Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuck750 on April 20, 2019, 08:21:04 PM
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I have stuck to my "No Ducati" rule for thirty plus years …. but all rules are meant to be broken!
I saw an ad for a Ducati 860 GT in eastern Canada and I should have known better but I called the seller and after a couple days reviewing pictures a deal was struck. The bike is a 1975 model, kick start single front disc. it has been repainted and it runs. The Giugiaro styling screams 1970's Italian angular lines, considered ugly in the day by many I find the lines to grow on me. The bike is somewhere between Toronto and here in Edmonton, can't wait to kick it over and hear the Conti's bark.
I would like to return it to look just like this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/65QQWX4D/Duc-860-Gt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Anyone have experience with these square edge bevels and can offer some advice on caring for it?
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Such cool dna in those. Those lines do grow on a guy as they age.
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I wish you good fortune...my 860 GT was the absolute worst factory 'lemon' I ever owned...more time in shop than on road...
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My friend Joseph's electric start 860GT has been in my shed for several years now. Total basketcase, I wish he'd do something with it, I could use the space.
(https://i.ibb.co/HBdnrsh/Joseph-s-Ducati-860-GTS-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HBdnrsh)
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The House of Giugiaro penned a lot of iconic designs in the 70's. to name a few
Alpha
Maserati
Lotus
VW
I think the Ducati 860 design was done on a Friday, probably at 4:45 …...
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That's not particularly "dark".
I've seen worse!
Lannis
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Canuck, once you’ve finished with yours, don’t expect it to look like the publicity shot.
Yours will look better..
Do they run the same geometry as the Darmah..?
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Now that is my favorite Ducati model! :thumb:
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You'll be punished :angry:
(https://i.ibb.co/cwkQbZQ/Lightening-Shelley.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cwkQbZQ)
rebuilt title meaning in florida (https://carinsuranceguru.org/how-to-insure-a-car-with-a-salvage-title-in-texas)
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I bought a tragedy of a 900GTS in 2013 and rebuilt it completely as below. The GT belongs to a friend of mine and we were on a tour of Scotland.
The 864 Bevel engine in any form really is a wonderful creation. Plenty of power from any revs, completely smooth and sounds glorious.
The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering. Mdina Italia in UK is a good source of spares, and I found Ian Gowanloch in Australia to be a goldmine of rare parts.
I did blog the rebuild here, but since the demise of photobucket most of the photos have been deleted.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?19560-Another-900-GTS-story.-The-Black-Pig
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46743055935_5470b2947d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v)DSC_1847 (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v) by Derek0812 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79848745@N02/), on Flickr
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My friend had a 900GT. With him and his Conti's and me on my 850-T with Dunstal's the sound was pure Italian soul. I love the motor on that bike,took a little more effort the steer then the T, seat was a 2x4 with a cover and I thought it was a cool looking bike.
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I bought a tragedy of a 900GTS in 2013 and rebuilt it completely as below. The GT belongs to a friend of mine and we were on a tour of Scotland.
The 864 Bevel engine in any form really is a wonderful creation. Plenty of power from any revs, completely smooth and sounds glorious.
The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering. Mdina Italia in UK is a good source of spares, and I found Ian Gowanloch in Australia to be a goldmine of rare parts.
I did blog the rebuild here, but since the demise of photobucket most of the photos have been deleted.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?19560-Another-900-GTS-story.-The-Black-Pig
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46743055935_5470b2947d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v)DSC_1847 (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v) by Derek0812 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79848745@N02/), on Flickr
Great looking bikes and thank you for the link to your blog, I have some reading to do!
Do you have a paint colour for your copper 860 GT, I want to have the bike painted that colour, I think its the 'right' colour for the bike and the era.
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Canuck, once you’ve finished with yours, don’t expect it to look like the publicity shot.
Yours will look better..
Do they run the same geometry as the Darmah..?
I don't think so. The Darmah was quicker steering. I had both.. and loved the GTS. Should never have traded for the Darmah. A friend rode to work on his 2 GTSs year round. (!) Put over 100, 000 miles on both.
I wish you good fortune...my 860 GT was the absolute worst factory 'lemon' I ever owned...more time in shop than on road...
Just goes to show ya.. I had exactly the opposite experience. :grin:
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Just goes to show ya.. I had exactly the opposite experience. :grin:
That's good to hear Chuck!
Hopefully I won't need to rebuild the lump but it sure is tempting to tear the engine down just to try and understand how those bevel drives work :evil:
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Canuck, once you’ve finished with yours, don’t expect it to look like the publicity shot.
Yours will look better..
Do they run the same geometry as the Darmah..?
Thanks Huzo!
Can't tell you much about the Ducati design but a friend has a couple 860's and he is going to give it the once over when the bike arrives. My buddy is also building a 860 based custom with a lot of bespoke parts including hand made alloy tank and panels from a metal beating god in the U.K. It's going to be beauty.
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That's good to hear Chuck!
Hopefully I won't need to rebuild the lump but it sure is tempting to tear the engine down just to try and understand how those bevel drives work :evil:
Jewelry..
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Hi Jim
I had a round case 750Gt years ago. Heaven to ride but hell to keep it fit to ride. Knowing your work and that you leave nothing unattended, you stand a better chance of successful ownership. Did the bike come from Steve in Toronto?
Harry
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The frame on the 860GT has the same geometry as a Darmah, but later Darmahs came with longer rear shocks that make the steering a bit more responsive. Neither of them handle as well as a 750GT, as discussed here before.
It’s nice to see a stock orange 860, most of them have been hacked up. They were never the best looking version but I think our eyes have since been exposed to completely different levels of ugly (newer BMWs etc) and so they look OK today.
They are not in my view terribly difficult bikes to maintain. The biggest potential issue on any bevel twin Ducati is the condition of the connecting rod big end bearings. I’ve replaced them and it is a lot of work. Valve guides can also be worn, but the top end is very simple to work on.
They are very nice bikes to ride, although the silky smoothness of the engine takes a little getting used to in comparison with most older bikes.
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nice bike, as long as you dont plan to ride it much.
forget everything you now about expensive spare parts, ducati bevels spare parts are in a class of their own.
i recently tried to buy a used engine cover for my ss, bid on ebay , the cover eventually sold for over 1000 dollar
huh? :cry:
that is what keeping me from riding my 900SS more , even a small mishap will end up pretty expensive.
having said that , you will be appreciating the guzzi spare parts availability
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Hi Jim
I had a round case 750Gt years ago. Heaven to ride but hell to keep it fit to ride. Knowing your work and that you leave nothing unattended, you stand a better chance of successful ownership. Did the bike come from Steve in Toronto?
Harry
Not a Mr. Troupe bike, this one was owned by a J. Cummings. It was advertised on the CVMG for sale site.
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I’m not sure about the lines of the bodywork, but the engine itself is so beautiful that it makes up for any deficiencies.
Please keep us posted on your experiment in breaking a 30 year “No Ducati” rule.
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Hello
I am looking forward to this rebuild, I am sure that the results will be outstanding.
There were not that many 860GT produced and good on on you choosing a standard restoration. Most would be flogged out or if money is spent on them, they become SS replicas.
One thing that is not expensive is the 860GT bodywork. I'd suggest tracking down a couple of sets so that you can make the best of the 'far out!' 70's colours that were on offer. I personally don't like the metallic bronze in the brochure but love, love the metallic green of this even fewer 860 GTE (electric start) http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/thumbnails.php?album=87 GT were also orange, so a nice stir for the Laverda crowd :grin:
Two other suggestions fit lower handle bars (see link photos) for better highway comfort and spend the money, buy an improved crank for piece of mind for you and resale.
And here's a website that might offer something to you http://www.ducatimeccanica.com
Hope you enjoy.
Cheers
Jason
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Hello
I am looking forward to this rebuild, I am sure that the results will be outstanding.
There were not that many 860GT produced and good on on you choosing a standard restoration. Most would be flogged out or if money is spent on them, they become SS replicas.
One thing that is not expensive is the 860GT bodywork. I'd suggest tracking down a couple of sets so that you can make the best of the 'far out!' 70's colours that were on offer. I personally don't like the metallic bronze in the brochure but love, love the metallic green of this even fewer 860 GTE (electric start) http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/thumbnails.php?album=87 GT were also orange, so a nice stir for the Laverda crowd :grin:
Two other suggestions fit lower handle bars (see link photos) for better highway comfort and spend the money, buy an improved crank for piece of mind for you and resale.
And here's a website that might offer something to you http://www.ducatimeccanica.com
Hope you enjoy.
Cheers
Jason
Thanks fore the website, I have seen the fellows bikes before, he is down south from me and several local Ducati guys have dealt with him in the past, mixed opinions. There is another Ducati mechanic who really knows his bevels just south of Calgary I have met and I think I may take it to him for an opinion on the engine after I have had a listen to it running.
The green bike is quite stunning but I have a green Benelli 650s Tornado so I think a copper bike is in order. I am going for variety of Italian bikes and colours in my collection :wink: All of the bikes I have found are in my opinion works of art, each is unique but the consistency of detail the Italians put into their machines is really second to none.
The Japanese may build a 'better' bike, and in the day the British may have dominated the market but the Italians …. their work truly stirs the soul!
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I was big into Ducati back in the 80's. I had a round case 750 GT, a square case Darmah 900 and a square case 900SS.
As stated, the GTS was considered hideous-looking back then and they were priced at the bottom of the spectrum.
I serviced my bevel-drive twins and they weren't too difficult to check/set the Desmo clearances. One of the weak points was in the electric start mechanism of bikes so equipped. The one-way Sprague clutch sprocket would go bad and need replacing.
I preferred the kick-start-only models. All of mine started up easily.
The 900SS was a runnin sumbich. Bare bones and visceral. I miss it.
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The 860GTE didn't even have a sprag clutch in the electric start system. It had what is quite possibly the most "Rube Goldberg" electric start arrangement of any Italian motorcycle engine. From memory, there is a Marelli solenoid (like on a Loop starter), mounted to the frame, which pulls on a rod, moves a bellcrank, pulls a rod and moves another bellcrank, and finally engages a bendix gear with the primary gear on the clutch. Any metal bits shed during that "engagement" are then in the engine oil. Not good. You can see the arm of one bellcrank and one rod in this photo.
(http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/albums/userpics/10001/PA-860-022.jpg)
I guess it looked better than Ducati's first attempt at putting electric start on their "L" twin, the 750GTe:
(http://luxuryautomotosale.com/sites/default/files/ebay_112549208967_4.jpg)
Makes the Moto Morini "giant wiper motor, chain-driven centrifugal clutch" setup look simple and logical. :wink:
Jim - be glad that yours is kickstart only.
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And now you know why non-electric start engine side covers sell for big bux. :grin: Another reason depending on year is that with the right cover and a few other odds and ends you can convert some (later) Darmah engines into a 900SS engine.
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There's a few notable & relatively unique characteristics about the 860GT that aren't present on just about any other Ducati.
Firstly, there's the abovementioned Italdesign engine crankcases & bodywork. Gorgio Giugiaro's styling efforts were fairly polarising in its day. A common theme was that he should've stuck to four wheeled styling exercises. Time has perhaps been a little kinder to the 860GT than contemporary commentators. Certainly, there was a necessity to cut production costs and to simplify manufacture from the rather complex & costly 750 Round-case models.
Its extremely short production run (Sept '74 - July '75), and numbers (<3000) is indicative of flagging demand. This also serves to increase the model's rarity & perhaps (in modern terms) relative desirability.
It features the first iteration of the new 860 engine, with the square cases, (in later GTE guise) electric starter, and complex & expensive to manufacture cam towers and bevel driven OHC valve actuation.
Notably this & its 750GT predecessor are also notable for having a NON-Desmodromic valve actuation. Instead using the much more ubiquitous (in all other manufacturers) conventional coil spring valve return. As far as I'm aware, it's the last valve-sprung Ducati manufactured. Blasphemy to some snobbish, diehard Ducatisti wankers I'm sure, but nevertheless providing a much more reliable and less fraught valve clearance adjustment mechanism that doesn't require the convoluted & time consuming double-Desmo shimming process. Both non-Desmo GT models have proven over the years to be extremely reliable & much less temperamental machines. It was also the first Duke (I think) to use the fabulously simple & effective eccentric swingarm mount/chain adjustment mechanism. An exemplary example of simplicity & efficiency that could well be revisited by more modern manufacturers.
The addition of Contis, Laverda bars, rearsets, Imola tuned length pipes & race camshafts effectively transformed my own bike into a boy-racer replica with all the attendant hassles of reluctant (kick) cold starting, lumpy idling & stalling tendencies that rendered it at times virtually unrideable.
The milder motor, less intense tuning, later electric starter, standardised (small-ish) 32mm Dell-Orto carbs, tamer LaFranconi Silentium mufflers, much less extreme frame geometry, Ceriani front fork & Marzocchi rear cartsprings & upright seating position combined to make this easily the most city-friendly bevel drive Duke of all time. In fact, the very antithesis of its more extreme 750 & 900ss stablemates.
A couple of things to watch out for: just because there isn't the necessity for high-frequency valve adjustments any more doesn't mean you should skimp on oil & filter change frequency. The GTs still have a fairly complex OHC drive mechanism to support, using high oil pump (80 PSI) pressure. Keep the good oil up to it.
Also, on the RHS rear of the crankcase there's a little gear shaft protruding through just for'ard of the front sprocket shafy that has a small indicator (neutral light) switch cam lobe. A remnant of the original right-foot gearchange perhaps?? My (900SS) model was perpetually weeping oil out of a damaged shaft seal. It was annoying, but manageable: only occurring during use. For me it became a convenient de-facto chain oiler, but also tended to spray excess oil (engine oil is a bit thin after all) all over the rear wheel & mudguard. To eliminate the problem without going to the expense of splitting the vertical crankcase & losing those all-important wired security seals you could remove the brass neutral light cam lobe (a grub screw) & cap the now useless jack-shaft with a small alloy cup either threaded or welded into the recess.
These models always had a proper bitch of a (heavy) wet clutch actuation. You really need an extremely strong left hand grip, and even then the bike has a tendency to break cables. Keep another on hand to allow for these contingencies is my recommendation. It may not be the same for your smaller 32s, but my 40mm Dell'Ortos were almost perpetually going out of sync too. Maybe a function of the asymmetric cylinder layout? A simple adjustment, however, that you'll soon get the hang of. I changed the twistgrip to a "fast action" eccentric one that took better advantage of the carb's accelerator pumps.
It's been almost 40 years since I last had my own Ducati, so that's about all I can remember. Just don't fu#k it up with ridiculous boy racer accessories like I did to mine is about my main recommendation.
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If anyone can pull it off Jim will
I look forward to the blow by blow description.
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You really need an extremely strong left hand grip, and even then the bike has a tendency to break cables.
Oh, yeah.. now I remember that one. I got pretty good at riding home without the clutch. :grin:
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A couple of things to watch out for: just because there isn't the necessity for high-frequency valve adjustments any more doesn't mean you should skimp on oil & filter change frequency. The GTs still have a fairly complex OHC drive mechanism to support, using high oil pump (80 PSI) pressure. Keep the good oil up to it.
Ducati Bevel engines are all ball and roller bearing and the oil pump runs at low pressure. Only the Mille engine uses plain bearings and runs at high pressure.
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I bought a tragedy of a 900GTS in 2013 and rebuilt it completely as below. The GT belongs to a friend of mine and we were on a tour of Scotland.
The 864 Bevel engine in any form really is a wonderful creation. Plenty of power from any revs, completely smooth and sounds glorious.
The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering. Mdina Italia in UK is a good source of spares, and I found Ian Gowanloch in Australia to be a goldmine of rare parts.
I did blog the rebuild here, but since the demise of photobucket most of the photos have been deleted.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?19560-Another-900-GTS-story.-The-Black-Pig
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46743055935_5470b2947d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v)DSC_1847 (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v) by Derek0812 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79848745@N02/), on Flickr
What a difference a seat makes. I don't mind the styling... as was said, so much water under the bridge at this point, makes it look fresh... but that copper bike's seat.... it looks like its missing something..its like being left visually hanging... the blue bike seat resolves itself...
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Between the original 860GT and the revised 900GTS, Ducati built some GTs with a different seat.
(https://i.ibb.co/2KGtDjs/3-BB7-C112-128-F-4865-B1-F3-0-B69-A2-CE556-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2KGtDjs)
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Mine was just like the blue one in the picture except it was orange. It's one of the very few bikes I've had that I'd like to have back. :smiley:
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The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering.
Wow, you sure wern't kidding, I have been going through a couple Ducati specialist web sites including Bevel Heaven. Looks like if you put 'Ducati' in front of the part description the price doubles from the same part for a Guzzi!!
I hope the 860 GT doesn't need much in the way of propriety Ducati pieces or it won't be in my stable for long. :shocked:
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The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering.
Wow, you sure werne't kidding, I have been going through a couple Ducati specialist web sites including Bevel Heaven. Looks like if you put 'Ducati' in front of the part description the price doubles from the same part for a Guzzi!!
I hope the 860 GT doesn't need much in the way of propriety Ducati pieces or it won't be in my stable for long. :shocked:
Welcome to the world of old Ducks. :grin: :grin:
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US vendors for bevel Duc parts are typically substantially more expensive for the same parts than Australian or UK vendors.
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Oh dear! They tell us these days that life is about choices. I believe, IMHO, that there are two choices for bevel Ducati ownership.
I dont want to bag the beasts, they are lovely to ride while they are going, I nearly bought a 750GT once. Luckily, after I test rode it, the old boy at the bike shop said "take that Matchless shitter away & cash it in somewhere else & come back with the money & we will talk business". I also rode mates 860s, they made nice power & steered well but they couldnt keep up with my V7 Sport in the corners, they didnt have the ground clearance.
There are now 2 stories of 100,000 mile examples,the one above & my mate's 750 GT, maybe there are more, but they are a big deal for good reason. We all know the short life big end stories, they are real, and when you know a bit of metallurgy you understand why. I have seen inside some at a workshop run by a good friend, he often showed us the gear shafts with pitting from the rollers pulling the hardening off, then there are the cracked heads, and, and, and.......
So, the two choices; 1, paint it, polish it & put it in the lounge, or 2, if you wish to ride it, biff the bullshit bevel engine in the bin, cut the front frame tubes out & fit a Vincent engine!
