03 EV clutch plate replacement? Clutch problem found

[drdwb]

The question is simple,how does one know for absolute sure if clutch plates need replacement?

The reason for the question is a longer story,but I will try to keep it short and on point.
Last fall I ran it hard for me (95 + for 160 miles ,one quick stop for gas) after filling up getting back on the road clutch starts slipping, hard to pick up speed and leaving stop signs only long slow letting out of clutch allows me to get any speed, and above 3500 rpm it slips in all gears. I get home and adjust cable at lever and lower end, but didn�t touch adjustment at rear of tranny, quick run same slipping. I assume it�s plates, bike has 35,000 and probably 15,000 pulling a loaded camper trailer.

So today I start the process of taking stuff off so I can do the crab thing,I�m reading my notes from replacing the single failed plate on my wife�s 04 Stone touring and find a note saying the arm at the back of the tranny should be 90 degrees to shaft, mine is a little out from that.
 Question, 1 if I adjust it in tighter what�s the worst result of being to tight?
Being winter here in Minnesota, roads and weather don�t allow test runs in the near future.

So is there any way short of ripping into it to know if the plates really need changing?
I have all the parts needed to do the job,and I have the next couple weekends to do it,but  man if I go in and find I didn�t need to that�s gonna take a bite out of my beer drinking time.
And or time I could should be spending doing the rear shock work on my 07 Norge.

Any suggestions?
Dave

[pehayes]

First, can you confirm if you have single plate or dual plate on this bike?

35K seems awfully young for a clutch failure.  Dual plates should get near 100K.

Could it be that your cable is too tight?  You should always have some loose slop in the cable when fully released.
Could it be that the lever at the back of the transmission is hitting something?  If the lever moves back and hits the frame, the cable can go slack but there is still pressure on the throwout system and plates and they will slip.

Pull the clutch hand lever with only one finger.  We don't want  you to activate the clutch, just move the cable and lever system.  Look down at the tip of the lever on the back of the transmission.  When you pull in and release so gently on the hand lever, does the tip of the transmission lever move similarly?  If that one finger action is merely tensioning the cable and not actually moving the transmission lever then that points at something wrong with the transmission lever adjuster or throwout bearing.

Was there ever any serious rapid or instantaneous change in clutch adjustment?  Such might indicate a piece of friction material breaking off the plate and suddenly altering the adjustment position.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[guzzisteve]

If you have twin plates and there is freeplay in the cable then the springs are doing their job. You can't add more pressure to them. You could wash them w/mineral spirits and see if that would help.

[drdwb]

Patrick thanks for reply, it  has double plates, bike had 35,000 on it before the odometer quit 5 years and probably 8-10,000 miles ago. Honestly the Ev hasn’t had a lot of consistent miles put on since I got the Norge 3 years ago, which is why the problem surprised me also. I’ll do the checks you suggest tomorrow, when I took the exhaust and rear tire off on the lift today it was really the first time I could see the arm,which is what got me thinking it could be out of adjustment. 
It was just funny how it was running strong as normal and within a couple hours it started slipping. Than the weather turned and I put off doing anything until now, and like most norther midwestern riders March and April is when we start thinking about April and May riding.

[Wayne Orwig]

35,000 on a twin plate clutch. The plates would not be worn out.
You either have a fractured plate, pretty common, or transmission oil on the plates. (engine oil is hard to migrate to the plates)

Also, I have seen the lever pivot at the rear of the transmission corrode and bind, causing drag on the clutch. Make sure the lever pivot is free and lubed.

Are you getting oil out the drain hole? You might be able to get away with the mineral spirits clean up for a while. I would go in and fix it right and be done with it.
The springs may be weakened also.

If you go in, seal up all leaks, including new seals on the pushrod. New springs. New plates. Deglaze the pressure plate surfaces.
 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

You either have a fractured plate, pretty common...

This ^^^. If it has friction plates with "spokes" in the center, then one plate has likely fractured and the other is trying to do all the work. It too is likely on it's way out.

[fotoguzzi]

Dave, do you need the tool?

[drdwb]

Thanks for all replies.Im grabbing cup of coffee and headed out to check Patrick’s tests.
No oil leak looking through hole on right side nothing looked abnormal no oil visible.

Foto I had two copies of your tool made when you let me use it to work on the Stone.Thank you.

