blasting for tomorrow.



« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 10:02:34 PM by Les P »

Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2018, 03:00:19 AM »
Filth :wink:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 06:50:02 PM »
Here you go then, the swing arm is as about as ready as it will ever be.

The bearing cup installer got a bleed hole so it could be used to seat the seals to avoid any air pressure in that cavity.



I put a little extra grease in there.





Seal in with no drama, it got a wipe of rubber grease as did the OD of the spacer piece.



Maybe there is some secret way to install these but the extra grease was to allow for air pressure, now when the pin is installed that pressure should push some of that extra grease though the bearing to replace any that might be expelled.
I don't expect to look inside here once in stalled in the frame for some time.




Joe (bsanut) got back to me about the eBay VHB slides and said I can send them back, to hard, will machine them into 60 cutaway.
I got a set of the bigger outlet 'torpedo's so wonder if the jetting (including cutaway) is the same (big and small outlet muffler)
Early days but could make any cutaway including slightly richer than a 60.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2018, 11:33:38 PM »
With all that progress yesterday I thought I better catch up with some other bits that had gathered dust.
As posted a ways back, I had found the final drive ring and pinion to be some what beyond service (Either little to no oil or lack of moly additive perhaps)

Anyway who knows how many years ago I had picked up another complete unit off eBay and the pinion was still in its carrier until after lunch today.
I started off tacking an old drive shaft coupling to the end of a Norton fork stanchion, that and a large 36 mm ring spanner did nothing even with some heat on the nut.
Loctite (and double dimpled nut) I bet.

Next was putting the pinion head between hard wood and nylon plate in the press and with heat again it got the impact gun treatment.
Nothing.

Out came the adjustable speed die grinder with (USA) burr.
Holy cow, this is how much it took and still came off with some effort even though cracked, and yes the Loctite was even under the taper roller bearing.
Any way it came up nice, it is a good OEM set, I heard some of the aftermarket sets are not as good as original parts.
The housing ball bearing carrier was warmed and old bearing pushed out easily.











« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 10:03:15 PM by Les P »

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 03:08:48 AM »
The pinion carrier got some new bearings, first thing I noticed but standard for any stepped shaft with a fillet was the heavy shims were only beveled on the ID on one side, a check showed installed the right way the shim was flush.



The new bearings were a little tight so the pinion shaft got a very light polish in the lathe and trial fit until they pushed on with moderate force without binding.
A quick look on MG Cycle past orders showed I had got some spare pinion shims last year so hunted them down. (Both of the final drives, original and eBay only had 0.15 mm shims)
With a bit of juggling of tube spacers and shims I got it down to a reliable 0.02 mm (less than 0.001") end float with the nut pulled up.
I don't know how hot these things get and if the pinion carrier housing will grow closing up that end float, I might try and get a little more tomorrow but under 0.05 mm.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 11:18:55 PM by Les P »

Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 03:17:46 AM »
Fascinating and very good pics :grin:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2018, 10:57:55 PM »
I got back this morning to find a package at the door.
Thanks for the heads up Charlie.

It was only the rears showing any real wear and were probably still serviceable but 4 'NOS wheel bearings from Germany.


Offline JoeW

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2018, 07:56:37 AM »
The pinion carrier got some new bearings and then a bit of fiddly stuff to while away a few hours.
Working to a half millimeter is normally close enough.



First thing I noticed but standard for any stepped shaft with a fillet was the heavy shims were only beveled on the ID on one side, a check showed installed the right way the shim was flush.



The new bearings were a little tight so the pinion shaft got a very light polish in the lathe and trial fit until they pushed on with moderate force without binding.
A quick look on MG Cycle past orders showed I had got some spare pinion shims last year so hunted them down. (Both of the final drives, original and eBay only had 0.15 mm shims)
With a bit of juggling of tube spacers and shims I got it down to a reliable 0.02 mm (less than 0.001") end float with the nut pulled up.
I don't know how hot these things get and if the pinion carrier housing will grow closing up that end float, I might try and get a little more tomorrow but under 0.05 mm.


It's been my experience that pinion bearings should have no play. In automotive applications, they are set up with drag. Moto Guzzi does not give any information on this as far as I can see. I've consulted several people in the automotive differential rebuilding business and some older workshop manuals. I've found that the recommended drag on pinion bearings, whether adjusted by crush sleeve or shims, is 20 to 25 inch pounds with new bearings and 12 to 15 with used ones. Also, torquing the 36 mm nut is important. Again, I can't find a spec for torque, I'm tightening them to 120 ft lbs.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Joe Walano

Offline Garmst

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2018, 02:53:41 AM »
Howdy,
by any chance did you change the main bearings? I am looking for used undersize that I can fit to my crank.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2018, 06:21:07 PM »
Thanks for that Joe, I will check it again.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2018, 06:37:23 PM »
Howdy,
by any chance did you change the main bearings? I am looking for used undersize that I can fit to my crank.

There are plenty of secondhand ones on eBay, maybe the grumpy guy has some.

The bearing flanges out of this bike were junk.
Not very good photo's but they are pocked, I do not know enough about this type of bearing material to know if it was high mileage, chromium off the bore or a combination of the two.




« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 10:04:41 PM by Les P »

Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2018, 09:05:53 PM »
Onya Les :thumb:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline SED

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2018, 12:07:10 AM »
Great work and attention to detail.  Love the machine work. Thanks!
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2018, 04:37:27 AM »
You won't believe it but five weeks later, nothing, six months and one day after that box of busted parts was posted, nothing.
The order I payed for a month ago that contained a new rear bearing and other needed parts (I figured I could at least get the crankshaft ground) you got it, not shipped.
I guess in another life I pi$$ed off the Moto Guzzi gods it seems.  :laugh:

The months long search for a replacement gearbox or gearbox internals went nowhere so I ended up grabbing the sight unseen 1000SP gearbox off the San Francisco Craigslist after a phone call to the seller.
It should arrive this week and given the risk am hoping for the best, I have some concerns that being 60 next year I might run out of time  :violent1:

The Craglist picture.


With a bit of luck it will be a good one and the internals can go in the original Eldorado case which gets all new bearings.
I will work on something else until then.



Thailand last week and the latest scooter apparel, I'm trying to warm her up to the idea of a two up India trip in the new year.


Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2018, 07:19:24 PM »
That's a very nice Norton, Les but terrible about the "missing" parts :cry:
Oz
04 Cali
As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2018, 10:04:20 PM »
I have a couple of Commando's.

I just got off the phone to the USA, the International bank check I posted to pay for that transmission was payed out and then a month later the funds were deducted from the account and the check returned (to the seller).
It seems I have a trans somewhere in the post I haven't payed for it !

Other than that things are going well.
HMB will send me the one cylinder they have in stock , the other one availability is unknown at this stage........

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2018, 11:25:55 PM »
You won't believe it, there is a drama.  :laugh: :grin:
A visit to my bank has revealed a hiccup (luckily I had taken a photo of the cheque / check) so am waiting for an update before Interpol / FBI or similar start looking for me.


It all started when I read this thread many years ago, if only I had known..  :laugh: :laugh:

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/1972-moto-guzzi-on-trans-labrador-highway-dont-need-no-stinkin-gs.718205/

Balvenie, it is what it is, one step forward, a couple sideways ............





Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2018, 04:10:32 AM »
Heaven help you Les :cry: :cry: :cry:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2018, 06:49:17 PM »
One 1983 Moto Guzzi 1000SP gearbox / transmission just picked up from the post office.



Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2018, 07:36:21 PM »
 :grin: :grin: :grin:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2018, 12:35:47 AM »
wow, that needs a bit of cleaning :)

Hope you don't get hunted down by FBI or some equivalent  :grin:

Sorry to hear about all the trouble with your parts. I found out the other day that my brand new PHF36's was delivered with two different types of slides   :rolleyes: So I have to figure something out about that too.

-Ulrik 
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2018, 05:30:04 AM »
I picked up and posted another bank cheque/check this afternoon, this one had the right encoding etc and should be in the USA mid week.
Curiosity got the better of me, I cleaned all the gunk off the case in kerosene, dried it off and removed the rear cover then pulled the two gear cluster shafts/gears.
Obviously I couldn't see the inner surfaces where the needle rollers run but the gears and dogs (put my reading glasses on) look very nice, I don't think you would find better.
No galling, no pitting, no chips and all of the dogs are very nice.

It does have the later roller type thrust bearing (steel/bronze?/steel thrust in the Eldo trans) but nothing is jumping out to suggest it will not go as a complete unit into the 1973 trans case.
I have a complete set of HMB Guzzi bearings for the original case (I will use the double row ball units they supplied) new needle rollers and other sundries.
  :grin:



 


Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2018, 04:35:36 AM »
I wish you the very best of luck Les and a truck load of money :grin:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2018, 08:29:58 PM »
Its pretty much ready to reassemble, I will use the double row bearings that came in the HMB kit.
The shift drum had a 0.8mm front shim, 1 mm at the rear and doubt the box had ever been opened, the front shim was swapped for a 1 mm for now.





Thanks for reminding me, yes the rejuvenation of this old bus has been expensive to date and I haven't really done anything.
I am off to file my tax return, maybe the government will chip in this time.


Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2018, 06:32:45 AM »
Hi Les,

That gearbox looks really nice now! Well done on the cleaning, how did you do it? Normal degreasing or vapour blasting?

-Ulrik 
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996

Offline Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2018, 06:39:03 AM »
Hello Ulrik
That is the original Eldorado case, I do not like vapour blasting so much (It has a silver sheen to it like paint, I did get a cylinder head done on my other Triumph TR5T)
I already had a complete HMB bearing kit to use, I will use the double row bearings that are included.

That trans case got the hand wire brush (Brass bristle) first which was OK, then soda blast, then Duragloss 853 which is a alloy cleaner.
The finish is OK but will blast it (soda) one more time. ( I use the hand brush on the trans gears also then kerosene wash)

My overdue HMB order (with one cylinder kit ?) is on the way according to a DHL email which includes some more final drive shims and a billet M4 rear bearing so the crankshaft can go for grinding undersize.

I had been doing the forks (new stanchions, seals, springs and bronze bushes ) but after hours of looking can not find the wire clips and shims if there were any that secure the top bush so will have to get back to that.

I want to be careful with this bike being original paint so no over polished bits, it is hard to get realistic photo's.
Most of the pieces are super fine steel wool with WD40 instead of polish (Autosol etc)
I want more of a looked after look but not overdone, also it is a bike to be used.






Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2018, 05:54:43 AM »
Thank you for the Autosol alternative, Les. That alloy looks good :grin:
Oz
04 Cali
As ye practice, so do ye teach.

 

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