It will be cheaper to build a new engine. Buy cases from the VOC spares company then 1200cc squish band heads, barrels, pistons, crank, cam gear & 5 speed box from Terry Prince in Australia & you will have an engine your children & grandchildren will be able to buy spares for in their lifetime, at sensible prices. PRT :evil:
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There are a number of 750GTs that have been ridden 100K miles. They were relatively low powered bikes that didn’t stress the big ends greatly. The first 860s had a lot more big end issues but these were rectified to a degree by larger big end bearings fitted to later 860 engines. They last a lot longer if you hold the revs to a reasonable number, in spite of the smooth engine and exhaust bark encouraging you to rev it past redline. My ‘83 Darmah went 40K miles before being torn apart, the big end bearings were still fine at that point but were replaced because the thrust washers were starting to saw slots in the pin.
I don’t think Vincents are really relevant in relation to Italian v-twins - the bevel Ducati is in another world on the road. In comparison with a Guzzi, my bevel SS is a better sport bike, my Le Mans a better mile eater, just as legend would have it. Cornering clearance is comparable and both can be improved. I used to scrape the header pipe on my SS but longer Koni shocks and a NOS tucked-in Hailwood header for the rear cylinder almost eliminated that issue... I’ve only touched the Hailwood pipe a couple of times :grin:
(https://i.ibb.co/VJGprn7/EA4480-D5-E41-A-43-C9-BD44-052316401-F64.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VJGprn7)
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Vincent , powerfull tractor with plenty torque.
Goose , fast locomotive.
Duke , wild bronco.
Next can of worms : what oil for bevel Duke ? :popcorn:
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I had two bought used 750 Ducati 750 GT's between the late 70's and 80's. I don't remember overreving the engines as the power fell off quickly after about 7200 rpm..They were smooth compared to other bikes of the era.. Acceleration similar to a SOHC Honda 750...Remarkable stability and the slow handling. After I sold the second Ducati I bought a well used Lemans1...The Guzzi was faster, lumpy at low speeds and smooth at higher RPM's. The Guzzi handled well but I did notice the rear suspension jacking up and down with throttle movements, better rear shocks may have helped... In comparison my 96 900 Monster has far quicker handling,runs lumpy at low speeds but is much faster than any stock bevel drive..Any year V twin Ducati is a distinct experience and very different than other bikes ,especially Asian bikes..Better or worse is opinion of course.
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Following this thread now. Want to learn more about this generation Ducati models.
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My 750 GT basket saga:
http://forum.bevelheaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4543
For parts, got them all over the place. One of the better sources is Harne' in The Netherlands:
https://www.ducaticlassics.com/
He has a very nice lay-out for parts selection based on the parts manual diagrams.
These guys in Germany had some hard to find stuff: https://www.desmo.shop/
And these ones: http://www.unmuessig-moto-italia.de/DUCATI-Koenigswelle.22.0.html
Bevel Rubber too of course: http://www.bevelrubber.com.au/cart/
Also ORSP in Italy: http://www.oldracingspareparts.com/twin-models-3/750-gt-s-ss-1974/
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsGGWNqj/750gtrh.jpg)
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Wow, I subscribed just in time for the score of the century on links! ^ Thanks!
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My 750 GT basket saga:
http://forum.bevelheaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4543
For parts, got them all over the place. One of the better sources is Harne' in The Netherlands:
https://www.ducaticlassics.com/
He has a very nice lay-out for parts selection based on the parts manual diagrams.
These guys in Germany had some hard to find stuff: https://www.desmo.shop/
And these ones: http://www.unmuessig-moto-italia.de/DUCATI-Koenigswelle.22.0.html
Bevel Rubber too of course: http://www.bevelrubber.com.au/cart/
Also ORSP in Italy: http://www.oldracingspareparts.com/twin-models-3/750-gt-s-ss-1974/
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsGGWNqj/750gtrh.jpg)
Thanks George, excellent information. I am potentially diving off the cliff working on a deal to buy a complete but disassembled 1973 Ducati 750 GT. My 860 GT is supposed to arrive This coming Monday.
Jim
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Diving off a cliff? Could be the start of something really worthwhile :grin: try this; http://www.bikeexif.com/vincati now aint that a pretty motorcycle!
These guys will help with new engine cases; http://new.vincentspares.co.uk/
Terry makes great cranks, cheaper and stronger than any Bevel crank will ever be; https://www.classicmotorbikes.com.au/spare-parts/
There are some great Vincent engine builders in Canada, I can get you some leads. Oh, and you can have an electric starter hidden under the motor where nobody will see it. :grin:
I ride my Vincent like my Guzzis, it's done 4000 miles this year, same as my Lemonvert, which I know is not a lot, but that has been rain, hail and shine. I dont treat it like a delicate little flower, its seen 100 Mph and forded salt water. (We barged some bikes to a remote place & rode them home. The barge ramp couldnt get fully ashore, my magnesium racing magneto got douched but never missed a beat. It got douched again with fresh water when I got home)
Think about it, seriously! PRT
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Should also mention too that Wolfgang Hearter in Nakusp BC Canada is a great source for 60's,70's, & 80's Brembo, Dellorto, CEV, etc. Exellent prices especially now if you're buying with US $'s. He also just happened to have a 750 GT seat cover kicking around when I was looking for one, so ask him for Ducati-specific stuff too.
http://www.laverda.ca/
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Going to the dark side indeed :evil: :evil:
The 860GT and now a 750GT surprise package fun times ahead.
In addition to the previously suggested webpages, in have not used but have heard good reports for these Aussie businesses
http://www.reband.com.au/ducati.html Mmmmm Gianelli 2-1 but the Coniti might be more appropriate for the GTs
https://beltandbevel.com.au
And due to the number of bevel Ducati (relatively) check out Australian eBay eg 860GT front mudguard and side cover each a reasonable $75 - no! I'm not the seller
Of all of my bikes, my daughters both say that they prefer the Darmah over everything else. I reckon you will enjoy and you'll end up making money on the 750.
Cheers
Jason
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Should also mention too that Wolfgang Hearter in Nakusp BC Canada is a great source for 60's,70's, & 80's Brembo, Dellorto, CEV, etc. Exellent prices especially now if you're buying with US $'s. He also just happened to have a 750 GT seat cover kicking around when I was looking for one, so ask him for Ducati-specific stuff too.
http://www.laverda.ca/
Thanks George,
Wolfgang rebuilt the bottom end of my Laverda SF1 and supplied most of the restoration parts for it + he has provided me with Brembo and CEV parts for years now, he is a prince! I plan on visiting him this spring.
Cheers
Jim Carey
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Interesting 860GT: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-ducati-mike-hailwood-recreation-based-on-a-ducati-860-gt/
(https://cdn.bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/1975_ducati_mike_hailwood_recreation_based_on_a_ducati_860_gt_155498553095d565ef66e7d290439B5-9BF3-4C67-A1DC-C1DD4FB12039-620x465.jpeg)
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Interesting 860GT: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-ducati-mike-hailwood-recreation-based-on-a-ducati-860-gt/
(https://cdn.bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/1975_ducati_mike_hailwood_recreation_based_on_a_ducati_860_gt_155498553095d565ef66e7d290439B5-9BF3-4C67-A1DC-C1DD4FB12039-620x465.jpeg)
Looks like he put a fair amount of money into it. Sadly its very hard to sell a custom or tribute for anything close to what has been invested.
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Vincent , powerfull tractor with plenty torque.
Goose , fast locomotive.
Duke , wild bronco.
Next can of worms : what oil for bevel Duke ? :popcorn:
I'll bite.
Isn't that the single weight GP50?
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I'll bite.
Isn't that the single weight GP50?
Muzz, please dont start! I'm sure Tetarabra knew this would start an avalanche! The 100k Mile 750 GT in Auckland ran on 20W50 high detergent diesel engine oil. Most of us Vincent owners run our roller bigends on modern multigrades same as our plain bearing Guzzii. The 50 weight myth is for Harley types, they own it! :violent1: PRT
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Straight versus multigrade oil is also a can of worms on the Vincent side. :evil:
Interesting point is to see when Ducati switched from straight to multigrade oil.
To be continued ...
By the way Pushrodtwin, you bit :boozing:
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Straight versus multigrade oil is also a can of worms on the Vincent side. :evil:
Interesting point is to see when Ducati switched from straight to multigrade oil.
To be continued ...
By the way Pushrodtwin, you bit :boozing:
True, & True again. :laugh: Must have a word with Mr Muzz about gullibility at the Guzzi rally in October, when I am there on my Vincent. :wink:
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True, & True again. :laugh: Must have a word with Mr Muzz about gullibility at the Guzzi rally in October, when I am there on my Vincent. :wink:
Look forward to it. :thumb: Incidentally, I knew precisely what I was doing. :evil: :grin:
Bye the bye, my bro also has a Vincent, but the 500 Comet. Hasn't gone for some years now after he blew the big end. He has since found out the bike had been hit early in it's life and required a new side cover. Unfortunately, the seal on the oil spigot was left off :evil: and by the time he found out about it it was too late. :cry: He is currently putting the finishing touches on his '30 DeSoto, and then I think it will be the Vin that starts getting his attention.
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The 75 860 Ducati arrived this afternoon, no big surprises or disappointments, it's pretty much as advertised, some things worse than expected and some better.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pp9cc0Z3/IMG-3192.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Pp9cc0Z3)
It has been repainted, looks good from ten feet away, all the sheet metal will get stripped down to bare steel
(https://i.postimg.cc/yW329Y4w/IMG-3193.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yW329Y4w)
It has the Aprilia signal lights, same as on the 750S / S3, standard CEV tail light. That whale tail seat is somethin else
Has the stock Brembo dual bleeder caliper and steel rotor, both are tired and need attention. I think period Guzzi's were built to a higher spec, the Duc has steel wheels and painted spokes compared to the Guzzi Borrani rims and stainless spokes
The master cylinder is not stock
The idiot light bezel is not correct for this model and the gauge housing is missing
(https://i.postimg.cc/gnDndYrL/IMG-3367.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gnDndYrL)
Conti mufflers and Marzzochi shocks are stock
Engine looks reasonably clean, air boxes are missing, pod filters fitted
Seat pan looks ok, under the tool tray the electrical is mostly stock
The business end
(https://i.postimg.cc/62gpj3HF/IMG-3279.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/62gpj3HF)
Should be an interesting project, other bikes are ahead on the list needing attention so this gets moved into a corner. Lots of research to come.
My initial thoughts on the Ducati, I would take a nice V7 Sport or Le Mans over a bevel.
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Interesting on the Initial thoughts... I can see that though, maybe once you fire that thing up it will trigger a different type of love. I'm after a 77/78 Darmah, but when I look at them in detail (online, never seen one in person), I also conclude that the Guzzi seems to be a better machine overall.... then I hear a Darmah with Contis on YouTube, and then I change my mind again. It's a real emotional rollercoaster :grin:
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Ducati and Guzzi, arguably, stand apart from all other bikes...And neither one is a substitute for the other....All Ducatis, especially bevel drives are dominated by the engine's mechanical presence...A non riding engineer friend said years ago my 750 bevel drive sounded like an engine inside of an engine..
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My initial thoughts on the Ducati, I would take a nice V7 Sport or Le Mans over a bevel.
Interestingly I sold the blue GTS (pictured earlier in this thread) in p/x for a V7 Sport. Chalk and cheese of course! The V7 Sport is rugged, reliable, better quality etc - I love it. However, the 900GTS just has such a glorious engine. Zero vibration and pulls hard from any revs. You'll love it! I definitely recommend junking all the electrical system, particularly the ignition. I fitted a Sachse system and I'm sure that why the bike ran so flexibly and cleanly at all revs. I had a brand new one in 1978 and it never ran smoothy until 2,800 rpm.
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My initial thoughts on the Ducati, I would take a nice V7 Sport or Le Mans over a bevel.
guzzi's are better built and easier to live with , but if that was the most important, we would all be riding honda's
they both have their charm , but owning both , the guzzi's get 99% of the riding time. .....and i am still not prepared to sell the bevel
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The 860GT is more directly comparable to a Guzzi T-3. The direct competitor to the V7 Sport or LeMans was the 750SS or 900SS desmo. The SSs were built primarily to ride fast and do it well, in addition to the collector attributes.
The ignition and starter design issues of early Ducati v-twins were fixed in 1977 with the the left side shifting engine that has Bosch ignition.
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Canuck , is your headlight an Aprilia Jod Duplo or a Cev ? :wink:
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Canuck,
That is a pretty good looking example you've got, all things considered. If you go through it very carefully it will run well but they are "when" engines, not "if". Ducati made too many compromises to meet the price required at the time and they were still expensive. Last one I found had piston skirt in the transmission gear teeth. Had to let that one go, sadly.
They are fascinating engines and I'm sure you will enjoy tearing it down and rebuilding it. You are going to rebuild it, right?
Hunter
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Canuck , is your headlight an Aprilia Jod Duplo or a Cev ? :wink:
I will check, I think it s a CEV
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Canuck,
That is a pretty good looking example you've got, all things considered. If you go through it very carefully it will run well but they are "when" engines, not "if". Ducati made too many compromises to meet the price required at the time and they were still expensive. Last one I found had piston skirt in the transmission gear teeth. Had to let that one go, sadly.
They are fascinating engines and I'm sure you will enjoy tearing it down and rebuilding it. You are going to rebuild it, right?
Hunter
Its going to get stripped down and rebuilt, I will probably send the motor out to a specialist for evaluation and machine work, Setting up a bevel drive is way beyond my capability!
I put in my first order and bought new rubber parts from Bevel Rubber plus a new repro gauge cluster and I bought a decent front fender that has original orange metallic paint with a cream / silver colour stripe for my painter to match, that is the colour scheme I am going to replicate.
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Its going to get stripped down and rebuilt, I will probably send the motor out to a specialist for evaluation and machine work, Setting up a bevel drive is way beyond my capability!
That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability. My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running. The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason.
If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience. The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference. Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can. There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine. I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned. I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment. It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.
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Tusayan, yes, the constant BS about the difficulty of working on Ducati's from people who never worked on one or have limited experience. This even exists for Ducati owners...However, it does require some mechanical understanding , decent tools and hand skills..
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I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one.
i'm doing something wrong , i own of three ducati's ( one bevel 900SS) and three ducati engined cagiva's. i love these bikes for what they are, pretty impractical italian peices of engineering
have been riding them for over 100.000 km, working on them for nearly 20 years,
IMHO working on them is a pain in the ass...
inventing the desmo head was a brilliant marketing move, but a absolutely stupid engineering solution.
all that extra engineering , extra parts , extra maintenance, just to find out the rest of the world get the same power output with......a set of 10 dollar valve springs.
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That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability. My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running. The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason.
If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience. The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference. Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can. There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine. I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned. I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment. It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.
That is really great to hear. thank you! I am going to try and fire it up 1st, previous owner claimed it is a runner. My Ducati friend is coming over this afternoon for a look. I have never owned a Ducati or worked on one so this is once again a whole new experience. Other than the rumours of how difficult the engines are to work on the rest of the bike is straight forward Italian 70's parts.
I do like the cam adjuster on the swing arm pivot for tensioning the chain, not sure how practical it was in use?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTh8SG24/IMG-3618.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability. My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running. The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason.
If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience. The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference. Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can. There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine. I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned. I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment. It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.
My friend's 860GTE engine has been completely disassembled, shims not kept on shafts, bevel shims loose in baggie, gaskets all thrown away. The crank has already been rebuilt by a company in the UK whose name escape me at the moment (just remembered: Alpha Bearings!). As much as I'm up for a challenge, I'm not sure that I want to tackle reassembling the engine. I really wish my friend would just take it to a specialist, but he seems to have motorcycle ADD and some new project always gets any $$ he's set aside for the Ducati.
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Charlie, what you'd end up doing with that engine is assembling the crank and gearbox shafts sequentially in one half of the cases, then installing the other case half and measuring clearance to select shims. It's time consuming but not hugely difficult, and of course you need the appropriate shims. As I recall, you simply measure the clearance between the case halves with no gasket and do the arithmetic.
One interesting thing with the crankshaft end float is that the cases expand when the engine is hot, opening up the clearance between the angular contact main bearings. If the clearance is too much the crankshaft becomes loose radially as well as axially, so there are varying theories about how to shim the crankshaft end float (cold). One theory to put a slight pinch on the assembly, another to shim to zero clearance.
I think it's important to understand that there was and is a lot of hype with these engines. They're a bit fiddly but not special racing (e.g. Manx Norton) engines, they were assembled in serial production. The timing case setup on the round case engines was the biggest issue, but the square case set up is significantly improved - which helps.
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What Tusayan says ^^^ it's how I build my vintage race Triumphs...Several mock ups to determine any shimming of the crank.I also do this on my street bikes..I'm a hobbyist builder not a pro...I believe Ducatis have a slight preload on the crank mains to allow for heat expansion.....I do this with basic tools ....In fact a belt cam drive Ducati has something in common with old Triumphs, vertical split crankcases, the crank rides on roller bearings and pressure fed plain bearing connecting rods and crankshaft end oiling...
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I do like the cam adjuster on the swing arm pivot for tensioning the chain, not sure how practical it was in use?
It works OK. This feature was introduced with the 860GT frame and carried on to some later bikes including the Darmah. The very last Darmahs had both the eccentric adjuster and the conventional axle adjuster setup, but I think this was because Ducati was using up old stock parts to build the bikes. In the 1983 time frame Ducati bike production was nearly shut down, they were mainly building Diesel engines for VM.
The more traditonal bevel Ducati chain adjuster setup with axle plates turned from hexagonal bar stock was BTW designed by Seeley, included in race bike frames done by Seeley under Ducati contract, and then adopted for production.
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That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability. My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running. The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason.
If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience. The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference. Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can. There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine. I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned. I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment. It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.
Canuck, This is good advice! And I second the motion that it is well within your capability to deal with the engine. I did it many times and it only took a few years of therapy to more or less recover.
I do like the cam adjuster on the swing arm pivot for tensioning the chain, not sure how practical it was in use?
It does make it downright easy to adjust the chain with the added bonus that the wheels stay in alignment. Or out of alignment, depends on what day of the week the frame was made! :evil:
This adjuster lived on for many years, my 750 Paso used an eccentric but those were in the wheel axle instead of the swing arm pivot.
You should just dive right into Duc ownership. Like the Guzzi, the Ducati will make you grin like an idiot the whole time you ride it! I'm not the only one that does that, right?
:bike-037:
Hunter
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My friend Nick came over to look over the 860. he has two 860GTE and a 900GTS, he gave it the thumbs up, apparently the Conti's are not stock, the idiot light bezel is off a Honda and both L and R switch gear are Japanese as is the master cylinder, other than the missing air boxes the rest is stock. Instruments are stock but obviously missing the plastic bezel. Mileage is under 12,000 km, maybe stock judging by the shape of the bike. I need to change the oil , fit some new plugs and try see if it starts, Kicking the starter takes some effort and according to Nick the 'feel' is good. I see why Ducati folks love the motor, the more I look at the L Twin the more it grows on me. Nick concurs with the general consensus being there is a lot of myth behind what is essentially a fairly basic powertrain. The more I look it over the happier I am with the purchase. Other projects await, I need to get the Morini 500 up and running and the Benelli 650 needs to be fired up as well.