Funny thing to me is there is / was no rattling noise with clutch in or out.  With out starting it,when I shift it from neutral to first and try to roll the rear wheel by hand it seems ok no noise or dragging grinding sounds, and seems to go in and out of gear ok.

I’m taking pictures as I break it down, if and when I find the cause I’ll post what it looks like.
Thanks all.
Crab is not my favorite sea food. Too much work to get to the good stuff.
Dave

[pehayes]

This ^^^. If it has friction plates with "spokes" in the center, then one plate has likely fractured and the other is trying to do all the work. It too is likely on it's way out.

I couldn't find a good online picture of a fully fractured clutch disc.  This is what I found in my EV at 90K.  Still working, but not far from total failure.

BTW, pulling a loaded trailer would surely do such damage.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[balvenie]

After looking up an old post of mine I carefully wrote down this address
wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=805571.msg1411028#msg1411028

Look for reply #12

[fotoguzzi]

After looking up an old post of mine I carefully wrote down this address
wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=805571.msg1411028#msg1411028

Look for reply #12

maybe copy and paste rather than writing it down, when I go there,

An Error Has Occurred!

[drdwb]

Balvenie I tried doing it cut and paste and entering manual get same result,error or I’m unable to view this post?

[balvenie]

Sorry drdwb and foto
I will investigate

[balvenie]

Sorry drdwb and foto
I will investigate

OK, I'm back. Typed that address into my browser and got it. I have No idea and am computer illiterate. If desperate for a look at my dead old clutch it is on p4 of my posts under, "Slipping Clutch and Strange Noises".

Once more, sorry for the confusion

[flower_king001]

The same thing happened to my '98 EV. The lever pivot pin was so corroded we couldn't remove it. We tried penetrating oil, heat ect. End result was the ears on the back of the transmission plate broken with continued heat and hammering with a punch. Purchased a new back plate and all was good. 

Also, I have seen the lever pivot at the rear of the transmission corrode and bind, causing drag on the clutch. Make sure the lever pivot is free and lubed.

[drdwb]

So for those wondering what did I find here it is ,pretty self explanatory. So what I dont know is why did the plate shatter like this? At most the bike has 40-45,000 miles on it and yes I did pull a fully loaded camper trailer. But if you can see the thickness of the material on the plates you see there wasn�t much worn off. The spacer gear and fly wheel were scorched,luckily I had a replacement, gear from doing the wife�s 1100 Stone,that I used.It took quite a bit of effort with some 600 grit sand paper to clean the fly wheel up,thankfully no scratches or gouges in it. So I guess a double clutch California can malfunction, must be defective material.
So it all went back together ok with the exception of the swing arm, the right hand side bearings were rusted and shot,the race is so pitted that sanding would probably take it out of specs, so this week the swing arm is going to local machine shop, hopefully they can get the race out and replace it and get a new set of bearings for both sides.

So that�s it clutch plates, can fail before their time.
Dave







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[fotoguzzi]

seen that a few times.. I think there is a better replacement friction disk available, I forgot the brand name.

[guzzisteve]

A friends new 07 Norge did the same thing 2 times under warranty, the 3rd set were these put in under warranty

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165

[pehayes]

First, by nominal specification, a new clutch plate is 8mm thick and considered totally worn trash when it reduces to 7mm.  Not much really.  So, just because you SEE a lot of friction material doesn't mean it will really work well.

Second, once you lost the core out of one plate you were now effectively transmitting ALL of the force through the other plate.  50% loss of function.  You would have had the same slipping results if you used new plates and tried to drive them with a big motor delivery TWICE the power.

Third, the SD-Tec seems to be the current flavor of choice for replacement plates.  http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165  Now spinning in my 98EV.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

So for those wondering what did I find here it is ,pretty self explanatory. So what I dont know is why did the plate shatter like this? At most the bike has 40-45,000 miles on it and yes I did pull a fully loaded camper trailer. But if you can see the thickness of the material on the plates you see there wasn�t much worn off. The spacer gear and fly wheel were scorched,luckily I had a replacement, gear from doing the wife�s 1100 Stone,that I used.It took quite a bit of effort with some 600 grit sand paper to clean the fly wheel up,thankfully no scratches or gouges in it. So I guess a double clutch California can malfunction, must be defective material.
So it all went back together ok with the exception of the swing arm, the right hand side bearings were rusted and shot,the race is so pitted that sanding would probably take it out of specs, so this week the swing arm is going to local machine shop, hopefully they can get the race out and replace it and get a new set of bearings for both sides.

