Something you Cali 1400 owners won�t want to hear.....

[pete roper]

The non availability of grease to assemble the swingarm bearings seen on the CARC bikes has continued onto the Cali series. Michael has been ripping the Cali wreck apart and yes, sorry, the bearings are as dry as a nun�s chuff and rusted to buggery. It�s a 2015 model in case anyone asks.

Next time yer bike goes in for a service get this addressed. It won�t be as cheap as on a CARC bike as there is a whole lot more munt to get off to access them but it�s better than waiting for a bearing to collapse and then going arse over tit.

Pete

[Kjon]

Mine had some lube. My Cali was one of the first off the line, so the grease might just be a good will gesture on behalf of Moto Guzzi.. 

Jon

[pete roper]

I often wonder about this as others have spoke of theirbearings having *Some* grease.

They should be stuffed as full as possible, not just visible wisps of grease as used by manufacturers to prevent corrosion during transport!

Unfortunately it seems that ‘Customers’ don’t like to see grease on a ‘New’ bike nowadays and wiping off excess is perhaps too labour intensive so anyone who actually rides and maintains their bikes ends up getting the rough end of the pineapple as they have to pull the arse end out to get the job done correctly, (Often with new bearings!) at their own expense!

Arse!

Pete

[Luap McKeever]

I've always wondered why they didn't put a grease insert there. Guess they're just not pretty enough.

[pete roper]

It�s not quite that simple, not that they would of done it because doing that sort of thing costs money!

As it is there is no easy way to install a grease fitting. The bearings on the Calis and CARC bikes sit in the frame and have a spindle stuck through them from the left hand side that threads into the RH side of the swingarm. The bearings are then preloaded by a collar with a cast elated end, the same way basically as you would do trailer wheel bearings or steering head bearings.

I did get Mark Foster, who posts here from time to time as �Oldtime� to make me a �Faux� spindle drilled and accurately cross-drilled so that the �Real� spindle could be removed, this one inserted and then grease pumped down the middle of it as into the very small space betwixt the seal in the frame and the bearing. Did it work? Yes, it did! But the amount of embuggerance involved compared to the amount of time saved proved it to be the sort of self defeating deadshit idea that I so often castigate others for so discretion being the better part of Valor I stopped using it and nowadays we just do it once, do it right, by removing the wretched rear and and packing the bearings correctly, (Often after replacing them.).

The thing is if the bearings ARE properly packed they will last very well and are virtually impervious to water intrusion, (We use a particularly sticky �Marine Grade� grease for this task.) and have had bikes back after over 100,000km of far from gentle use and the swingarm bearings were still golden!

As I said. It�s gunna need doing. Do it early and you�ll probably save yourself the cost of new bearings.

Leave it and you risk not only the cost of new bearings, (Minor cost.) and a bit more labour but also the worry about a bearing collapse. If that happens not only will it likely cost you a spindle as well as bearings but might also really spoil your day!

Your choice but my advice would be to just do it.

Pete

[kingoffleece]

I'll never look at pineapples the same way again.............. ....

[drbone641]

Pete, when you say "it's expensive", about how many hours of labor are you talking? My bike is up in ATL, getting tires, so I guess I might need to call.

[pete roper]

At the moment Michael is stripping this broken shitter I bought to do the 1400 conversion on my Stelvio. It�s also being used as a �Learning Experience�. If Michael takes over the biz then he�ll likely be dealing with sorting the same �Issues� that I�ve spent the last 12 years getting to know with the CARC bikes and 8V�s.

As such it�s the first time he or I have delved this far into a member of the Cali 14 family so any estimate on time required should be viewed through that prism of ignorance. Cali 14�s are rareish here, for all I know there may be workshops in the US for whom ripping the back ends out of Calis is an everyday event and that might substantially reduce the time required. I simply don�t know.

As a comparison if we grease the swingarm bearings and linkage on a CARC bike, depending on model we charge about 2.5 hrs. The Cali 14 seems to have a lot more extraneous munt that has to be removed before you pull the swingarm but there again it doesn�t have a shock linkage to disassemble and grease. I�d guess, very vaguely, holding my tongue at just the right angle and squinting a lot I would say three hours depending on whether it was a �Touring�, bagged up model, or a naked one like a Custom or Audace. With any of the models with close fitting contoured bodywork and luggage I wouldn�t be able to even hazard a guess as we�ve never laid a spanner on one. Sorry.