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apparently the Conti's are not stock,
No, but you *will* like them.. :smiley: :thumb: There may be a better sounding motorcycle than a bevel Duck with Contis, but I haven't heard it.
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No, but you *will* like them.. :smiley: :thumb: There may be a better sounding motorcycle than a bevel Duck with Contis, but I haven't heard it.
Belt cam drive two valve Ducatis sound the same with similar mufflers..And with the X pipe they sound even more intense as RPM's rise, at least in my opinion..
As an observation, I sold my 750 Ducati V twin around 1990 ,yes Contis...Shortly after I bought a well used Lemans 1.. I bought new down pipes and BuB Conti mufflers...The sound at higher RPM's was mesmerizing ..And I remember the Guzzi seemed to be a bit smoother at upper end of the RPM range...Both the 750 bevel drives I owned picked up vibration above 6000 rpm, not objectionable, but noticeable..My 96 900 Monster feels the same...
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My friend Nick came over to look over the 860. he has two 860GTE and a 900GTS, he gave it the thumbs up, apparently the Conti's are not stock, the idiot light bezel is off a Honda and both L and R switch gear are Japanese as is the master cylinder, other than the missing air boxes the rest is stock. Instruments are stock but obviously missing the plastic bezel. Mileage is under 12,000 km, maybe stock judging by the shape of the bike. I need to change the oil , fit some new plugs and try see if it starts, Kicking the starter takes some effort and according to Nick the 'feel' is good.
The mods described are all typical. The original GT switchgear was relatively poor and the original master cylinder was IIRC (like many bikes of the era) the wrong size for a single disk. These issues were soon after addressed by Ducati on the Darmah, although the poor airbox situation did not get resolved until later so it was very common practice to fit individual filters on all the bikes.
Contis were very often fitted to any of the bikes that came with LaFranconis or Silentiums. SSs in the late 70s came with quiet mufflers on the bikes for regulatory compliance and a set of Contis in the crate for owner installation (also larger carbs).
Ignition reliability is an issue per-1977, but there are aftermarket solutions out there now if needed (I'm thinking about why the bike may have been taken off the road)
If you start the engine bear in mind that it does not have a full flow oil filter, so anything being scraped off the cylinder bores can make its way through the engine. After you run it, I'd do an oil change or two at short intervals. Ideally you might have a look at the bores before running it - the cylinder sleeves are uncoated steel, Ducati did not go to Nikasil on the bevel engines until the '84 Mille, by which point the engine also had one piece crankshaft, plain bearing rods and a full flow oil filter.
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If you start the engine bear in mind that it does not have a full flow oil filter, so anything being scraped off the cylinder bores can make its way through the engine. After you run it, I'd do an oil change or two at short intervals. Ideally you might have a look at the bores before running it - the cylinder sleeves are uncoated steel, Ducati did not go to Nikasil on the bevel engines until the '84 Mille, by which point the engine also had one piece crankshaft, plain bearing rods and a full flow oil filter.
Good advice the previous owner did not say when it was last on the road, but I am thinking its been off the road for at least a couple years if not more. I bought a bore scope a year ago and this could be a good use for it.
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I don't suppose the previous owner said whether he had put any form of protectant in the cylinders Jim?
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I don't suppose the previous owner said whether he had put any form of protectant in the cylinders Jim?
No mention, I don't think he took any extra care with it but it was stored inside in a climate controlled building and the previous owner had owned quite a few rare Italian bikes and has a love for them so I am hoping it was treated well. I am hoping to get some time this weekend to fire it up.
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That looks imminently restorable, and with those low miles you might get lucky with the engine. It is also too ugly to put a Vincent motor into, wait until the 750 GT arrives, then you will have another engine to section. :laugh: :laugh:
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It is also too ugly to put a Vincent motor into, wait until the 750 GT arrives, then you will have another engine to section. :laugh: :laugh:
The Bevel Heads would have me killed!!
I pulled the side covers to find the bike was originally painted the copper / orange, bonus!! This is the colour I am going to paint it.
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That's a good color, good score being already that color orginally. You can be guilt-free on the restoration paint job!
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My dad bought this bike so we'd have something to work on when he came and visited. He's stopped riding so it's for sale. I need to get the carbs set right but otherwise it's a hoot. There are a bunch of original parts in a box (including the seat loop that was cut off). I've only ridden it a couple times but it's memorable. The only people who don't like these bikes have never ridden one.
(https://i.imgur.com/nB0Xguh.jpg)
How it came.
(https://i.imgur.com/cAuZbgd.jpg)
Dual Brembos
(https://i.imgur.com/z7nYdh0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/X9xAMBV.jpg)
Some people theorize the bottom ends didn't survive due to the stock ignitions, especially the horrible advance curves that looked like a staircase. The Sachse solves that. https://www.elektronik-sachse.de Or at least they did. Website isn't working.
(https://i.imgur.com/10bf9gS.jpg)
Waiting for me to tune the carbs.
Also the high costs are due to the sharing of parts with the 900SS (which is a significant number of parts). People aren't putting 860GT prices on the parts, they are putting the 900SS prices on them. With the 860GT at sub-US$10k and the 900SS at US$30k plus. It's like buying Comet parts that are at Rapide prices.
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Nice bike above... :thumb:
When "they" say bevel drive Ducati twins have lower end problems... do the mean like worn big end ? Or just a lot of noise? Or of you ignore the noise and a rod causes unscheduled disassembly ?
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Canuck , is your headlight an Aprilia Jod Duplo or a Cev ? :wink:
Jod Duplo
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When I get a bike like this tired 860 GT I like to go through it from end to end to catalogue what it will need. I knocked out the wheel bearings and put the wheel wheel in my Vapor Honing Technologies 'Weekend Warrior' blast cabinet. After knocking the corrosion off the steel rims, steel pokes and alloy hubs they look fine, just need replating.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKMx1pKr/IMG-3259.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
before cleaning
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSQkZRPJ/IMG-3089.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZMWfGSN)
and after, coated with ACF 50 to stop corrosion until I get around to restoring this bike and a shot of paint on the rotor centre
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBy6pNBV/IMG-3275.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Getting a Vapor blast cabinet was probably the best tool I have ever bought.
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Jod Duplo
Well if you're not a stickler for originality take out the Jod Duplo, put in a Wipac Quadoptic (£25 in UK) and sell the Jod Duplo to a rivet counting bevel restorer. That'll put $1000 or more in your pocket!
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Well if you're not a stickler for originality take out the Jod Duplo, put in a Wipac Quadoptic (£25 in UK) and sell the Jod Duplo to a rivet counting bevel restorer. That'll put $1000 or more in your pocket!
$1K for a headlight! bloody ridiculous :sad:
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Well if you're not a stickler for originality take out the Jod Duplo, put in a Wipac Quadoptic (£25 in UK) and sell the Jod Duplo to a rivet counting bevel restorer. That'll put $1000 or more in your pocket!
Unfortunately he is a stickler for originality, have you never seen one of his build threads? :tongue:
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I bought a tragedy of a 900GTS in 2013 and rebuilt it completely as below. The GT belongs to a friend of mine and we were on a tour of Scotland.
The 864 Bevel engine in any form really is a wonderful creation. Plenty of power from any revs, completely smooth and sounds glorious.
The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering. Mdina Italia in UK is a good source of spares, and I found Ian Gowanloch in Australia to be a goldmine of rare parts.
I did blog the rebuild here, but since the demise of photobucket most of the photos have been deleted.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?19560-Another-900-GTS-story.-The-Black-Pig
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46743055935_5470b2947d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v)DSC_1847 (https://flic.kr/p/2edwo2v) by Derek0812 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79848745@N02/), on Flickr
Inveraray??
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Inveraray??
Yes, Inverary Jock. We had a great ride down to Campbeltown in perfect weather.
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Any idea what 'normal' compression should be? I kicked it over dry and got around 150 psi per cylinder, good, bad, in between?
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Any idea what 'normal' compression should be? I kicked it over dry and got around 150 psi per cylinder, good, bad, in between?
Sounds good to me. Start it up!
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Sounds good to me. Start it up!
Yep, just going to drain the crankcase and fill with fresh oil, install a battery and give it a kick.
Hopefully Saturday morning I can let the neighbours share in the sound of a Ducati :evil:
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Jod Duplo
Good point as these headlights are ridiculously expensive ( also fitted on 750 sport and supersport ) :thumb:
By the way , don't break it :rolleyes:
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Hey, I'm going to stop taking the pi** for a minute and offer something constructive. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen Ducati gear shafts brinelled & pitted from the rollers plucking bits out. I have long contemplated the possibility of replacing the rollers with hard bronze floating bushes. It's a fix we used in car gearboxes where the first motion shaft turned on the main shaft. I did to my '39 Chev & several of Mr Issogonis' Morris/Austin Mini Minor & 1100 motors.
We turned a bit of aluminium bronze with 1/2 a thou clearance inside & outside with a long helix oil groove inside & outside. If you did that before the shafts get pitted and use multigrade oil you might save its life. :grin:
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Yep, just going to drain the crankcase and fill with fresh oil, install a battery and give it a kick.
Hopefully Saturday morning I can let the neighbours share in the sound of a Ducati :evil:
Well? :-)
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Well? :-)
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Don't keep us in suspenders!
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I got in a couple hours over the weekend to prep the Ducati before I try and start it, bought a new Odyssey battery and drained the sludge out of the crankcase, almost molasses, this bike has sat for longer than two years in my opinion! Ran some oil through, kicked it over with no fuel and drained and refilled the sump. I pulled the chain, the underside of the chain guard was about 1/8" thick crud so I pulled the engine sprocket cover off and it was clogged with slime and grit. Cleaned that all out and reinstalled a cleaned chain.
The left hand gear change linkage is a real mash up, cleaned up the sprokect and shift mechanism
So I go to think if the sump was full of gooey oil what's the inside of the crabs like??
Well not much better than the sump, old stale congealed gas, plugged jets etc.. Stripped and cleaned the carbs, need to fit a gasket / seal set in the carbs. I decided I may as well pull the rocker covers off and check the valve lash, will finish that tomorrow and hopefully get through the carbs mid week.
I gave the motor a going over with soda blast out in the lane, used up about a gallon's worth to clean the crud of the engine, not as nice as vapour blasting but it's good for now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rRp5WgnM/IMG-3815.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rRp5WgnM)
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Hey, I'm going to stop taking the pi** for a minute and offer something constructive. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen Ducati gear shafts brinelled & pitted from the rollers plucking bits out. I have long contemplated the possibility of replacing the rollers with hard bronze floating bushes. It's a fix we used in car gearboxes where the first motion shaft turned on the main shaft. I did to my '39 Chev & several of Mr Issogonis' Morris/Austin Mini Minor & 1100 motors.
We turned a bit of aluminium bronze with 1/2 a thou clearance inside & outside with a long helix oil groove inside & outside. If you did that before the shafts get pitted and use multigrade oil you might save its life. :grin:
I'm not sure what you mean by "first motion shaft" but Chevy used the same basic three speed transmission from the late 1930's until 1964..In 1955 the counter shaft (layshaft) bearings were changed from bushings to needle rollers...Triumph motorcycle did the same on their gear boxes as power increased.
I don't know if the slight running clearance of a bushing will have an effect on the bevel drive..
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I'm not sure what you mean by "first motion shaft" but Chevy used the same basic three speed transmission from the late 1930's until 1964..In 1955 the counter shaft (layshaft) bearings were changed from bushings to needle rollers...Triumph motorcycle did the same on their gear boxes as power increased.
I don't know if the slight running clearance of a bushing will have an effect on the bevel drive..
First motion shaft = British terminology for the first shaft into the box, the one with the clutch splines driving it. :grin:
I think you will work out when you go into the engine, that the gear shafts I am referring to in the Ducati, have no connection to he bevel drive off the crank. They are the gear box shafts which have the gears rotating on them. :grin:
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First motion shaft = British terminology for the first shaft into the box, the one with the clutch splines driving it. :grin:
I think you will work out when you go into the engine, that the gear shafts I am referring to in the Ducati, have no connection to he bevel drive off the crank. They are the gear box shafts which have the gears rotating on them. :grin:
I assume you are talking about the spur gear shafts?
After cleaning up the underside of the sump I found the lead sealed wire is still intact
I am missing one carburetor accelerator pump jet holder and jet, on order, another delay to firing it up, how does stuff like this go missing off old bikes??
So I keep cleaning and checking, and building an inventory of what's to be replaced. Exhaust cleaned up pretty good, will get the headers and cross over re-plated, looking for stock LaFranconi mufflers.
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Is the header SS?
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It's surprising how many times I see, on nicely prepared bikes, safety wiring done so as to pull the wired bolt in the direction of UNfastening ... ? Or is this not as much of an issue as I think? I know that at one time, race scrutineers wouldn't pass such an installation ...
Lannis
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Is the header SS?
I don't think so, it had a fair amount of surface rust and the cross over was rusted tight to one of the headers, oxy/acet heat to break it free.
Will a magnet stick to stainless steel? With all the rust on the joints I just assumed they were not stainless but maybe they are??
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It's surprising how many times I see, on nicely prepared bikes, safety wiring done so as to pull the wired bolt in the direction of UNfastening ... ? Or is this not as much of an issue as I think? I know that at one time, race scrutineers wouldn't pass such an installation ...
Lannis
This^^^. I learned lock wiring on airplane gun systems. That wouldn't have passed my sergeant's inspection, either. I think the intent for the wiring in that spot is the seal, not so much to keep the screws from backing out...
Larry
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Will a magnet stick to stainless steel?
Very broadly speaking 300 series is not magnetic but 400 series is. It all depends on the specific manufacturer's recipe for that application. How much ferrite, chromium, etc.
Paul B :boozing:
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Yes, the lead seal is an old world warranty protection kind of thing... Nowadays nobody would assume that a new bike buyer might split the cases and break something during a one year warranty period, but with Ducatis, racing, etc in the 1970s and before the mindset was different.
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Yes, the lead seal is an old world warranty protection kind of thing... Nowadays nobody would assume that a new bike buyer might split the cases and break something during a one year warranty period, but with Ducatis, racing, etc in the 1970s and before the mindset was different.
So it's not really safety wire but warranty wire. Doesn't matter which way it's twisted. Nor would you safety wire those bolts anyways.
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They used to do the same thing in Italy with the "good" Salami back in the day. I think they still do. The little lead seals are called "Piombino" (Little leads).
http://bbcc.ibc.regione.emilia-romagna.it/pater/loadcard.do?id_card=80809 (http://bbcc.ibc.regione.emilia-romagna.it/pater/loadcard.do?id_card=80809)
(https://i.ibb.co/pQPPMhW/Salami-Piombino.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pQPPMhW)
Would you be able to get a macro shot of what the printing is on the lead seal on the Ducati? Curious... :azn:
Edit: Looks like nothing once enlarging the photos.
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Is the header SS?
I think you where right on the Stainless Steel observation, a magnet sticks to the Ducati headers but it also sticks to the stainless steel headers on my Eldorado. I got out a tube of metal polish and they shined up pretty quick with a lot of black residue on the polishing rag so I assume they are stainless.
The electrical is a rats nest, original CEV switches are long gone, Nippon Denso on the left (same as Suzuki GT750, Laverda) and a Honda throttle / switch on the right. Original wires cut off and poorly wrapped up under the centre frame rail.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PLcCc2J6/IMG-3360.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PLcCc2J6)
I removed the left switch, cut back all the electrical except the ignition circuit, lots of clean up needed inside the headlight bucket, whenever I see the crappy blue end crimp connectors I just cringe! Will rebuild all the electrical harness components, eventually.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5XsY5xVW/IMG-3350.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5XsY5xVW)
Bevel Rubber sent new foot peg rubbers, couldn't resist giving the foot rests a shot of paint and popping the new rubber on
And Bevel Rubber also sent a new reproduction dash
Reflector holders cleaned up with just a dusting of vapour blast, light oxidation just left them dull and discolored
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I don't think so, it had a fair amount of surface rust and the cross over was rusted tight to one of the headers, oxy/acet heat to break it free.
(https://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_3230_zpskujlzi9p.jpg) (https://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_3230_zpskujlzi9p.jpg.html)
Will a magnet stick to stainless steel? With all the rust on the joints I just assumed they were not stainless but maybe they are??
Those clamps Jim can come in three types, full stainless, stainless band with steel bolt and "nut", or just the whole lot done in zinc chromate plated steel.
When I first bought the Breva new it had the full stainless type, most expensive but if you want it to pull up tight you MUST put the nickel antiseize on it. Luigi didn't and the crossover used to leak. I replaced them with the type you have, but it is vital to smother the threads with something like Res-Q-Steel. You can exert far higher clamping forces with this type. The only time I will use the full stainless is in marine applications.
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Those clamps Jim can come in three types, full stainless, stainless band with steel bolt and "nut", or just the whole lot done in zinc chromate plated steel.
When I first bought the Breva new it had the full stainless type, most expensive but if you want it to pull up tight you MUST put the nickel antiseize on it. Luigi didn't and the crossover used to leak. I replaced them with the type you have, but it is vital to smother the threads with something like Res-Q-Steel. You can exert far higher clamping forces with this type. The only time I will use the full stainless is in marine applications.
Thanks Muzz, good advice.
Groover: no markings on the lead blob sealing the crankcase wires.
Cheers
Jim
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the whole bike is in a pretty amazing condition,
these engines were known to eat their bigends for lunch , to find one with the factory seal still on the engine block is absolutely amazing.
nice find...
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Once I opened the headlight shell and gasped in horror I ripped all the wiring out and started from scratch.
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My friend Harold came over today tp help me attempt to fire up the Ducati. I robbed a pump jet out of the Laverda, hooked up a battery, flushed out the gas tank and cleaned the petcocks. I wish I could say it started on the first kick but it didn't, after many kicks, a couple kick backs and one bruised shin when my right foot slid off the Kickstarter and banged into the foot peg (awkward kick starter design) it caught and fired up.
This thing is LOUD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO7f7VKtc5I&feature=youtu.be
Kill switch doesn't work, need to rig something up temporarily until I get the original CEV switches and control perches *found used ones on Ebay)
Petcocks leaked fuel, fuel lines leaked, oil filter housing leaked, the usual first start adventures, replaced the fuel line, fuel line clamps, res set the oil filter seal, petcocks don't leak but they don't fully shut off either.