So that�s it clutch plates, can fail before their time.
Dave







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That's exactly what Nick D's clutch looked like when his '03 EV had the same symptoms. Very common. The spokes flex, fatigue and finally fracture - no mystery why they fail.

The swingarm pivot bearings are fairly common, so there shouldn't be any issues with finding them. The trade number is 30203, should be available at any bearing supply warehouse. I find removing them is easiest with a "blind hole bearing puller". 

[drdwb]

The swingarm pivot bearings are fairly common, so there shouldn't be any issues with finding them. The trade number is 30203, should be available at any bearing supply warehouse. I find removing them is easiest with a "blind hole bearing puller".
[/quote]

Thanks for the # that will help.
My difficulty will be removing the old race, so to machine shop it will go. Also I don’t have a tool in my collection long enough to reach the clip on the shaft for removal. But maybe time to find one.
Dave

[Wayne Orwig]

So for those wondering what did I find here it is ,pretty self explanatory. So what I dont know is why did the plate shatter like this? Dave

Seen that from the factory plates all too often. I was told that the SD-TEC plates have a slightly thicker metal. Plus if I recall, they do not have the cut out which makes it weaker.
Oddly, all of the failures that I have seen on factory plates, have rivets ripped out of the friction material. I often thought the rivet failed, then things went bad. In your case it appears the metal just failed.
Anyway, of the number of SD-TEC plates I have install, I have not seen a failure. The only oddity is the initial break in is concerning. But it quickly stabilzes.

[Wayne Orwig]

My difficulty will be removing the old race, so to machine shop it will go. Also I don�t have a tool in my collection long enough to reach the clip on the shaft for removal. But maybe time to find one.

Swingarm pivot bearing? Clip on the shaft?
Is there a clip in there?

[pehayes]

Circlip?  Sounds like you are talking about the Universal Joint Carrier Bearing down inside the shaft.  The tapered pivot bearings on either side do not have clips.  Please comment back and clarify.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[drdwb]

Ok Right side swing arm bearing and race rusted pitted and shot. If I were home I’d take a picture, rear end of drive shaft has a sirclip holding the shaft in the housing preventing it from being pulled out  from the front side.

[guzzisteve]

Take out the grub screw underneath, tie a wire on u-joint and pull while smacking the the shaft forward w/a BIG hammer and a drift, it will ALL come out , carrier bearing and all.
I just helped a member in FL get his out, don't be afraid to hit it hard while holding swingarm.

[Wayne Orwig]

Ok Right side swing arm bearing and race rusted pitted and shot. If I were home I�d take a picture, rear end of drive shaft has a sirclip holding the shaft in the housing preventing it from being pulled out  from the front side.

Now I understand. You want to get the driveshaft out, before working on the pivot bearing.

You probably don't really need to.
I forget how I got that circlip off. It likely involved destroying it. I suppose it does need to come off to fit through the bearing hole on that model. (earlier models, the u-joint and shaft were separate pieces.)

[rodekyll]

There are two arrangements for keeping the drive shaft carrier bearing in place.  The old way used a big circlip in front of the bearing.  The new way is a grub screw, or set screw that is in the same postion as the circlip (ahead of the bearing).  The 2003 has the latter arrangement.  It's removed from underneath the swing arm.  It can be hard to find in the normal dirt buildup.  As Steve (and maybe some others -- didn't read all of the comments) said, pull the grub screw and knock the entire business out from the tail end forward.  I've found the grub screw to be easier to deal with than the circlip.

If the swing arm bearing race won't come out with a blind race puller, it can be removed without machine shop intervention by scoring the race with a dremel to reduce the "interference" friction.  Then the blind race puller will extract it with a minimum of fuss.  Remember that the bearing only moves a few degrees this way and that way -- like a sterring head bearing.  It doesn't do circles like a wheel bearing.  So if you get a nick in the race seat area while relieving the race for removal,  it's not going o be the end of the world.

[dguzzi]

Is there a good write up on all this clutch replacement?  Not the crabbing part but the actual "do this, don't do that " stuff?  Looks like I should be prepared.

[drdwb]

The grub screw was the answer thanks,filled with crud but cleaned out came right out,minimal wacking with punch and hammer,shaft came right out. So here�s pic of right hand race,kinda nasty, but now seeing shaft in light look at splines, should I be concerned,and since I�m there replace shaft? Looks like it to me. Suggestions?