As stated, this is all guesswork but I�ll ask Michael for a second opinion tomorrow if you like?

Pete

[Zoom Zoom]

I guess the more things change, the more things stay the same.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention Pete. I guess I'll add that to my to do list.

John Henry

[drbone641]

Hopefully, since I asked them to check the spline for lube while changing the tire, they will and hopefully, since the previous owner was a maintenance stickler, I will be ok, they will check and find gobs o grease. If not, I will probably report here how many hours are required  I told them I had never had a Guzzi before and she was going on a big adventure in 3 weeks. Fingers crossed they are competent.

[mtiberio]

Doesn't surprise me Pete. On my 2014 (13?) 1400 which I sold after one year and 15,000 miles, the rear wheel was rusted solid to the output spline of the rear drive unit. To pull the wheel (to change the rear tire at 11K), I had to remove the cush drive IIRC. It was the brightest red rust I had ever seen.

[Ncdan]

Since a 2015 1400 tourer followed me home yesterday I�m involved in this issue. First question is why in the hell does MG not step up when an obvious problem exists with a whole series of their product!:(
Mine only has 2900 miles so should I just wait until my first tire change when it�s stripped down already or go through time and money intensive operation now?
Is this a confirmed issue with ALL these models or just the ones the Italians put together on Monday?
Thanks Pete for the great news:)

[Ncdan]

Follow up on my last post.
I just got off the phone with the service manager at my one and only dealer in NC and inquired about this obvious grease bearing issue. The manager advised me there has been no recalls, or even service tech memos concerning this issue. I was further advised that they have never had this issue over the years with dozens of these bikes they have replaced rear tires on and repacked the bearings in question. I advised them that I had total confirmation that this issue has occurred numerous time around the globe that it has and does occur due to information on the Guzzi forum. The response was what one would figure from a dealer, don’t always believe what you read. Now I really don’t know how to react to this information:( let me be clear, I trust Pete more than a Guzzi service manager!

[Lannis]

Follow up on my last post.
I just got off the phone with the service manager at my one and only dealer in NC and inquired about this obvious grease bearing issue. The manager advised me there has been no recalls, or even service tech memos concerning this issue. I was further advised that they have never had this issue over the years with dozens of these bikes they have replaced rear tires on and repacked the bearings in question. I advised them that I had total confirmation that this issue has occurred numerous time around the globe that it has and does occur due to information on the Guzzi forum. The response was what one would figure from a dealer, don�t always believe what you read. Now I really don�t know how to react to this information:( let me be clear, I trust Pete more than a Guzzi service manager!

Dealers seem to ALWAYS say that.   Many of them (not all, but many) are totally ignorant of things that I KNOW are true from experience, and that dozens of my riding companions KNOW are true from their own experience.

Some of it may be our (not "our" as in present company, but "our" in terms of motorcycle owners) problem, in that many people spread ridiculous Internet rumors and urban legends, but why the average dealer is not AT LEAST as up to date on the issues associated with the product by which he makes a living as we are, I'll never know.   If I were a dealer, this would be my first visit every morning when I got to the shop ....

Lannis

[NC Steve]

NcDan, were you speaking with the Guzzi dealer down near Charlotte? I'm sure you've probably aware, but there's a new dealer in Greensboro, and I've heard a few good things about them, so it might be worth talking to their service manager there also. They are an established shop that handles Indian, Motus and until recently, Victory. The owner also operates the shop a few blocks away that sells Triumph, Royal Enfield, Vespa, and a few other smaller brands as well.

https://indianmotorcyclegreensboro.com/

[lucian]

Thanks for the heads up Pete.  Not surprising after seeing how dry the griso's bearings came through. Figures I just got done putting a new rear tire on. I suppose you couldn't resist scaring the crap out of us wit that title.  If this is the worst you guys find during the autopsy I'll be impressed.

[mtiberio]

Dealers seem to ALWAYS say that.   Many of them (not all, but many) are totally ignorant of things that I KNOW are true from experience, and that dozens of my riding companions KNOW are true from their own experience.

Some of it may be our (not "our" as in present company, but "our" in terms of motorcycle owners) problem, in that many people spread ridiculous Internet rumors and urban legends, but why the average dealer is not AT LEAST as up to date on the issues associated with the product by which he makes a living as we are, I'll never know.   If I were a dealer, this would be my first visit every morning when I got to the shop ....