Rebuilt the leaking Brembo caliper, installed new brake hoses (spare rubber hoses I had made for a LeMans fit) installed a Brembo master cylinder
and gutted out most of the electrical.
Cleaned and repacked the steering bearings
Pulled the choke splitter apart, it was jambed solid with crud
Idle is still high, after the second start the front cylinder had died, traced to a loosed high tension lead.
I am removing and cleaning, checking, fixing just about everything that cane be unbolted, my plan is to go through all the systems and get everything working as it should. Buchannan's is making me a set of new stainless steel spokes and I will get the rims replated. I found a pair of used air boxes on Ebay and Bevel Heaven had the rubber boots in stock. Next to tackle the electrical.
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:thumb:
Awesome!
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So I keep cleaning and checking, and building an inventory of what's to be replaced. Exhaust cleaned up pretty good, will get the headers and cross over re-plated, looking for stock LaFranconi mufflers.
A Ducati without loud mufflers is a crime... :laugh: Besides all you'll hear is the engine mechanical clatter... :wink:
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A Ducati without loud mufflers is a crime... :laugh: Besides all you'll hear is the engine mechanical clatter... :wink:
Well I can finally say I have heard a Bevel with Conti's barking.
I thought my Laverda 750 SF1 was a loud bike but the Ducati in on another level!
I guess that is part of the appeal of these old nails, the raw sound of the engine thumping through the pipes, maybe I could ride it along with a HD gang. :evil:
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Glad you got it running! Contis are loud but how loud depends a lot on the engines cam timing. Also and FWIW I've found them more invasive on a bike with upright seating (my ex-Darmah) than on my SS. I installed a set of LaFranconis on the Darmah and liked it better that way, even though it felt a little plain vanilla with such a quiet exhaust and something in between would have been ideal.
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Kill switch doesn't work, need to rig something up temporarily until I get the original CEV switches and control perches *found used ones on Ebay)
If you look at the electrical diagram you can see the kill switch design is a careful mixture of confusion and crying. It's actually the most obtuse part of the wiring harness which is saying a lot.
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Saw these at a swapmeet yesterday and forwarded the info. to Jim:
(https://i.ibb.co/Smm6PX4/Classic-Motorcycle-Day-2019-019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Smm6PX4)
(https://i.ibb.co/7jXPgQ8/Classic-Motorcycle-Day-2019-020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7jXPgQ8)
(https://i.ibb.co/X5y8yK8/Classic-Motorcycle-Day-2019-021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5y8yK8)
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Now, there's some treasure that has been buried for a long time. :grin:
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Sorry, you can never un-see this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0nhC7zf/744-n.jpg)
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WHY !!!!!!
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Saw these at a swapmeet yesterday and forwarded the info. to Jim:
(https://i.ibb.co/Smm6PX4/Classic-Motorcycle-Day-2019-019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Smm6PX4)
(https://i.ibb.co/7jXPgQ8/Classic-Motorcycle-Day-2019-020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7jXPgQ8)
(https://i.ibb.co/X5y8yK8/Classic-Motorcycle-Day-2019-021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5y8yK8)
Thanks Charlie, contact made, sale going through!
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Thanks Charlie, contact made, sale going through!
:thumb:
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Now, there's some treasure that has been buried for a long time. :grin:
Some bevel 900SS’s came with LaFranconis and 32-mm carbs on the bike plus Contis and 40-mm carbs in the crate... mostly the LaFranconis were removed and replaced during initial dealer setup, so they’re out there.
FWIW mufflers for 750s and 860/900s are different.
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Some bevel 900SS’s came with LaFranconis and 32-mm carbs on the bike plus Contis and 40-mm carbs in the crate... mostly the LaFranconis were removed and replaced during initial dealer setup, so they’re out there.
FWIW mufflers for 750s and 860/900s are different.
I wonder how many didn't end up in the dumpster?
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It hadn't occurred to me that somebody might have thrown away a new set of mufflers... Ducati people back then were at least as obsessive about spare parts as today :grin: so I'm guessing most of them were kept. The previous and first owner of my SS bought two of those bikes new, in '78 and '80. I bought only the newer bike, the first had been sold on consignment at a dealer a couple of years before, minus spare parts. I ended up with both sets of 32-mm Dellortos and LaFranconis. I used one set on my Darmah, I kept another set to stay with the SS.
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When I bought my Darmah, it left the dealers with Contis. He probably threw away the originals.. ala Harley dealers. <shrug>
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I am trying to sort out the instrument mounts and the two part plastic dash. The instruments on the bike are Smiths and they came sitting in two steel brackets that are attached to the underside of the top triple clamp. Each gauge has its own steel bracket that is a ring with a tab, each a mirror of the other. As to the plastic dash bezel, the gauges drop in from the outside and the gauges have a rubber band that sits between the gauge and dash. I am assuming the steel bracket sits in-between the top and bottom pieces of the plastic dash, and the gauge, when fastened to the steel bracket with the two 4mm nuts the top half is held in place then the bottom of the dash screws together to the top half.
The problem I am having is that the steel gauge brackets with the gauge rings does not seem to align with the shape of the inside of the dash. I may have gauge mounts for another model of Ducati, perhaps a newer model that also used Smith gauges or I just have not figured out how this dash / gauge set mounts???
Without the plastic dash the gauges mounted to the triple looks like this
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8xjpjds/IMG-3077.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn8VzgkD)
The reproduction 860 GT dash, the bike came with a Honda idiot light bezel attached my a home made steel bracket screwed to the stock gauge mounts.
Maybe the previous owner(s) relocated the instrument brackets and I am chasing the wrong plot?
If anyone can post pictures of a stock 860 GT dash from below and on top that would sure help!
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You've probably already seen this shot of the clocks, Maybe Charlie can shed some light on the mounts. I think it's one of his pictures.
(https://i.ibb.co/SXL6CP4/Joseph-s-Ducati-860-GTS-016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXL6CP4)
Paul B :boozing:
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Looks like you have the wrong gauge support set-up for that type housing.
https://www.ducaticlassics.com/parts/860-gte-and-gts/all/dashboard-1975
Note on diagram: item #20 is affixed to the gauge itself and uses the rubber band #19 to attach to the corresponding mounts #'s 17 & 18. Only 1 item #20 is shown in the diagram, it uses 2 - one on each gauge. This is almost exactly the same setup as on my 750 GT. These parts are really hard to find. I had to buy a whole fire damaged gauge with a #20 affixed to get on that was missing for my 750 GT restoration. Lucky for me, the other gauge mount pieces were there in the pile. If you are trying to scare up all of these mount pieces, you might shout out to the people on the Bevel Heads FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4763588519/
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vdn2N7SN/speedo-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vdn2N7SN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9x7VHLB/speedo-6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9x7VHLB)
Also, this is my go-to outfit for Smiths gauge repair or cables. excellent work and very reasonable prices he was able to fix the gauge above BTW):
http://vintagebritishcables.com/Smiths-Motorcycle-Speedo-Tach-Repair-Restore.php
(https://www.ducaticlassics.com/assets/images/l_03347793122f8c27a97df707dc9625d9131bfd84.jpg)
.
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You've probably already seen this shot of the clocks, Maybe Charlie can shed some light on the mounts. I think it's one of his pictures.
(https://i.ibb.co/SXL6CP4/Joseph-s-Ducati-860-GTS-016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXL6CP4)
Paul B :boozing:
Indeed it is. I'll see if I can get some more shots of the instrument cluster today.
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Looks like you have the wrong gauge support set-up for that type housing.
https://www.ducaticlassics.com/parts/860-gte-and-gts/all/dashboard-1975
Note on diagram: item #20 is affixed to the gauge itself and uses the rubber band #19 to attach to the corresponding mounts #'s 17 & 18. Only 1 item #20 is shown in the diagram, it uses 2 - one on each gauge. This is almost exactly the same setup as on my 750 GT. These parts are really hard to find. I had to buy a whole fire damaged gauge with a #20 affixed to get on that was missing for my 750 GT restoration. Lucky for me, the other gauge mount pieces were there in the pile. If you are trying to scare up all of these mount pieces, you might shout out to the people on the Bevel Heads FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4763588519/
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vdn2N7SN/speedo-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vdn2N7SN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9x7VHLB/speedo-6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9x7VHLB)
Also, this is my go-to outfit for Smiths gauge repair or cables. excellent work and very reasonable prices he was able to fix the gauge above BTW):
http://vintagebritishcables.com/Smiths-Motorcycle-Speedo-Tach-Repair-Restore.php
(https://www.ducaticlassics.com/assets/images/l_03347793122f8c27a97df707dc9625d9131bfd84.jpg)
Thanks so much George! I met the Smiths Instruments repair fellow at a couple swap meets in Alberta and BC but lost his contact, I will get in touch with him to go through the gauges, fit new bezels etc.
I thought the mounts where suspect, the bend angle of the tab is way too far off to work with the plastic profile. I could rework them . fab something but would sure like to try and find the stock bits. I will reach out to the Bevel Heads, I don;t have a Face Book account but perhaps its time I got into the 21st century (kicking and screaming).
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Indeed it is. I'll see if I can get some more shots of the instrument cluster today.
Thanks Charlie!
I am assuming the socket head fasteners in the parts diagram provided by George are installed from below and up into the underside of the upper triple clamp?
This is how the brackets where installed on the bike when I got it.
In a warped way it's figuring out these little mysteries that I find the most interesting.
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Went out and took some photos, hope they help.
Does attach to the underside of the upper triple clamp...
(https://i.ibb.co/FsXtvrB/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FsXtvrB)
...with two M8x25 socket head cap screws.
(https://i.ibb.co/p1kH83K/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p1kH83K)
Looks like my buddy needs a new upper half.
(https://i.ibb.co/312gQXc/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/312gQXc)
How the mounting brackets are situated.
(https://i.ibb.co/1Jws2hQ/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1Jws2hQ)
Earthworms? No, just disintegrated rubber rings that hold the lower and upper rings together.
(https://i.ibb.co/1mJxjDJ/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1mJxjDJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/JRnkPqX/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRnkPqX)
Backside of the tach...
(https://i.ibb.co/bXgdKCX/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bXgdKCX)
...and speedo.
(https://i.ibb.co/hd3jD1L/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hd3jD1L)
Side view of the lower bracket.
(https://i.ibb.co/J5c2M7M/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J5c2M7M)
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Went out and took some photos, hope they help.
Does attach to the underside of the upper triple clamp...
(https://i.ibb.co/FsXtvrB/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FsXtvrB)
...with two M8x25 socket head cap screws.
(https://i.ibb.co/p1kH83K/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p1kH83K)
Looks like my buddy needs a new upper half.
(https://i.ibb.co/312gQXc/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/312gQXc)
How the mounting brackets are situated.
(https://i.ibb.co/1Jws2hQ/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1Jws2hQ)
Earthworms? No, just disintegrated rubber rings that hold the lower and upper rings together.
(https://i.ibb.co/1mJxjDJ/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1mJxjDJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/JRnkPqX/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRnkPqX)
Backside of the tach...
(https://i.ibb.co/bXgdKCX/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bXgdKCX)
...and speedo.
(https://i.ibb.co/hd3jD1L/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hd3jD1L)
Side view of the lower bracket.
(https://i.ibb.co/J5c2M7M/Ducati-860-GT-instrument-cluster-009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J5c2M7M)
FANTASTIC!
This explains it, I will compare these to my setup. My mounts are definitely not the stock ones. The search begins.
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Wasn't the same instrument housing, etc. used on a Norton? That might broaden your search a bit.
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Wasn't the same instrument housing, etc. used on a Norton? That might broaden your search a bit.
I didn't know that, will take a look.
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I didn't know that, will take a look.
I'm not sure if that's the case or not, maybe someone who is into Brit Bikes will know for sure.
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I didn't know that, will take a look.
No, absolutely not.
Some of the Ducatis of that era used Smiths gauges and that would be the only similarity.
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Maybe you already heard about it, but don't forget to have a look into the crankshaft sludge trap .
Did you find a workshop manual for your Ducati ?
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Maybe you already heard about it, but don't forget to have a look into the crankshaft sludge trap .
Did you find a workshop manual for your Ducati ?
Yes the previous owner included an original Ducati service manual, owners manual and parts manual!!!
I am really hoping I don't need to split the cases, the bike started and ran quite well.
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Sorry, you can never un-see this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0nhC7zf/744-n.jpg)
Engine donor.
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I stripped the body work off and got the tin wear ready for the painter.
The bike has been repainted (poorly) with a very tough red paint, the tank side emblem recess has been filled in, usually a sign of hidden damage. Sure enough when I stripped the paint off the gas tank the front left side is caved in, doesn't even look like any attempt at pulling the dents was made, bondo was spooned on and dents filled, then the emblem recess filled. The tank was also the original orange and black stripes as are the side panels and fenders. The left front signal light stem has been braised. The damage to the left side probably explains the bent side stand and dented muffler and why the gauge mounts were changed out and the plastic dash missing. I can't see any other traces of damage but will have a close look at the frame when I strip it down. I like how a motorcycle leaves clues to its past and figuring them out is half the fun.
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I stripped the body work off and got the tin wear ready for the painter.
(https://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_3331_zpswk7uylny.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/1975%20Ducati%20860%20GT/IMG_3331_zpswk7uylny.jpg.html)
The bike has been repainted (poorly) with a very tough red paint, the tank side emblem recess has been filled in, usually a sign of hidden damage. Sure enough when I stripped the paint off the gas tank the front left side is caved in, doesn't even look like any attempt at pulling the dents was made, bondo was spooned on and dents filled, then the emblem recess filled. The tank was also the original orange and black stripes as are the side panels and fenders. The left front signal light stem has been braised. The damage to the left side probably explains the bent side stand and dented muffler and why the gauge mounts were changed out and the plastic dash missing. I can't see any other traces of damage but will have a close look at the frame when I strip it down. I like how a motorcycle leaves clues to its past and figuring them out is half the fun.
I have an 860GT tank I'd be willing to sell.
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Interesting 860GT: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-ducati-mike-hailwood-recreation-based-on-a-ducati-860-gt/
(https://cdn.bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/1975_ducati_mike_hailwood_recreation_based_on_a_ducati_860_gt_155498553095d565ef66e7d290439B5-9BF3-4C67-A1DC-C1DD4FB12039-620x465.jpeg)
Looks like he put a fair amount of money into it. Sadly its very hard to sell a custom or tribute for anything close to what has been invested.
Sadly, it only sold for $8,007.
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Looks like he put a fair amount of money into it. Sadly its very hard to sell a custom or tribute for anything close to what has been invested.
Sadly, it only sold for $8,007.
Wasn't "sadly" from the buyer's perspective! He bought it for the current market price (by definition) ... :thumb:
Lannis
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He bought it for the current market price (by definition) ... :thumb:
Lannis
Yep, the market for custom builds is never what the builder thinks it is, been there, done that with my Yamaha XT / TT 50 fling.
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Wasn't "sadly" from the buyer's perspective! He bought it for the current market price (by definition) ... :thumb:
Lannis
True. I’d say that the buyer got a good deal.
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Ok its come to this, ….. again, :embarrassed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBGp2fJv/IMG-3638.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I am not to good at leaving things as they are, I got back from a one week motorcycle trip from Phoenix via Vegas, San Francisco, Portland and home to Edmonton and once I was home the itch to pull something apart took over.
I have my Moto Morini 500 pulled apart, only 80 psi on one cylinder and 120 on the other and new oversize piston kits on order so nothing in particular to work on and the Ducati needs a rebuild so I put it on the bench and pulled it all apart.
Sheet metal off to the painter, parts to be replated go out next week and the cad plating box is filling up. Frame, swing arm, stands, triples go to the powder coater, wheels to be stripped next week and the rims get new chrome.
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I wished you would have stopped by when you were in Portland.
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Ok its come to this, ….. again, :embarrassed:
.....
I am not to good at leaving things as they are, ....the Ducati needs a rebuild so I put it on the bench and pulled it all apart.
I have no doubt you'll have the nicest 860GT in the world when you're done. :bow:
Can't wait to see the final result. :thumb:
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I wished you would have stopped by when you were in Portland.
Sorry Dave, I was riding with my older son and we got in around 6:00 p.m. and he wanted to stay downtown and watch the MMA fights at the Buffalo Wings bar then we were on the clock to make Edmonton Monday night so we were off first thing in the morning. This was the first time I have ridden into Portland.
Wow what a beautiful city!!
I will definitely be back through again and will make proper plans and say hello.
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Since I don't plan on splitting the crank cases I went back to my old stand by for cleaning aluminum, NAPA Aluminum Brightener diluted 50% with tap water.
As I have stated before this stuff contains hydrofluoric acid, extremely dangerous stuff, only use this product outdoors, wear a full face respirator with organic acid cartridges, rubber gloves and a rain suit. A high pressure car wash is needed to get the oxidation off the casting after the acid starts to do its work.
I plugged all the openings with various plastic / pvc / abs plugs and clear silicone and let the silicone harden over night.
Fill a mister bottle with the 50/50 solution, liberally soak the castings, let the white foam build up then hit the area with as high a pressure as you can find. My pressure washer is a cheap unit and it takes a lot of passes to get the aluminum clean.
I made 8 passes of solution / high pressure water blast to clean the engine. Then I dried the motor with compressed air and let it dry in the sun.
Regardless of how many passes of acid and pressure wash the castings will be slightly discoloured. I filled a pail with clean glass bead and used a siphon pistol blaster and compressed air to get the last of the oxidation off.
This process takes some patience and its not as nice as finish as vapour blasting but still it does leave a very presentable finish.
Before acid wash / bead blast
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLJ5Mqht/IMG-3648.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
After acid wash and a light bead blast
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5tDcbjY/IMG-3815.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I will pull the heads and cylinders, measure the bores, check the guides and vapour blast the parts that come off the motor.
The nice thing about the acid process is you can do this with the engine in the bike if you carefully seal everting off. From my experience the only thing the acid will effect is black anodizing so keep it off brake calipers and rotors.
If you follow proper safety protocol the acid process is safe and very effective. I just vacuum the used glass bead up off the drive way and throw it out. I used about 1/4 of a bag of glass bead to clean the motor. I will give the whole engine a spray of ACF50 before it goes back into the frame. And that's it, a couple hours of easy work and the engine looks close to new again.
Wheels stripped and old spokes and nipples soaking in rust remover. I soaked the wheels with a lot pf penetrating fluid the night before so the spokes came apart surprisingly easy. I had new stainless steel spokes and nipples made by Buchannan's but I want to save the old spokes and have them cad plated for spares. I hate throwing out old spokes, you never know when some one can make use of them.
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Wow, Jim, that motor looks great!
I will make a mental note of your method, and employ it, especially since I don't have a vapor blaster.
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Don't skimp on safety when using hydrofluoric acid. In my previous work life we would dissolve glass fiber filters in concentrated HF and it is very very dangerous to work with in strong concentrations. Diluted solutions still require care and concern. Bike project is looking good.
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Sorry Dave, I was riding with my older son and we got in around 6:00 p.m. and he wanted to stay downtown and watch the MMA fights at the Buffalo Wings bar then we were on the clock to make Edmonton Monday night so we were off first thing in the morning. This was the first time I have ridden into Portland.
Wow what a beautiful city!!
I will definitely be back through again and will make proper plans and say hello.
I understand. Shhh, don't tell anyone else what it's like here. We have too many people as it is. :wink:
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Spent part of Sunday blasting and wire brush on the cad plated parts, I try to save the original fasteners with the exception of the engine case bolts which will be replaced with polished stainless steel. Getting parts cad plated is very cheap but the devil is in the prep, if you want the fasteners to shine then the bare metal must be shiny prior to plating. I pay around $70 CDN for a bucket of parts, hard to beat that price!
Dropped the parts that need chrome off at Alberta Plating in Calgary, they told me plating the original flanged steel rims won't be cheap, hard to get into the flanges and around the nipples, at $300 a wheel it was probably no more expensive to go to flanged aluminum rims but I want it stock, so bite the bullet.
Stripped the frame and all the small black bits that need powder coating and left the lot of it with Impact Coatings in Edmonton, they do top notch powder coating.
Polished up the case side covers, I will pull the heads and cylinders this week t check the bores and guides.
I found the left and right control perches and switches on Ebay, stripped and powder coated the alloy castings and will fit new switches
There are a couple small things I am looking for, one is the removable hinge that bolts to the seat pan, I have two 1975 860 GT seats and the hinge bracket is missing from both, I could make one if nothing shows up. I found the instrument halves for the Smith mount brackets and am looking for the lower parts, again I could modify the ones I have by getting two more of the Smith upper mounts and welding them to the lower tabs I have. No big rush, everything eventually shows up on Ebay somewhere.
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:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Looking good. the donk has come up really nicely.
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I don't think you want to powder coat the switch gear, it will be too thick. Maybe your painter can put it on real thin? Nothing wrong with regular paint on parts like that.
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Don't skimp on safety when using hydrofluoric acid. In my previous work life we would dissolve glass fiber filters in concentrated HF and it is very very dangerous to work with in strong concentrations. Diluted solutions still require care and concern. Bike project is looking good.
THIS!!!!!!
In a former life I was a lab tech in a glass works doing quantitative analyses. To test for sodium the first step was dissolve the sample in conc. hydroflouric acid. That stuff is MEAN. Watching the fumes go up the fume cupboard had me hoping that done escaped.
Our glass etcher had a faulty pair of gloves from new; one had a pinhole in it. He was off work for over a week despite acting as soon as he knew something was wrong. I got under his finger nail and even after neutralising it it still burned him badly. The only way he could sleep was numb his finger in ice water, pain killers didn't help much. Awful stuff. :evil:
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I don't think you want to powder coat the switch gear, it will be too thick. Maybe your painter can put it on real thin? Nothing wrong with regular paint on parts like that.
Just painting the outside of the cast aluminum switch housing / lever perches, I masked off the inside and fitted sacrificial bolts to all threaded parts to keep powder out.
Today I pulled the rear head / cylinder off to have a look at what the condition of the bore / valves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YjfpmMYr/IMG-3854.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YjfpmMYr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TyZst58z/IMG-3850.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TyZst58z)
The cylinder is measuring 86.01 +/- so appears to be stock, no scores or ridges, piston clearance is in spec, 0.20 at the pin a little less in line with the valves
No scoring on the piston skirt
Ring gap is past spec at 0.52, an new set will go in each cylinder.
Valve seals are brittle, exhaust cap just broke up trying to pull it off, The guides feel just OK, will replace the guides with stock sizes and the valves are not pitted or burnt.
Having a bugger of a time trying to get the cam nut off, rattle gun wont budge it, I think I need to order the correct cam holding tool, afraid to give it any force, it seems like a delicate assembly. Nut is left hand thread (opposite of standard nut)?
Rocker pins pulled out with a bolt and series of sockets,
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLXkFzvt/IMG-3821.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The bushing in the rocker are to shaft has some movement, not a lot, should I be concerned?
I am used to Guzzi V Twins, think industrial strength and simple, first impression of the Ducati L Twin complex and delicate, perhaps not a fair comparison, just my initial impression.
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Did you hear the head prior to pulling the rocker shafts? Are they an interference fit?
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THIS!!!!!!
In a former life I was a lab tech in a glass works doing quantitative analyses. To test for sodium the first step was dissolve the sample in conc. hydroflouric acid. That stuff is MEAN. Watching the fumes go up the
Indeed, the NAPA Aluminum brighteners active ingredient is Hydrofluoric acid, diluted and I dilute it 50/50. I really don't use it much anymore since I got a vapour blaster but on this build I don't want to split the cases so there is no safe way to vapour blast the cases hence the acid route. I can't stress enough the need for proper protection using a quality full face respirator with acid filters, rubber gloves, rubber boots, rain suit etc.
Once I pulled the cylinder I vapour blasted it, its such a safe, clean and quick process and the results make the alloy casting look like new.
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Did you hear the head prior to pulling the rocker shafts? Are they an interference fit?
I did not heat the head, the rockers pulled out fairly easily with a puller. Just took time using longer sockets, washer and different length bolts. Bevel Heaven sells a proper puller tool but I had a variety of proper metric bolts that fit the thread pattern.
I got a used Haines manual in the mail today so its time to do some reading. I have a hard copy of the factory manual but I feel its a bit lacking in detailed information.
I took a long look at the wiring diagram and the remnants of my cut up wiring harness and ordered 10 feet of every colour of wire listed on the diagram to make the new harness. My harness has had the original switch wires and connectors cut off and an ugly assortment of crimp connectors fixed to Honda switches. The headlight and idiot light ends were also cut up, taped over, etc... So many of the bikes I have worked on have had the original wire harness all cut up and messed with. We Guzzi guys are spoiled having Greg Bender offer all of the Guzzi wire harness kits made to the exact pattern of the originals for very fair prices. I had to make my own Laverda and Moto Morini harness, not that its difficult IF the original harness exists.
The Moto Morini 500 has to be the 'switch board' of Italian motorcycle wiring! The Ducati 860 is simple in comparison. Once you understand it the Morini design makes sense and since every system has its own 'harness' trouble shooting is simple
Then there is Laverda, two rows of these CEV connector blocks, and wires going back and forth along the frame top tube, its very busy and could be so much simpler and the gas tank has to come off to get to this junction
Benelli must have used the same electrical designers as Morini, wires cross over the fuses making it a pain to change fuses
Moto Guzzi used the same style of CEV fuse box as Moto Morini and Benelli, but their layout for the V7 Sport is the cleanest and simplest of them all.
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I pulled the front cylinder / head today, same shape and measurements as the rear one. Carboned up, maybe the bike was et up too rich for far too long. Got the cams out, all the bearings feel ok. Ordered over size valve guides, new valve seals, exhaust valves, circlips, rings, gaskets and O rings. I will hone the cylinders and fit the new rings, I think that's as far as I will go on the engine, leaving the bottom end as it is. The con rods feel pretty tight and the engine ran quiet with no strange noises. Vapour blasted all the bare castings and then ran a bottom tap through all the threaded holes.
Ever notice the cooling fins are orientated differently from the front to rear cylinders to allow for maximum air flow? clever
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5ry7KJJ/IMG-3819.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Valve seats look fine, will get the valves / seats cut
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBB67Kvz/IMG-3857.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Case gaskets peeled off and ready to go back together.
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Ever notice the cooling fins are orientated differently from the front to rear cylinders to allow for maximum air flow? clever
The first production racer that they built from the bevel drive they put a rear cylinder on the front, I guess because of a bigger fin area.
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Little things make me happy :grin:
I am fortunate to live in an area where the majority of the oil field service activity occurs with so many specialty shops. B&H Metal refinishing in Edmonton specialize in cadmium plating on an industrial scale. I am so fortunate that the shop owner is a gear head and takes the time and care to plate small orders for guys like me. He has never lost a single part in the 10+ years I have dealt with him. I took a little more time preparing the parts this time going the extra step of polishing the bolt heads prior to plating to get as close to original appearance as possible. Like all finishing process the end result is only as good as the preparation; parts must be cleaned off grease, oil and rust and if a bright surface is desired then the part needs to be polished prior to plating.
I saved all the original rusty spokes and nipples(but I am fitting new stainless ones), these were cleaned and then run over with a brass wire wheel, not polished.
Bolt heads polished, the picture really doesn't do the finish justice
I could have replaced most of the nuts and bolts with new plated parts or stainless but to me it seems a shame to throw out all the original fasteners, the whole lot cost me $80 to have platted.
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Nice.. :thumb:
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The forks got stripped down new seals and O rings, reproduction dust caps and I polished the bottom sliders
Transducer boots and high tension leads replaced
And I picked up the tin work from the painter yesterday, once again Craig did an amazing job
Wheels have been respoked with new stainless kits from Buchannan's and the rims went to the chrome shop to be re-plated, all built up now with new bearings and they went off to get new tires mounted this week.
I will get the frame suspended next week and start to put it all back together.
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Thanks for keeping us posted, Jim. It's going to be a beauty!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Such cool dna in those. Those lines do grow on a guy as they age.
Strange but true, back in the day, I thought they were one of the ugliest motorcycles ever made. Now, I like it!
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Strange but true, back in the day, I thought they were one of the ugliest motorcycles ever made. Now, I like it!
I think its still pretty ugly today but that's part of the charm of this bike :wink:
Started to assemble a few things today starting with the swing arm, the eccentric swing arm / chain tensioner is pretty neat, I like the simple design of the pins that retain the axle and the cirlcips that centre the axle in the aluminum eccentrics
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZY0fXLy/IMG-5582.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
If the assembly is kept clean and lubricated the swing arm should move back and forth true to the frame, start with a pin in one side then drive the axle all the way to the opposite side until the pin can be fit then fit one circlip, drive the axle tight to the clip and fit the circlip to the opposite side
(https://i.postimg.cc/wB3p9hfT/IMG-5543.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Once the circlips are in the axle is centred, nice simple design
Rebuilt shocks and replated reflector brackets, I bought some repro reflectors to use
(https://i.postimg.cc/gchGwHYx/IMG-5538.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
New steering stem bearings
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCwzCCRf/IMG-5576.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
tapped the races in with a brass drift
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkWf3Kbt/IMG-5575.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I think the lower triple got dropped by the powder coater, the threads on the stem are buggered on one side, I tried filling the stem with a thread file but its not the best, I need to find a big die, I think the stem is 25mm x 1.0 ??
(https://i.postimg.cc/br0XmLJL/IMG-5572.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
new headlight bracket rubber bushings and replated hardware
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwmb4qSf/IMG-5584.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Fitted the upper triple without the top stem nut, will need to run a die around the stem threads\
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A mate of mine has a '76 900SS that he rides almost daily. Even takes it on dirt when he goes camping! We keep telling him that he's crazy and should get a second bike but he loves riding it so much that he just doesn't care.
nice bike, as long as you dont plan to ride it much.
forget everything you now about expensive spare parts, ducati bevels spare parts are in a class of their own.
i recently tried to buy a used engine cover for my ss, bid on ebay , the cover eventually sold for over 1000 dollar
huh? :cry:
that is what keeping me from riding my 900SS more , even a small mishap will end up pretty expensive.
having said that , you will be appreciating the guzzi spare parts availability
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I think the lower triple got dropped by the powder coater, the threads on the stem are buggered on one side, I tried filling the stem with a thread file but its not the best, I need to find a big die, I think the stem is 25mm x 1.0 ??
You can straighten the threads with a thread file, if you determine what pitch the stem is.
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A mate of mine has a '76 900SS that he rides almost daily. Even takes it on dirt when he goes camping! We keep telling him that he's crazy and should get a second bike but he loves riding it so much that he just doesn't care.
That's a happy, centered rider right there!
He loves riding it, he's happy with it, he's bonded with it. Bugger the cost; and I'll bet what you like that he's spending LESS on Ducati parts and depreciation due to wear than most of us spend buying the new bike-of-the-year because we're not ever really happy with the one we have, eating the depreciation every day whether we're riding it or not ....
Lannis
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You can straighten the threads with a thread file, if you determine what pitch the stem is.
I tried for a good long while with my eight face thread file, I just can't seem the get the flat spot out enough to allow the stem nut to freely spin. I had disassembled the front end and regressed it before I totally stripped the bike and all was good. I am guessing the lower triple took a good fall and landed on the tip of the stem. I can get a thin jamb nut to spin on with some work but not the deep stem nut. Ordering some Chinese dies this morning, shipping is free. I may have to press the stem out of the lower triple and put in the lathe to check if tis out of round.
Stuff happens as they say :sad:
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A little progress this week, emptying out a few more bags of parts,
cleaned up the Aprilia signal lights, buffed up the aluminum with rouge polish, had the steel parts zinc plated or chromed
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx3ZzCQK/IMG-5596.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
New rubber grommets and steel sleeves for the tail light bracket
(https://i.postimg.cc/yN3bfnp9/IMG-5594.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I powder coated the rear bracket and save the original CEV tail light assembly
(https://i.postimg.cc/G21qXRyw/IMG-5597.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I made up a sub harness for the tail light and signa lights and used pvc tubing from British Wiring
I found a pair of the stock air boxes, getting rid f pod filters and going stock
cleaned up the fuse box, found a NOS lid and reused the regulator / rectifier
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4cGvnb0/IMG-5610.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
A repro muffler homologation tag
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNYctsd8/IMG-5613.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Rear half of the wiring harness hooked up
I bought a used dash, it was cracked but the idiot lights are all good, swapped them to the repro dash
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhNPMRW7/IMG-5604.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgkc2zKQ/IMG-5602.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Smiths gauges in the mail today to be restored by Andy at British Cables in Medicine Hat Alberta
Repro foot peg rubbers and new chrome springs from Eurotrash on Ebay
New intake valves arrived from Australia on Friday, dropped them off at the machine shop on Saturday, hopefully I get the heads back in a couple weeks
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:thumb:
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Where did you get the repro foot peg rubbers?
Do you know, are they the same as 750GT?
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Where did you get the repro foot peg rubbers?
Do you know, are they the same as 750GT?
Bevel Rubber our of Australia. Not sure if the 750GT are the same but the Bevel Rubber guys will know
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A mate of mine has a '76 900SS that he rides almost daily. Even takes it on dirt when he goes camping! We keep telling him that he's crazy and should get a second bike but he loves riding it so much that he just doesn't care.
I love this guy! That’s the ticket. He’s not crazy. These machines are meant to be ridden, and loved on, and appreciated, and then ridden some more. Like your dog wants to go for a walk, or swim, or catch a frisbee.
Good for him that he rides what he loves to ride.
Kindly post a few pictures of this mate of yours on his Duck. I’d really enjoy that.
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I don’t know if Keith Hale is still riding his green frame 750SS to work. I remember seeing it years ago at Laguna Seca, looking slightly scruffy and parked in the dirt.
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/1974-ducati-750-super-sport-me-my-bike/
750 and later GT footpeg rubbers are the same and are available here and there, a Google search shows several retail sources. As mentioned above, Bevel Rubber makes them and a lot of other good stuff.
https://bevelrubber.com.au/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_16&products_id=12&zenid=5l1rmmlj505ruu3cugq15g6175
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*Really* nice attention to detail.. :thumb: Attaboy.
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I had the one original Brembo disc measured up, there was a deep rust groove on the back side of the rotor and too deep to turn the rotor.
Bevel Heaven sent me a pair of new Brembo rotors, not cheap but I decided to add a rotor and go with a pair. The new rotors arrived bare streel, I used my DIY Eastwood powder coat gun to apply a coat of flat black powder. Eastwood sells the heat resistant masking tape as well as powder and the electrostatic gun.
Masked and washed clean with acetone.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dmVvF8k/IMG-5692.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
A light coat of powder applied with just a couple psi pressure
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLFvDBts/IMG-5693.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Flip the rotor over and dust the other side then into an oven heated to 390 F for twenty minutes
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKZ04Mrb/IMG-5694.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Remove from oven and let cool
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBg3GmtB/IMG-5695.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Then peel off the masking tape
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0B04XZx/IMG-5696.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I use an old used wall oven that I fit into a simple 1" HSS frame, I get these ovens for around $50 or less and when they die on me I just pick up another used one on Kijiji.
DIY powder is so easy, no fumes, easy clean up, super durable finish and cheap once you invest in the powder gun and a simple oven.
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:thumb:
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This is great stuff. Can’t wait to see it all come together
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Did you actually hand-cut all those gores in the tape so that it would go on without bunching and wrinkling? Or is there tape that's made to lay down in a circle? :huh:
This is a great illustrated narrative.
Lannis
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Did you actually hand-cut all those gores in the tape so that it would go on without bunching and wrinkling? Or is there tape that's made to lay down in a circle? :huh:
This is a great illustrated narrative.
Lannis
I just lay the strips of tape down with one hand and trim them with a sharp xacto blade around the outer edge. Once I have laid down the whole surface I scribe cut the inside circle using the lip of the rotor surface as a guide. Only takes about 10 minutes to mask both sides of a rotor. The tapes is laying on top of the lower piece, just straight sections. I just press down the tape with the smooth plastic handle of the knife.
This is the heat tape I use from Eastwood, I have a couple widths for different jobs
https://www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-high-temperature-polyester-masking-tape.html
The powder gun I have is the cheap one Eastwood sells, I have had it for at least seven years and it still works great
https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-original-diy-powder-coating-gun-starter-kit.html
If you haven't tried powder coating I urge you to give it a shot, no runs or drips, no fumes, and super tough finish. The smallest air compressor will be fine, only 2 ~ 4 psi required.
Residue powder just sweeps up.
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Wow, looks great. I need to get a powder coating setup!
I should also add a second disc to my 750GT. Funny, I was just out in the garage last night looking at the mounting tabs for a second caliper, contemplating adding a second disc. Now would be a good time, as the single rotor it does have is a little warped, so, I need to buy a new one anyway, might as well just get two.
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The bike shop called to say the tires were in and mounted on the wheels. I went for Continental front and back.