Lannis

I see some dealers that look at Moto Guzzi as just another product to make money off of. No long term love of the product. They could just as easily be selling chain saws, etc.

[Kev m]

Follow up on my last post.
I just got off the phone with the service manager at my one and only dealer in NC and inquired about this obvious grease bearing issue. The manager advised me there has been no recalls, or even service tech memos concerning this issue. I was further advised that they have never had this issue over the years with dozens of these bikes they have replaced rear tires on and repacked the bearings in question. I advised them that I had total confirmation that this issue has occurred numerous time around the globe that it has and does occur due to information on the Guzzi forum. The response was what one would figure from a dealer, don�t always believe what you read. Now I really don�t know how to react to this information:( let me be clear, I trust Pete more than a Guzzi service manager!

Don't EVER tell a service manager or dealer employee that you "read about it on a forum".

Instead tell them the truth, from another point of view, that:

"A good friend and major Guzzi dealer and his tech warned you they have continued to uncover this potential problem when overhauling new Californias and CARC bikes. Failures won't occur until the bike is out of warranty so Piaggio doesn't give a crap about a technical bulletin. But you would like to perform this preventative maintenance in case you hold onto this bike for many tens of thousands of miles."

Or something like that.

[Lannis]

Instead tell them the truth, from another point of view, .....

A student of Obi-Wan Kenobie, I see .... 

That's a good way to go, but it's a shame you should have to tell them that.   People don't seem to know much about their own trade or profession these days ....

Lannis

[LowRyter]

A student of Obi-Wan Kenobie, I see .... 

That's a good way to go, but it's a shame you should have to tell them that.   People don't seem to know much about their own trade or profession these days ....

Lannis

Ok,  But if you tell the service manager that Pete Roper had discovered this, it should have some salt.   (Even if you had to explain who Mr Roper is.  Two minutes on the 'net should convince anyone).

[Kev m]

Ok,  But if you tell the service manager that Pete Roper had discovered this, it should have some salt.   (Even if you had to explain who Mr Roper is.  Two minutes on the 'net should convince anyone).

But that's 119 seconds more than MOST service managers are going to bother looking... 

[John A]

But that's 119 seconds more than MOST service managers are going to bother looking... 

That is true, they are usually overloaded and real tired of talking to people who will argue endlessly about a bill that is two dollars over the estimate and also having to represent " mechanics" who wouldn't be a pimple on an aviation mechanics arse. They are in the position of trying to get paid for preventative maintenance that shouldn't be necessary had the factory done their job professionally.

[Lannis]

Well, let me give "Moto Richmond" (Scoot Richmond) a Service Star in this area.   When I brought my Stelvio in for the roller conversion, they had not previously done one of these jobs (this was an '09 so the more comprehensive "C" kit).

But they got up to speed fast, including pulling up Pete's video and learning a bit about the history, and learned how to negotiate with Guzzi to make sure we paid the minimum on this end.

They did the job for a reasonable amount, looked up the centerstand recall and did that too, and remapped it appropriately.   

And they'll sit and listen to you talk about what you THINK might be wrong as long as you like; well, as long as I like, anyhow, I don't know about others.   No one's trying to "put you off" or get you to "go away" there ....

Lannis

[Tkelly]

Don't know much about this problem but Pete has the best grasp of the english language since Mark Twain.How about a book?

[pete roper]

Just to be clear on this as there seems to be a bit of confusion I�m not talking about wheel bearings or anything in the Bevelbox/final drive area, I�m talking about the bearings that the swingarm pivots on in the frame.

To get to them, especially on a bike with bags, is a BIG job. Exhausts off, bags off, then there are lots of covers and hocus-pocus that have to be removed before you can access the swingarm spindle which works the same way and uses the same bearings as the CARC bikes.

Yes, it would obviously be best to combine the inspection with other work like a tyre change but the amount of time/money saved is not going to be large in the overall scheme of things.

Problem will also be that with a virtually new bike the chances are that if it is taken apart the bearings won�t of had time to go rusty! No doubt some shops will take great pleasure in telling owners who ask for them to be inspected and re-packed the job was �Un-necessary�. Believe me, it�s not. The small wisp of grease the bearings come with from their manufacturer is NOT sufficient to protect them in service. They need to be stuffed to the max, preferably with a marine grade �Waterproof� grease.