First to get the rear brake assembled, new bearings in the hubs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnPR68hz/IMG-5736.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
the drum spreader I made years ago for my Eldorado rebuild still comes in handy
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb6TF2zh/IMG-5739.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
and the sprocket carrier, rims have been re-chromed and Buchanan's made me new stainless steel spoke kits.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZrFN7pq/IMG-5750.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
rear wheel mounted
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQY3kYpw/IMG-5752.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I saved the original brake cable with the stop light switch
Front fender on
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFNhhF6r/IMG-5762.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I need four new front disc carrier through bolts
installed a new steering lock
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtxM47Qb/IMG-5764.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/63wFynzv/IMG-5771.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gj25KpCc/IMG-5769.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Lovely. :thumb:
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Lovely. :thumb:
Thanks Chuck, I am really enjoying getting to know this Ducati
I bought a cheap die off Ebay from China for under $20 (free shipping), there was a flat spot on the stem that needed to be recut
After a couple passes off and on the stem was good
The repro Ceriani top stem nut is a 'tight' fit, had to oil it and work it on and off several times. The O.D, was also too big, turned it down in the lathe
Top clamp fitted, stem nut set and steering damper back in place
and the underside of the friction damper
Picked up a set of four new M10 x 100 bolts and nylocks to secure the twin rotors
One caliper rebuilt,
I found a RH used twin bleeder that I need to rebuild. I need to order the rubber spacers that fit into the steel brake line guides
A rolling chassis
(https://i.postimg.cc/FscqgTqL/IMG-5773.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
A very unsporting pair of original wide handlebars have been re-chromed, should be very comfortable for my rigid back, the switch wires pass neatly through the bars, might be fun getting the bundle of left hand switch wires through.
I dropped the seat pan, original foam and repro seat cover off at an upholstery shop today, hope the repop is a good match.
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Really enjoying this, Jim. Such a beautiful job!
Shaun
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Really enjoying this, Jim. Such a beautiful job!
Shaun
Thanks Shaun, its sure different from a Guzzi!
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I love the color of those fenders. Cant wait to see her back together!
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Switch gear went on today, I found a complete NOS left hand perch and switch, only difficulty was threading the wires through the handlebars, I cut off the molex tips, threaded the wires through then slid the pvc sheath over from the bottom and crimped new molex connectors on.
I found a used left hand switch holder / throttle assembly, cleaned it up and powder coated the alloy casting, a NOS switch (Aermacchi uses them, priced right ie. cheap) on Ebay, The re-chromed bars are now thicker so I reamed out the plastic throttle slide with an adjustable reamer in my lathe, hand spun the reamer holding the throttle tube, worked great.
Same deal with the electrical, cut off the molex and sent the wires through,
I bought a repro ID foil but its not identical, the 'right' ones are out of stock, this will do for now,
I found a good used set of Smiths instrument holders, lucked out on Ebay and got them for cheap.
Fitted new brake hoses I had made up locally
Installed the headlight bucket, front signal lights and reflectors
Now to figure this mess out!
The original relays sit inside the headlight bucket, they are in poor shape and I would like to fit modern relays, this is the electrical diagram I recreated in AutoCad
Now I sure could use some help with this wiring diagram and fitting new relays
The relay(?) drawn below the headlight - can I fit a standard relay here?
The wires are:
Green to headlight
Black to ground
Green/Black (handlebar switch)
these three wires are joined together: White (fuse)-Yellow/Black (ignition switch) - Brown (handlebar switch)
Can someone please explain to me what terminals I would connect these wires to on a new relay?
Next mystery:
Looks like a Horn Relay?? (drawn above the headlight on the diagram)
Green wire to the Horn city/country switch on the dash
Brown wire to Horn city/country switch on dash
Red to left hand handlebar Horn push button
Can I fit a modern relay and if so please tell me what terminals I connect these wires to?
Last mystery,
There is another device (relay??) that has two green wires from the ignition transducers, a blue wire to ignition, and violet to the right hand kill switch.
Is the device a relay or some other kind of device?
Thanks in advance for any guidance, did i mentions I really struggle with all things electrical?
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Wow, looking great, Jim. I LOVE the orange paint!
Are you sticking with the stock master cylinder with the second caliper up front?
Also, does the second rotor just go right on the hub and line up with the second caliper, or is a spacer required as it was when I added the 2nd disc to my Eldorado?
That front end looks to be the same as my 750GT.
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Wow, looking great, Jim. I LOVE the orange paint!
Are you sticking with the stock master cylinder with the second caliper up front?
Also, does the second rotor just go right on the hub and line up with the second caliper, or is a spacer required as it was when I added the 2nd disc to my Eldorado?
That front end looks to be the same as my 750GT.
Yep using the stock Brembo master cylinder for dual discs, it was reportedly too much for a single caliper but better with a pair - its the same master cylinder and caliper set up on my Laveda SF and Guzzi 750S.
The right hand caliper bolts right on to the stock fork leg, it was designed to take a pair and was stock on the electric start 860 GTE.
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Yep using the stock Brembo master cylinder for dual discs, it was reportedly too much for a single caliper but better with a pair - its the same master cylinder and caliper set up on my Laveda SF and Guzzi 750S.
The right hand caliper bolts right on to the stock fork leg, it was designed to take a pair and was stock on the electric start 860 GTE.
Thanks.
I know the 750 Sport and 750SS both had dual discs up front, so, I figured they just used the same hub and fork across the board.
I think I'll be adding a second disc over the winter. It definitely brakes better with a single than the Eldorado did with a single, but, it'd be nice to get it closer to braking like a modern bike.
The stock master cylinder on the Eldo was WAY too big for a single caliper, require a LOT of force to actually stop the bike.
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Looking fabulous Jim.
I just love your rebuild essays. You do superb work.
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Thanks Muzz!
I dropped off the powder coated seat pan, original seat foam and a reproduction seat cover on Friday noon, got a call today its done! wow talk about fast service.
What a funky design... so 70's Italian, sharp edges abound :grin:
I got the seat cover on Ebay, Thailand supplier$60.00, came with the strap as well, nice quality, they sell complete low back style seats as well
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTWk4SVQ/IMG-5798.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nswwjNdF)
Rubber bumpers pads (rectangular and round style) from Bevel Rubber in Australia
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DUCATI-GT860-GT860-860-GT-SADDLE-SEAT-COVER-ZALA/223727502967?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0Mt84Dr/IMG-5828.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JHjTF0R0)
I found a seller on Ebay listing two of the removable and always missing seat hinges + a latch mechanism
And the Smith gauges I mailed off last Monday are restored and on their way back to me, should have them by the end of the week.
Now if only the machine shop could get to the heads......
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I built a Ducati 860 GT out of three parts bikes before I knew that no one wanted them. It was actually a really good bike. I even did a track day on it. It was slow by modern standards but fun as heck. I gave it a rattle can paint job in black but it was rubbed out between coats and it looked pretty good. I painted the tank badges gold. By the way, it was a non-desmo bike that used hairpin valve springs like a Manx Norton.
(https://i.ibb.co/ssdz4bf/Ducati-860-72.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ssdz4bf)
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By the way, it was a non-desmo bike that used hairpin valve springs like a Manx Norton.
(https://i.ibb.co/ssdz4bf/Ducati-860-72.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ssdz4bf)
The 860 / 900 GT / GTS were the last of the non-desmo bevel twins. I think the whole Desmo thing is over rated, most all other manufacturers figured out how to effectively close a high reving valve train with better springs.
My 860 GT has conventional valve springs.
Were hairpin springs a performance option in the 70's?
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I stand corrected. It was my Ducati 350 single that sported hairpin valve springs. Time plays tricks with memory. My Ducati 860GT was fun and dead solid reliable. My Ducati 350 was great once i got the Mikuni carburetor dialed in.
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The ‘performance option’ with regard to non-Desmo bevel engines is not related to the springs, but the valve gear and adjustment: Sport and early 750 GT had shim valve adjustment, with adjustment of the later 750 GT and all 860s by lock nut and screw.
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The ‘performance option’ with regard to non-Desmo bevel engines is not related to the springs, but the valve gear and adjustment: Sport and early 750 GT had shim valve adjustment, with adjustment of the later 750 GT and all 860s by lock nut and screw.
I like things simple, lock nut and screw valve adjustment is fine with me!
Machine shop just called me, the valve seats are worn out and new seats need to be pressed in, machinist says someone has been in the heads before and the valve face cut was poorly done.... cha-ching :sad:
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Awesome bike! I've always been a Ducati guy but became also a Guzzi guy about 7 years ago. Miss my 900ss should have never sold. Currently looking for a 750 Laguna F1 if anyone has a lead.
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I like things simple, lock nut and screw valve adjustment is fine with me!
Machine shop just called me, the valve seats are worn out and new seats need to be pressed in, machinist says someone has been in the heads before and the valve face cut was poorly done.... cha-ching :sad:
On the bright side, you'll know it's down right when it's down.
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I’m really enjoying your work on this project. Please keep the photos and commentary coming.
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I bought a couple sets of five LED dash indicators for real cheap on Ebay, Chinese of course. The little coloured plastic lens inside each idiot light had clouded over or are missing. I replaced the 12v bulbs on my Benelli 650 Tornado rebuild with these and thought I would do the same for the Ducati. Some of the light sockets were damaged so just as well to swap out to LED.
These are real small, smaller than the 12v bulbs
The little LED bulb is just push fit into the metal bezel, I just pulled the bulb by the wires out the back
The bulb pushes into the back of the original screw in cap but the bulb will push right out the opening in the cap
So I just took my hole punch and punched out a thick clear plastic disc from some of that annoying packaging that is on most everything today
I pushed the clear disc in 1st though the back then the bulb
The wires on the LED are miniscule
I ended up pulling the original wires off the metal lugs on the back of the LED and then soldered some fine wires to the LED
Push the LED with new wires into the cap, feed the wires through the front and out the back, then I fed some black silicone into the back of each socket to keep the LED in place
From the front it looks stock but hopefully the idiot lights will now be visible in daylight
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvg9HG14/IMG-5888.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QKj6RsCq)
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Here is your chance to rebuild your own ugly duckling, on Ebay.
looks to be complete, better than what I started with, has the correct instruments, signal lights, exhaust and handlebar controls
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-Ducati-GT/193229666644?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-Ducati-GT/193229666644?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
The Hagerty valuation page he references is WAY off. I double checked to make sure he didn't get the value on a 900SS instead.
Looks like Hagerty has bad data for this model and year. I'd say the numbers they have for a 1976 860GTS are closer to real.
Hopefully he doesn't really think that it is worth what he is implying it is worth.
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The Hagerty valuation page he references is WAY off. I double checked to make sure he didn't get the value on a 900SS instead.
Looks like Hagerty has bad data for this model and year. I'd say the numbers they have for a 1976 860GTS are closer to real.
Hopefully he doesn't really think that it is worth what he is implying it is worth.
I think it’s a $4K bike but the seller probably thinks he has gem that’s worth 4 or 5 times that!
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I think it’s a $4K bike but the seller probably thinks he has gem that’s worth 4 or 5 times that!
Currently at $3,950 with 5 days to go.
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Waiting for me at the office this morning my Smiths gauges restored by Vintage British Cables
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryPbGWnW/IMG-5851.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jCyZtWrd)
Got them back in one week, amazing service and they look beautiful. Andy totally disassembles the gauges and replaces anything that needs attention, beautiful! $450.00 CDN for the pair :thumb:
www.vintagebritishc ables.com
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Wow, very nice Jim.
By the time you are done you will have the nicest 860GT in existence.
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Wow, very nice Jim.
By the time you are done you will have the nicest 860GT in existence.
Not sure about that but it will be a nice bevel, thanks for the support!
| finished off the rear sub harness, HVC Cycle sent me a selection of bullet crimp connectors and protective sleeves, signal lights and tail lights connected, grey wire with an eyelet is a separate ground I ran from the tail light / signals.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y4cz5kym/IMG-5914.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Y4cz5kym)
Last rear sub harness, the battery connections
(https://i.postimg.cc/4KSYqZBk/IMG-5612.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4KSYqZBk)
In the front I made up bullet connectors to connect the dash idiot lights rather than trying to make the connections from the main harness to the light sockets, easier to assemble the gauges / plastic dash bezels and light leads then feed the dash sub harness into the headlight bucket. I soldered the resistor and diodes to the old fibre plate for the Engine Stop Relay, hopefully it works. Ducati Paddy in the UK has an old used one he is sending me to compare the components to what the electrical component shop sold me yesterday. I ran some dedicated ground wires from the signal light stems / headlight bucket bolts to a common ground tab, the factory relies on grounding signal lights through the frame / bolt connections but that seems suspect given the rear fender is isolated with rubber bushings and the headlight is isolated with rubber bushings around the fork tubes + all the new paint.
The horn relay and horn switch still needs to be hooked up - Bevel Heaven had a NOS horn relay so I will fit that.
That should only leave the headlight socket wires and the front signal lights / dash indicator light, I think I need to fit diodes between the Left and Right signal light leads that feed up to a common dash idiot light. I am figuring that if the diodes are not installed when the signal lights are on the power will run through the dash idiot light and power the opposite side signals???
Another head scratcher, getting the seat latch working, its a bit finicky getting the adjustable latch tightened in the right position to grasp the little lug on the frame, seems to be good now.
I need to find a little black plastic cap for the seat latch
I did find a source for a reproduction under seat decal in Australia, ordered a couple, I have the latter flat seat as well. Contact Phil Hitchcock - www.roadandrace.com .au - $20.00 AU each, postage included
Getting this spring in the right spot and tight takes a few attempts
(https://i.postimg.cc/75ZV3mJf/IMG-5862.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75ZV3mJf)
A couple more little jobs done, going to get the dash finished next.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XGRHxdSt/IMG-5829.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XGRHxdSt)
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I got the dash together today, a lot going on in a small space
rubber rings surround the instruments that then drop in from the outside of the top bezel section
(https://i.postimg.cc/xNQGcRSj/IMG-5881.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xNQGcRSj)
Steel rings bolt to the underside of the instrument, then a large O ring fits around the tangs of the bracket
A second steel bracket with tabs that fasten to the underside of the upper tipple clamp shares the O ring joining the two steel rings together and allowing the instrument to flex
The bottom half of the bezel now folds over the upper half
(https://i.postimg.cc/dhfxDzNq/IMG-5882.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dhfxDzNq)
Instrument running lights plug into the back of the gauges
(https://i.postimg.cc/vcqPSJsW/IMG-5891.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcqPSJsW)
The two plastic bezel sections sandwich the steel bracket but I don't like the idea of applying pressure to the plastic so I fitted these bushings I had from an old dirt bike side cover
On the upper half I reamed out the holes and then made up some nylon bushes to take the pressure of the through bolt mounts
All the electrical passes through the opening in the base
A couple self tapping black automotive trim screws fasten the two halves along the front lip
And its done
(https://i.postimg.cc/QKj6RsCq/IMG-5888.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QKj6RsCq)
The tach and speedo cables I bought don't fit the mounts on the Smiths gauges, probably for Veglia instruments
Andy at British Cables is making up new ones from scratch to match the original cable fittings and lengths
Also fitted the Left caliper, used a steel insert to fit 10mm inserts into the caliper body, this caliper was not threaded like the right hand original, either from a Guzzi or Laverda, they use the same caliper but rely on bolts and nuts to secure the caliper to the fork leg
1st time I used these, easy enough to do but I had to get the right metric tap and metric drill bit
Insert just threads in with the bolt then drive the vertical tangs down into the threads and then file the top of the insert flush wit the caliper body
Some spare Guzzi LeMans front brake steel lines fit the purpose on the Ducati
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Awesome bike! I've always been a Ducati guy but became also a Guzzi guy about 7 years ago. Miss my 900ss should have never sold. Currently looking for a 750 Laguna F1 if anyone has a lead.
In your area...
https://classicavenue.com/1989-ducati-750-f1-laguna-seca/
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Hi Jim, Great stuff there. I'm curious about the dimension between bolt centers on the caliper you added. Looks to be real close to the Brembos on my K75.
If you have a minute to spare shoot me a dimension, Thanks.
Paul B :boozing:
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Hi Jim, Great stuff there. I'm curious about the dimension between bolt centers on the caliper you added. Looks to be real close to the Brembos on my K75.
If you have a minute to spare shoot me a dimension, Thanks.
Paul B :boozing:
Centre line spacing of Brembo caliper mounting holes is 108mm
Cheers
Jim
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Centre line spacing of Brembo caliper mounting holes is 108mm
Very interesting tidbit for the archives, same spacing as on the K75 and probably the 100's as well. Fluid line in is the same, but my bleeders are right next to the line.
Paul B :boozing:
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Is that caliper an F08?
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Is that caliper an F08?
Yes standard Brembo F08, dual bleeder type, pretty common 70's Italian bike fitment.
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Yes standard Brembo F08, dual bleeder type, pretty common 70's Italian bike fitment.
Hmm, I actually have one left over from my Eldo. When I put the second one on it, I bought a matched pair, but, this one is fine.
Only problem would be that my 750GT (should be the same calipers) has a single bleeder on on it, and this is a dual bleeder. I like symmetry.
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Hmm, I actually have one left over from my Eldo. When I put the second one on it, I bought a matched pair, but, this one is fine.
Only problem would be that my 750GT (should be the same calipers) has a single bleeder on on it, and this is a dual bleeder. I like symmetry.
I agree, matching calipers are nice to have :thumb:
The dual bleeders are getting harder to find, I bought one a couple weeks ago but it had the through bolts seized to the aluminum castings, I will need to drill out. If I see some original F08 dual bleeders on Ebay for a decent price I buy them.
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I agree, matching calipers are nice to have :thumb:
The dual bleeders are getting harder to find, I bought one a couple weeks ago but it had the through bolts seized to the aluminum castings, I will need to drill out. If I see some original F08 dual bleeders on Ebay for a decent price I buy them.
I may have a few, will send them to you once I remember to dig them out.
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I may have a few, will send them to you once I remember to dig them out.
Wow that would be great :thumb:
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I bought a couple sets of five LED dash indicators for real cheap on Ebay, Chinese of course. The little coloured plastic lens inside each idiot light had clouded over or are missing. I replaced the 12v bulbs on my Benelli 650 Tornado rebuild with these and thought I would do the same for the Ducati. Some of the light sockets were damaged so just as well to swap out to LED.
You really don't need sockets for your LEDs in fact they are more reliable without them, I just solder the wires direct to the LED base.
I buy these 194s by the hundred for a project and also use them inside the existing bezels of a bike, use the same colour as the lens
The nice thing about these is they are not polarity dependent as they each have a bridge rectifier inside, this is nice for a flasher circuit where you have one lamp for both directions.
Don't use a lamp between left and right if you are using LED bulbs in the turn signals, you need a pair or diodes with the lamp to chassis there otherwise you will get crosstalk.
I did buy sockets for these but I found if there was any strain on the wires they would lose contact so because the LED will pretty much last forever I elected to skip that item.
If you want to dim these down for a lamp like High Beam add a resiator like 56k or even 100k.
I have done several of the bezels like they use on the spine frame bikes where I simply glue the lamps into the existing fitting, they have a nice shoulder that makes this easy.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/wedge-bulbs/194-led-bulb-1-led-miniature-wedge-retrofit-car/197/ I have only ever bought the 90 degree ones
They even look ok if you just drill a hole in a plate and poke them through gluing them from behind, with 1/8" plate they end up flush.
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You really don't need sockets for your LEDs in fact they are more reliable without them, I just solder the wires direct to the LED base.
I buy these 194s by the hundred for a project and also use them inside the existing bezels of a bike, use the same colour as the lens
The nice thing about these is they are not polarity dependent as they each have a bridge rectifier inside, this is nice for a flasher circuit where you have one lamp for both directions.
Don't use a lamp between left and right if you are using LED bulbs in the turn signals, you need a pair or diodes with the lamp to chassis there otherwise you will get crosstalk.
I did buy sockets for these but I found if there was any strain on the wires they would lose contact so because the LED will pretty much last forever I elected to skip that item.
If you want to dim these down for a lamp like High Beam add a resiator like 56k or even 100k.
I have done several of the bezels like they use on the spine frame bikes where I simply glue the lamps into the existing fitting, they have a nice shoulder that makes this easy.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/wedge-bulbs/194-led-bulb-1-led-miniature-wedge-retrofit-car/197/ I have only ever bought the 90 degree ones
They even look ok if you just drill a hole in a plate and poke them through gluing them from behind, with 1/8" plate they end up flush.
Those LED bulbs look perfect, I will consider them for next time. I did hook up a pair of diodes between the L and R signal light leads that run up to the dash bulb to eliminate the cross current.
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The machine shop I use called to tell me the heads are done, four guides and pair of intake and exhaust valves and where back to good. Springs measured within spec.
The machinist who I have known for ages told me they where the worst set of heads he has seen, the valve seats where very poorly cut as where the valves, new seats installed and cut with a machine that cuts the three face cut in one pass matched to the valves. It pays to have professionals that really know what they are doing handle this work.
This is getting to be a habit, the Moto Morini 500 I just finished suffered at the hands of a botched cylinder rebore that resulted in replacement iron liners. You can't skimp on machine work and few people really want to take the time to do it right.
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Painter finished adding the black to the side covers, had to put them on with the tank to see what it will look like
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7FbcHQr/IMG-5915.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2q47mJP9)
I started to pull the pieces together to assemble the heads / cams etc, and on the rear cam bevel gear I found a couple teeth are missing the corresponding tower gear is fine, the other set is all good as well.
Do I risk putting it back together with this chipped gear or look for a new gear???
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By looking at the other teeth....that gear is worn out!
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By looking at the other teeth....that gear is worn out!
Yeah figured so, the new ones come as a set and are damn expensive at $479.00
https://store.bevelheaven.com/Engine-Related/Bevel-Gear-Set-Upper-860-900/
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Wow, Jim, that is looking NICE! :thumb:
Of course, we've come to expect nothing less from you :wink:
Yeah figured so, the new ones come as a set and are damn expensive at $479.00
https://store.bevelheaven.com/Engine-Related/Bevel-Gear-Set-Upper-860-900/
YIKES!
That stings, but, I know you know what to do. $$$$$
Same thing I did when I was going my Eldorado -- close my eyes to the $$$ until it is done.
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Add it to the list. Whew....slows me down.....
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YIKES!
That stings, but, I know you know what to do. $$$$$
Same thing I did when I was going my Eldorado -- close my eyes to the $$$ until it is done.
Well the good news, sorta, is Bevel Heaven is having a 30% off Sale on all Domi Racer stock including the bevel gear set, closed my eyes and hit the pay tab, sure hope this is the end of it but I kinda doubt it....
I flushed out the crankcase with varsol a couple times, tipped the motor over and blew everything out as best I could, no sign of the chips off the gear, the heads have been off before so perhaps the chipped gear predates the last time the heads were off
I opened up the sludge traps, they are on the face of the crank counter weight, one side only, two traps, glad I did the plugs were quite loose and there was about 1/2" of sludge in each one, plug remove and this is what I found
(https://i.postimg.cc/YGMfSR7r/IMG-5922.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YGMfSR7r)
I taped a piece of rubber hose to my shop vac and pried out the sludge while vacuuming the sludge trap and blew brake cleaner into the cavity until it was clean
Thats more like it
(https://i.postimg.cc/QKMQQMVv/IMG-5924.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QKMQQMVv)
Blue locktite around the trap plugs
I wet honed the cylinders, I use WD40 as a lubricant. seems to work well
New set of rings and pin clips
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z9h6fHC8/IMG-5928.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z9h6fHC8)
heat gun to warm the piston to allow the pin to press in by hand
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJXc2RZw/IMG-5929.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJXc2RZw)
One of the hollow pins went missing, made a new one on the lathe out of stainless rod
New base gaskets and slide the cylinders over the pistons
My old ring compressor I bought a long time ago off Ebay, still works great
(https://i.postimg.cc/MfXBcrFS/IMG-5936.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MfXBcrFS)
Ducati seals the cylinder to head with O rings only, that and the mating flange of the cylinder to head
(https://i.postimg.cc/z3PKm8yX/IMG-5937.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/z3PKm8yX)
heads back on, they will need to be loosened off to get the bevel train back on
(https://i.postimg.cc/N53XMD83/IMG-5938.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N53XMD83)
I have been reading up on how crappy the original Ducati ignition was (is) and the options to replace with a modern electronic ignition, unfortunately none of the options are cheap, I am going to stick with stock for now, the bike did run before I stripped it down, hopefully with the rebuilt carbs, new plugs and high tension leads and the fresh valve job it will be an easy starter......
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I have been reading up on how crappy the original Ducati ignition was (is)
That's where I learned that carburation problems are generally ignition the first time. :grin:
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That's where I learned that carburation problems are generally ignition the first time. :grin:
I just priced out a replacement ignition, by the time I add the new coils its another grand :shocked: Its looking more like the black hole of Ducati every day.
https://www.elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/digital-ignition-zdg-3-23-for-ducati-beveldrive-ducati-electronica-electric-starter.html
I have no experience with this Sachse ignition but I have heard it is good quality. Other than a decent advance curve should I expect to see any other real world improvements?, for instance will it be an easier bike to start, mine is the kick start only model, smoother running etc...????
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I would recommend you replace the standard ignition with Sachse.
I had a brand new GTS in 1978 and one of the memories was that it was very jerky below 2,800, particularly in high gears. In 2013 I rebuild another GTS pretty much from scrap and I used a Sachse system. I could not believe how smoothly it ran, even with 35 year old carburetors. It comes with a control box which I mounted under the tank. There's a number of preset ignition curves available, but I never even tried changing from the recommended one as the bike ran so well.
It was a little fiddly to set up as it involved working in the dark, but I never touched it again.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49204289176_ccb3aeb45c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hY1QVo)DSC_0224 (https://flic.kr/p/2hY1QVo) by Derek Wardell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154993838@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49204362291_3a9f8d0800_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hY2dDZ)DSC_0234 (https://flic.kr/p/2hY2dDZ) by Derek Wardell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154993838@N08/), on Flickr
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I would recommend you replace the standard ignition with Sachse.
I had a brand new GTS in 1978 and one of the memories was that it was very jerky below 2,800, particularly in high gears. In 2013 I rebuild another GTS pretty much from scrap and I used a Sachse system. I could not believe how smoothly it ran, even with 35 year old carburetors. It comes with a control box which I mounted under the tank. There's a number of preset ignition curves available, but I never even tried changing from the recommended one as the bike ran so well.
It was a little fiddly to set up as it involved working in the dark, but I never touched it again.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49204289176_ccb3aeb45c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hY1QVo)DSC_0224 (https://flic.kr/p/2hY1QVo) by Derek Wardell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154993838@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49204362291_3a9f8d0800_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hY2dDZ)DSC_0234 (https://flic.kr/p/2hY2dDZ) by Derek Wardell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154993838@N08/), on Flickr
Thanks for the advice! I am going to order the Sasche kit.
What did you do with the engine stop switch, did you wire it up to act as regular battery / coil ignition bike kill switch?
I have read it is hard to get the original gear and flywheel off, did you have to use the factory three leg puler?
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I had no wiring loom so I had to start from scratch. So all that gubbins in the headlight wasn't used in my case. Make sure you get the right kit from Sachse. From memory there are different ones for kickstart and electric start and then there's a 3rd type for the Darmah engine to replace the Bosch system.
I had 2 engines. One of which gave up the primary gear very easily with a puller. On the one below I had to have it cut off, but it had been open to the elements for 13 years! Good luck!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49204469471_61ddf28df3_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hY2LvV)DSC_0044 (https://flic.kr/p/2hY2LvV) by Derek Wardell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154993838@N08/), on Flickr
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I am waiting for the new bevel gear set to come from California and decided to check the cam support bearings more carefully, two have a slight nick in them, hardly there but enough to warrant replacement, new ones are under $9.00 each, six new ones picked up and fitted.
The nicked bearings come out of the top cylinder, same one with the chipped gear, chicken or egg question or are both the worn bearings and chipped gear a sign of the same problem? I wonder if the cam lubrication, especially on the top cylinder prone to weak oil pressure?
A few little rubber bits to attend to, cover boot for the front brake pressure switch
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYzcmc5c/IMG-5951.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmKFnjqp)
Rubber bushings around the brake line fitting where the hose passes through the fender bracket
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBRcpycK/IMG-5953.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcRF3r5V)
Steve Allan had a complete original horn relay with the attached signal light flasher, little steel clip fits over a steel tab attached to the headlight bucket
All the bucket wiring is done
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mn0nGSpB/IMG-5956.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mn0nGSpB)
headlight relay
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rq86sdYW/IMG-5957.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Rq86sdYW)
stop switch
and the headlight ring and lamp fitted
(https://i.postimg.cc/hzvvMQb8/IMG-5959.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hzvvMQb8)
I ordered a gel battery sized to fit the original rubber battery tray, hopefully all the new electronics work, fingers crossed.
spent a couple hours sanding the nicks out of the cast alloy engine case side covers today, now to polish them up, knocking off a few more jobs one at a time....
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Beautiful work. Thanks for posting all the pictures and details.
But what we really want to know is what kind of motor oil is best for your “new” bike?
:grin:
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But what we really want to know is what kind of motor oil is best for your “new” bike?
:grin:
Engine oil?? I am still looking for the transmission and rear drive fill plug :wink:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SXZHLnKp/IMG-3088.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXZHLnKp)
Finished cleaning up the engine side case covers, lots of dings and scratches, some deeper than others, as delivered, not too bad at all
(https://i.postimg.cc/6yn3HXRP/IMG-5980.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6yn3HXRP)
Polishing alone got them to look like this, no matter how much polishing these deep gouges will not come out
I sanded them down with an air sander, random orbital foam pad, begin with 150 grit and sand out the dings and scratches
The sanding scratches are to be expected with 150 but it makes the job so much easier to begin with a course grit
Then go over it all again with 250 grit
I then vapour blasted them to hone the surface, if I did not have a vapour blaster I would do a final 400 grit sand
On to the rouge polish on the buffing wheel
Right side finished, left just vapour blasted
(https://i.postimg.cc/TKcP6Jtq/IMG-5995.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TKcP6Jtq)
This is after about six hours of sanding and polishing
(https://i.postimg.cc/jnzbhR9Q/IMG-6008.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnzbhR9Q)
I don't want it to shine as bright as chrome, I bet these are already much brighter than the day they left the factory
45 years of rock dings and corrosion sanded and polished away
(https://i.postimg.cc/w3Jgzkvy/IMG-6009.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3Jgzkvy)
While I had the covers off I stripped the gear selector mechanism, as expected pretty dirty, nothing bent or broken, just a clean and lube and it rotates nicely
(https://i.postimg.cc/f3rDz2mX/IMG-6004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3rDz2mX)
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Oh wow, nice! I need to do my 750GT covers like that.
Too bad I don't have a vapor blaster.
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Oh wow, nice! I need to do my 750GT covers like that.
Too bad I don't have a vapor blaster.
You don't really *need* one. Just continue sanding with 400 paper before buffing. The vapor hone just speeds up the process. Until you do the labor to get rid of the scratches, polishing just makes shiny scratches. :smiley:
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Oh wow, nice! I need to do my 750GT covers like that.
Too bad I don't have a vapor blaster.
A small electric palm sander with a foam pad will do the job, no need for a vapour blaster, use 150 , 250 and then 400.
Use the 150 grit until the scratch or gouge is removed. It can take a hour to cut out one cover and sand it smooth. There is a lot of aluminum on these covers so you can cut a lot of aluminum off. The finer grit is used to remove the fine scrtaches from the 150 grit. I could have sanded for a couple more hours to get rid of every tiny pit but decided to stop when I did, some pits are just too deep in my opinion to sand all of them out.
Put on some good music in your ear buds and go for it.
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Wow! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I did (years ago) the cases on my C100 stepthrough after the silver paint oxidised the cases badly with graduated wet and dry. Actually did them in a bath of water. Took forever but made it so much easier to keep the motor clean afterwards.
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A small electric palm sander with a foam pad will do the job, no need for a vapour blaster, use 150 , 250 and then 400.
Use the 150 grit until the scratch or gouge is removed. It can take a hour to cut out one cover and sand it smooth. There is a lot of aluminum on these covers so you can cut a lot of aluminum off. The finer grit is used to remove the fine scrtaches from the 150 grit. I could have sanded for a couple more hours to get rid of every tiny pit but decided to stop when I did, some pits are just too deep in my opinion to sand all of them out.
Put on some good music in your ear buds and go for it.
Yes, I've done that process, actually up through 1200 grit. Works great on flat or convex surfaces, but, concave surfaces, and those with features such as the external strengthening ribs on Honda brake drum panels need to be done by hand, which is very time consuming and tedious. The vapor blast would definitely make that process go more quickly.
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One of my hats back in the day was moldmaker. I can tell you a lot about
very time consuming and tedious.
polishing of molds. :smiley:
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Yes, I've done that process, actually up through 1200 grit. Works great on flat or convex surfaces, but, concave surfaces, and those with features such as the external strengthening ribs on Honda brake drum panels need to be done by hand, which is very time consuming and tedious. The vapor blast would definitely make that process go more quickly.
Agreed!, concave, webbed and recessed surfaces are very difficult and time consuming. Vapour blasted surfaces definitely cut down the sanding time, might be worth it to send your Ducati 750 GT engine covers out to be vapour blasted. If you do I would recommend sanding as much as you can prior to vapour blasting.
If you trust the security of the Canadian / American mail system you could send them to me and I would vapour blast them for you, would be happy do clean them up for you.
Cheers
Jim
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Agreed!, concave, webbed and recessed surfaces are very difficult and time consuming. Vapour blasted surfaces definitely cut down the sanding time, might be worth it to send your Ducati 750 GT engine covers out to be vapour blasted. If you do I would recommend sanding as much as you can prior to vapour blasting.
If you trust the security of the Canadian / American mail system you could send them to me and I would vapour blast them for you, would be happy do clean them up for you.
Cheers
Jim
I appreciate the offer, Jim, but, you make a very good point about trusting the mail system. I don't even want to know what a set of cases for a round case bevel twin cost to replace. I'm more inclined to find someone local I can drive them to. They actually look OK as they are, but, someday, I'd like to polish them. They currently have sort of a brush finish. Before I take the time to polish them, I need to find the oil leak that it's got, and fix that.
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I appreciate the offer, Jim, but, you make a very good point about trusting the mail system. I don't even want to know what a set of cases for a round case bevel twin cost to replace. I'm more inclined to find someone local I can drive them to. They actually look OK as they are, but, someday, I'd like to polish them. They currently have sort of a brush finish. Before I take the time to polish them, I need to find the oil leak that it's got, and fix that.
I know I wouldn't trust mailing those 750 GT engine case covers, replacing them would be very, very pricey!
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I got the lump back into the chassis, tilted the engine to get the lower rear mount bolt in then lifted the engine by the front to get the front bolt through, damn heavy lump it is!
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0YYdnzW/IMG-6060.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rRxJq6xc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMvtVH4F/IMG-6063.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jCpBzGG)
Cables, levers, pedals etc going back on
(https://i.postimg.cc/661HP69q/IMG-6130.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8sMBJSfg)
seems like everything is fitting like it should, I am looking at old magazine articles, google etc to try and figure out how all the cables and electrical are supposed to be routed
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hpnZ66N/IMG-6138.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rRNrhq5d)
Lots of fettling to do and to hang the exhaust as well
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q2Nd8mY/IMG-6151.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YhX3kxmv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LDXzfNs/IMG-6134.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmGDbV4z)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNVXd2V2/IMG-6143.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dhxTNHZ9)
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Looking amazing!!! Huge milestone
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Very nice job indeed -- looks better than new!
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Thank you for taking us to the Dark Side. As usual, very nice work Jim. :thumb:
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I can’t wait until you get this beast up, running, and on the road. These Ducatis are just super cool.
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I can’t wait until you get this beast up, running, and on the road. These Ducatis are just super cool.
Me too! really looking forward to experiencing the bevel, twin, the wide tall handlebars of the 860 GT suits an old bugger such as myself just fine. It has decent brakes, enough power and is fairly light. Hopefully when I install the new Sasche electronic ignition it will be an easy starter and wont kick back.
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You'll love it. The perfect smoothness and linear power from the engine is fantastic. The downside is that they are an absolute money pit to rebuild and maintain - but you already know that.
Best day out for me was 200 miles down the Mull of Kintyre from Inverary to Campbeltown and back. Out on my GTS and back on my mate's GT. Marvelous!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4174/34569721571_d492e074e9_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UENRQg)DSC_1847 (https://flic.kr/p/UENRQg) by Derek Wardell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154993838@N08/), on Flickr
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You'll love it. The perfect smoothness and linear power from the engine is fantastic. The downside is that they are an absolute money pit to rebuild and maintain - but you already know that.
Looking forward to a rewarding ride, It has become a bit of a money pit but no worse than the Morini 500 that kept sucking $$$ out of my wallet.
I got the exhaust on today, original headers and cross over re=chromed and Charlie put me on to a pair of very nice used mufflers a friend of his was selling, the mufflers are in unbelievable original condition.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qR7NP0JB/IMG-6159.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QBRN72Kv)
LaFranconi mufflers
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5BzKNnW/IMG-6161.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XBWVH988)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tY8PTXG/IMG-6162.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8GLxXkt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tgHKjMk/IMG-6160.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2qq8Vky4)
I hooked up the battery with an inline 30 amp fuse between the battery and fuse box
Surprisingly most things work!