Pete

[Huzo]

There needs to be a spacer between the seal and the race, especially on the right hand side.
The seal in mine was a crumpled piece of debris in the bearing space that had been dislodged on assembly at Mandello so effectively never had a seal at all !
The spindle was also dry and rusty and as tight as a fish's arse in the races, an absolute **** to remove, and the races came out COMPLETELY DRY ! There was absolutely no evidence of grease at all !
Worse still, you can't tell if you've dislodged the right hand seal once the spindle is installed, (hence the need for a spacer so the seal can't "travel" with the drag on the spindle upon installation.

I'm not currently staring at it, but could there not be a grease nipple installed in the swingarm at each race location ?

[pete roper]

The bearings aren’t in the swingarm Peter, they’re in the frame and no, there’s no room.

Pete

[Huzo]

The bearings aren�t in the swingarm Peter, they�re in the frame and no, there�s no room.

Pete

Ok mate.
I've put new ones in and packed them solid but was dredging my memory to try to re imagine the image.
Anyway.
Mine'll need a clutch in the next year or so and that'll be arse up in the air and in with the paws.
(Norge's arse, not mine...)
I'll re pack them again then.
Thanks.

[pete roper]

Follow up on my last post.
I just got off the phone with the service manager at my one and only dealer in NC and inquired about this obvious grease bearing issue. The manager advised me there has been no recalls, or even service tech memos concerning this issue. I was further advised that they have never had this issue over the years with dozens of these bikes they have replaced rear tires on and repacked the bearings in question. I advised them that I had total confirmation that this issue has occurred numerous time around the globe that it has and does occur due to information on the Guzzi forum. The response was what one would figure from a dealer, don�t always believe what you read. Now I really don�t know how to react to this information:( let me be clear, I trust Pete more than a Guzzi service manager!

Dan, let�s be quite clear about this, there isn�t and never will be any kind of service bulletin regarding an issue like this because greasing bearings on assembly is just such a basic thing one assumes it is just done right!

Likewise workshops won�t know about this sort of thing unless they have reason to go in and find out about it! I don�t have x-ray vision or second sight! I wasn�t aware of the absence of grease issue on the CARC bikes until I started to have to pull them apart for other problems like the leaky rear main bearing flange on early 8V�s and fitting aftermarket shocks for people. If you�re running the sort of shop where �Servicing� involves an oil change and maybe a filter? If you�re really lucky a valve lash check and a look at the tyre pressures then until a bearing fails catastrophically the shop won�t know anything about a problem! That doesn�t mean it isn�t there. I know from experience that the bearings can get pretty bloody bad before some people notice any problem! The first 1200 Sport I pulled the swingarm on the bearings came out minced! The cage had completely disintegrated and most of the rollers had turned to dust! The owner did say after the fact that he thought the back end hadn�t been feeling �Quite right� for a while!

Look, whether people choose to act on our findings is entirely up to them. These are critically important bearings though and the idea of finding myself sitting atop 270kg of lumbering �Cruiser� and suddenly having the rear wheel drop out of alignment after hitting a bump at speed is not something I�d want to contemplate. In fact thinking about the consequences should be enough to make a bit of wee escape from anyone who understands the rudimentaries of single track vehicle design and the laws of physics!

Yes it�s stupid and shameful that the bearings aren�t packed properly at the factory, (Believe me Guzzi isn�t Robinson Crusoe in this regard!) but bitching about it through your wired up jaw from traction in your hospital bed isn�t going to fix the problem or make it go away! Far better to just get it done and if the bearings are found to have a tonne of grease in them you can come back here and tell everyone what an idiot I am and the haters can all have a little gloat!

Pete

[lucian]

With or without grease from factory ALL the carc bikes need periodic swingarm maintenance.  The swingarm bearings are prone to water egress at the split for the pinch bolts, the driveshaft splines will corrode from condensation .  My Cali rear rim was corroded onto the drive hub at 5,000 miles. Weather or not the factory stuffed things full of grease on assembly doesn't really matter after you own it.  Hat's off to Roper for telling it like it is.  He saved literally hundreds , if not thousands of 8v owners complete motor failure by spending his spare time getting to the bottom of the flat tappet fiasco. Now , if not by accident , for his quest for a silly 1400 cc dirt bike he is kind enough to again share his hard earned knowledge with all us , I am humbled , and great full. Thank's Pete , You make the world and WG a better place to hang.