The headlight high and low beam, tail light, brake light, instrument lights, idiot lights and signal lights all work, I have short in the horn relay or horn City / Country circuit plug in the horn and the fuse blows and when I plug the red wire from the stator into the regulator / rectifier a fuse blows, maybe a short in the stator or in the ref/rec???
There is a local fellow who advertises rewinding motorcycle stators, I think I will take the stator to him to check it out and if need be rewind it.
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It’s looking great and it’ll be terrific to read of it running soon.
The seamed LaFranconi silencers are relatively easy to find in NOS condition. Almost everybody took them off and some SSs of the era came with a set of Contis in the crate to replace them. I used to have two pairs but used one set on a late Darmah - Contis were too loud for that bike and I liked them a bit better than the huge Silentiums.
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It’s looking great and it’ll be terrific to read of it running soon.
The seamed LaFranconi silencers are relatively easy to find in NOS condition. Almost everybody took them off and some SSs of the era came with a set of Contis in the crate to replace them. I used to have two pairs but used one set on a late Darmah - Contis were too loud for that bike and I liked them a bit better than the huge Silentiums.
The bike came with Contis but I found them tp be pretty loud! I don't mind the look of the seamed LaFranconi's and if I find them too tame I can put the Contis back on.
A little detail came in the mail today from Phil Hitchcock's Road and Race shop in Australia, a foil decal for under seat, real nice reproduction
http://roadandrace.com.au/cat06.htm
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h7BvNk4/IMG-6164.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnx6PP23)
Almost there for the Vintage bike display in the International Motorcycle Show when it come to town in a couple weeks
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ghw7F6Fm/IMG-6165.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/grsHdStC)
The electronic ignition kit also came in the mail from Back to Classics in the Netherlands, for the kick start only models
https://www.ducaticlassics.com/ducati/079446100/electronic-ignition-system
I was going to hold off until after the bike show but I think I will go ahead and install the kit and new Dyna mini coils. Looks easy enough to install but the clutch has to come off and the old rotor and ignition.
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We'll need you to start another project when this is done. I love watching the progress!
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I farted around with getting the horn to work for a couple days, very frustrating. I had bought a new horn off Ebay, just like the original... The problem is when I touched an ohm meter across one of the lugs to the body I get continuity so as soon as I mounted the horn and turned on the ignition it went off. I tested several of the horns on other bikes and same thing. Then I dug into a junk box and found an old similar horn, and this one had no continuity between the wire lugs and the body, works perfect.
The Ducati horn button connects a ground lead completing the circuit. The hot lead is shared with the two brake light switches. Each brake light switch completes a ground when activated by pedal or lever. So the Ducati horn needs to have a ground isolated from the body.
I had no idea there were differences in the horn make-up though they look the same. :huh:
I took the stator to a rewind specialist yesterday along with two Moto Morini stators to check out, the Ducati tested fine, but the three wire harness had a broken wire inside it, simple fix making a new three wire lead and soldering it to the stator, no more blown fuses when I hooked it back up.
The good news is all of the electrical is now sorted out.
Opened up the new electronic ignition I got in the mail this week from a dealer in Europe, ... it's for a Ducati 750GT, :thewife: I will send it back for an exchange, not a big deal, just a little bit of an inconvenience.
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Opened up the new electronic ignition I got in the mail this week from a dealer in Europe, ... it's for a Ducati 750GT, :thewife: I will send it back for an exchange, not a big deal, just a little bit of an inconvenience.
Didn't you have a 750GT project waiting in the wings that you might want to keep that for?
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Didn't you have a 750GT project waiting in the wings that you might want to keep that for?
I had a deal to trade my 1978 Moto Morini 500 for a 1973 Ducati 750 GT but I had to get the Morini cylinder liners repalced beore I could complete the trade. Unfortunatley I could not get the cylinders finished before I left for Europe last fall. When I got back in November I finished the Morini ready to make the trade and then the fellow with the Ducati emailed me to say he had sold it on with another Ducati he had to some other fellow. I was very disappointed. AT least I have a very nice Moto Morini 500 with a great motor. Over Christmas I was talking to a local guy that has a 72 Ducati 750 GT and he let on he has a basket case with a spare motor that he may be wiling to sell. I think I will eventually fond one to rebuild.
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Some final detail jobs today, finished the electrical so I fit the repro fuse box cover, it is a very tight fit!
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZhNhYPF/IMG-6177.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nMG3mqt4)
The original tool tray was all scuffed up, I cleaned it and then hit it with brake cleaner to get it real clean but the cleaner actually melted the plastic surface, I got some clean black rags and sprayed / wiped down the tray until the finish was uniform, looks 'almost' new. The fuse box will only fit one direction and the hole in the tray is to allow the fuse box lid wing nut to clear, trouble is its not in the right place, so I marked the wing nut location and drilled a new hole through the tray. If the fuse box were rotated 180 degrees the wing nut would match the original hole, leads me to believe the fuse box lid I found was not correct for this bike.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgCZ5gdN/IMG-6176.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/svnK6yx1)
Installed the petcocks and the fuel lines, while I was back around the carbs I installed new jets, fuel valve seat and needle and new accelerator jets
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTM9Vk8K/IMG-6181.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/S2TJ0ZML)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhGVrs6h/IMG-6180.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N5GpkLgW)
Fit a used fuel cap I had, the original one stuck closed when I installed it, had to carefully pry it off
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBX2TJjH/IMG-6184.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9z0DPj6L)
The finishing touch a new Ducati key fob Charlie sent me!
(https://i.postimg.cc/t476Why9/IMG-6187.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DSkmK48N)
One job left is to fill the front master cylinder reservoir and bleed the brakes, then its just wipe it down and take it to the International Motorcycle Show when it comes to town in a couple weeks.
Its been fun, I will install the Sasche ignition when the correct unit comes in and then it should be road ready for an inspection in the spring.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjNZRSrd/IMG-6179.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5YqSwWD4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2ZWJjFW/IMG-6188.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LLjsCmm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9NLMRNz/IMG-6185.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBR5LrMW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1mtzDLs/IMG-6186.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mhPrzy9q)
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Bravo! Another fine thread on a fantastic bike rebuild. Cannot wait for the next project.
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One last tidbit, I finished bleeding the brakes and fitting the last decals on the forks, then lifted the bike up from my shop overhead crane. I rigged up a digital scale to the hoist, the dry weight of the bike, no fuel in the gas tank, no oil in the crankcase but it does have a battery installed.
459.5 pounds
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGHWft5M/IMG-6210-Copy.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/64d7QqRF)
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One last tidbit, I finished bleeding the brakes and fitting the last decals on the forks, then lifted the bike up from my shop overhead crane. I rigged up a digital scale to the hoist, the dry weight of the bike, no fuel in the gas tank, no oil in the crankcase but it does have a battery installed.
459.5 pounds
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGHWft5M/IMG-6210-Copy.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/64d7QqRF)
I wish everyone who talked about the weight of their bike had one of those scale rigs. It would save a lot of nonsense talk, requoting of urban legends, and argument!!
Lannis
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I wish everyone who talked about the weight of their bike had one of those scale rigs. It would save a lot of nonsense talk, requoting of urban legends, and argument!!
Lannis
Indeed|!
Most specs on-line claim the wet weight of the 860 GT is 504 lbs. The gas tank is 5.2 gallons, I assume they mean imperial gallons ?- 7.2 lbs per imperial gallon that equates to 37 lbs, add in the 5 liters of oil and that combined with the 459.5 dry weight is pretty close to advertised wet weight On the other hand most specs claim the dry weight of the 860 GT as 408 lbs, but I think they would subtract the battery and the fork oil as well, still no way that would reduce the true 459.5 lbs down to 408 lbs.
My 1978 Moto Morini 500 weighed in at 369.5 lbs, no fuel, no battery but a full crank case of oil, the advertised dry weight in Moto Morini literature is 368 lbs, pretty close to actual!
Over the winter I am going t weigh all of my bikes just to see how accurate the factory specs are.
Now what would be real interesting is to see what real dyno specs are compared to the published factory numbers, I bet the actual is around 15 ~ 20% less than the lofty values the factory claimed.
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750 GT 472.5 with full fuel & oil.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBMBSx1Y/P1030211.jpg)
.
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Now what would be real interesting is to see what real dyno specs are compared to the published factory numbers, I bet the actual is around 15 ~ 20% less than the lofty values the factory claimed.
The "real" dyno specs will be from the back wheel.
Some factories either took the dyno values or extrapolated the values from the crankshaft.
I think Kawasaki used to take them from the piston crown .... :shocked:
Lannis
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All run off the same dyno:
(http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Beezumph%20triples/tridentdyno1.jpg)
(http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Beezumph%20triples/tridentdyno2.jpg)
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All run off the same dyno:
(http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Beezumph%20triples/tridentdyno1.jpg)
(http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Beezumph%20triples/tridentdyno2.jpg)
Those are all believable.
UNlike the manufacturers published HP/Torque figures for those bikes!
Lannis
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nice data , i once had a V7sport dynoed , it just about reached 50 HP,
looks in line with these results.
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nice data , i once had a V7sport dynoed , it just about reached 50 HP,
looks in line with these results.
Kinda makes you wonder how now everyone calls bikes with under 95 HP underpowerd. :)
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Kinda makes you wonder how now everyone calls bikes with under 95 HP underpowerd. :)
Most common disease out there in moto-world. Someone's saying "Yeah, I put a chip and some slip-ons on it, it's pulling about 160 HP I reckon, but I need about 10-15 more horsepower, yep, that's right, not quite fast enough ...."
when what really is happening is they've got a bike that the factory "tested" at 130 HP, it was actually making 110, and after the owner modified it, it's making about 90 ....
Lannis
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I was surprised by the torque figures for the Kawasaki 750 Mach lV compared to the Kaw 903.
My misperceptions about 2 strokes I guess.
Kawasaki sure had some bases covered in this performance area!
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Most common disease out there in moto-world. Someone's saying "Yeah, I put a chip and some slip-ons on it, it's pulling about 160 HP I reckon, but I need about 10-15 more horsepower, yep, that's right, not quite fast enough ...."
when what really is happening is they've got a bike that the factory "tested" at 130 HP, it was actually making 110, and after the owner modified it, it's making about 90 ....
Lannis
LOL! Yup thats about it. Back in my hot rod days we had a list of HP increases for the guys like that.. "Ohhhhh chrome valve covers!! Thats good for 15 extra HP!!!"
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Nice to see these old dyno graphs ....the Z1 seems a bit short as 52 plus ft lbs was the norm at the time, about the same as the 750 cept it started much earlier .roll ons in 5th from 2500rpm were possible with a 903 , the 750 not so much :sad:
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WOW Jim, what a difference between the old and the new. :thumb:
A beautiful piece of work. I am in awe of how you achieve such beautiful results with often just common sense down to earth methods.
Between you and Chuck, I have learned heaps. Thanks.
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Thanks Muzz!
I have put the Ducati in the vintage bike show at the International Motorcycle Show as it comes through town this weekend. Coldest week of the year, not fun to move bikes when its been -35C and then add in the windchill, BRRRRRR.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFVJLRsL/IMG-6243.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vxrLNg6d)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdw3m3cf/IMG-6242.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8jGbrHqk)
We have been allotted enough floor space to display 22 motorcycles. I organize the little display and our only criteria is hte bike has not been shown at this event in the past 5 years, I am always amazed at what shows up. The beautiful little cycle next to the Ducati is a Jawa - a 1957 'Pionyr' - 50cc two stroke 3 speed.
This green bike is a 1957 DKW RT 250 VS, found on a farm in northern Alberta with original owners and shop manual, the owner was a farmer who had John Deer equipment, the bike was originally black but the farmer had some green paint on hand.... The Auto-Union 4 rings are stamped on many of the bolt heads, it runs like a charm
(https://i.postimg.cc/VND3mrC0/IMG-6251.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/94wxBf1c)
One of our local CVMG members family were a Honda dealer in 1964, his father owned a farm implement dealership in a small town in Manitoba, one day his dad returned from Winnipeg with a big crate in the back of his one ton pick up - HONDA stamped on the side and inside - 3 Honda Cubs. This bike is one of the original three and still owned by Sam, the original owner, 16 years of age back in 1964.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRZCvyKN/IMG-6255.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWKHkqYD)
a rare 1979 Ducati Regolarita - 125cc Two Stroke - 6 speed, found with another one in a shed in southern Alberta, needed a total rebuild, next to it a 1974 KZ400 - found two blocks from the new owners home, sitting in a garage under a cover for over 30 years!
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrPFzS97/IMG-6246.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3025fBBJ)
A real nice 1977 Bonneville and behind it a gem of a 1969 BSA Thunderbolt, both nut and bolt restorations
(https://i.postimg.cc/43QXtxhX/IMG-6248.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QBVLZsbz)
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Great to see such interest in the vintage bikes in Edmonton , love that little twinjet ...brings back some great memories
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Great to see such interest in the vintage bikes in Edmonton , love that little twinjet ...brings back some great memories
We have seven months of winter ..... if you love motorcycles and live up here then restorations and fiddling is one way to keep the passion alive while the roads are covered in ice and snow.
The Twinjet is a 1969 model, all original. Not in the pictures is a 1964 Honda CL78 - a Canadian model 305 Dream, it has 2.2 original miles. It was bought new in Edmonton from Scona Cycle, the owner took it home and promptly dropped it on his first ride. The Dream then stayed in the original owners garage for nearly twenty years. The Dream was then returned to the original dealership where it sat on display until last fall when the dealership was sold and the large collection of mint Honda's went up for sale.
Similar story with this pretty 1971 Yamaha GS7- under 900 original miles, sat in a local motorcycle shop for a very long time until the dealership changed hands and the new owners didn't have any love for old motorcycles. Next to it is a 1966 Suzuki K-15-80 - under 100 original miles, sad story it was bought by a young man who left for Vietnam and did not return, his family kept the bike in their New York state home until it was sold a couple years ago.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y90T9r6n/IMG-6253.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgR02dSf)
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canuck750......the 300 dream :grin: i had a friend that had a red one new , i remember racing him on my Twin jet and i won in a sprint ...
So many small Japenese bikes i should have kept...
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Beautiful work Jim :thumb:. I know a bike that's aching for that treatment. :boozing: :boozing:
Nick
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Restoring an odd bike is one thing, fettling the faults is an all together different adventure. I 'finished' the rebuild in time for the January 2020 International Motorcycle Show and have spent a lot of the past month sorting out a bunch of small issues with the Ducati in preparation for a mechanical inspection and registration to get it onto the road this spring.
After I fitted a new Sache electronic ignition the big twin fired up after tow kicks and once warmed up and the idle adjusted it ran quite well. Over the next couple days I found several annoying oil leaks from the top end, both heads had slow drips from joint surfaces in the bevel bear cluster housings. The only way to fix the leaks is to drop the motor and tear apart the heads, frustrating. At least the engine drops straight down with only having to remove three long bolts, remove the drive chain, exhaust headers, carbs and the breather hose.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yd9dQCM9/70-B871-F8-36-BE-4-E9-C-8-C56-DEB741-A2-A84-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VrfmvpLL)
I can say from experience with Moto Guzzi big twins the Guzzi is not know for oil leaks, the Ducati has a lot of joint surfaces to seal
I decided to break down the heads, lean all mating surfaces and add a thin wipe of RVT sealant between the paper gaskets and alloy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gk40BDTM/AFF9-A194-4153-464-F-B221-CDC6-C0-D4-E971.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXLsjxsD)
I did manage to get the motor out, the heads re-sealed and all back in the frame in about 6 hours.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dC4hFY3/BE874542-4-C4-E-4-D72-A0-C7-64888-B1-FF16-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkRVw5yr)
Other niggles, the charging system doesn't, Bevel Heaven now sells a universal solid state reg/rec for around $100 and I found a NOS stator / alternator for $240
One of the front calipers is weeping and so on it goes.
This seems to be par for the course in my experience with putting these old lumps back together.
How do others fair with sorting out the little things of fresh restorations ?
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With my 750 GT it took about a year an 1/2 to get it all sorted. The Dyna S failed, the ST2 stator failed, the regulator failed the battery failed, oil leaks mainly from porous castings, front hub had a defugalty that caused brake rotor wobble. So yes, I feel your pain.
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With my 750 GT it took about a year an 1/2 to get it all sorted. The Dyna S failed, the ST2 stator failed, the regulator failed the battery failed, oil leaks mainly from porous castings, front hub had a defugalty that caused brake rotor wobble. So yes, I feel your pain.
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Thanks George!
It can get discouraging at times but I will get to the end of this one too, I think …... :cry:
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Those dyno tests above are from a comparison road test done by Cycle magazine in 1973. Most of the bikes were tuned by factory mechanics but still stock. So the bikes sold off the showroom floor may have had less power.
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Pardon me for coming late to the party, but just looked at those charts. Total surprise to me. The oil burner leads the pack, nearly identical power and more torque than the legendary 900. The Rocket 3 bested the Honda 750, what's up with that. I was a teen when these bikes ruled and was just as excited as anyone to read the mags about the latest, greatest speed burner. We all just knew the 750 Kawi was death on two wheels. I was pulling for the Triumph/BSA (because Triumph was just so cool) to be faster than the Honda and that they would somehow make a comeback in the market. It blows me away that the vaunted Honda 750 barely made 50 HP.
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Beautiful bike. I’ve really enjoyed this thread. Thanks for all the photos.
I’m surprised at how heavy this thing is. But, scales don’t lie.
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Thanks George!
It can get discouraging at times but I will get to the end of this one too, I think …... :cry:
You have done a spectacular job of this, dont get disheartened. Most old bike builds take some de-bugging. I'm still making minor changes and additions to my Vincent, but I have over 4000 miles on it.
I have just picked up on this post after several months away. Did your engine recon man put new bronze seats in the heads, or did he fit good quality ferrous seats?
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You have done a spectacular job of this, dont get disheartened. Most old bike builds take some de-bugging. I'm still making minor changes and additions to my Vincent, but I have over 4000 miles on it.
I have just picked up on this post after several months away. Did your engine recon man put new bronze seats in the heads, or did he fit good quality ferrous seats?
Thanks for this, I am not sure what the new seat material is that the machine shop installed. The shop I have used for many years sent the heads off to another specialty shop they use for the seats, my machinist is a long time flat track and moto cross racer and he told me that installing the seats was beyond his comfort zone. When I picked up the heads he told me he would honor his quoted fee even though there were several hundred dollars more spent, I couldn't accept him eating the fee for what he could not have foreseen but I was impressed that he would even offer to have absorbed the additional cost, some guys are fantastic.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0CVNHsW/IMG-5905.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TymC1hW9)
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Thanks for this, I am not sure what the new seat material is that the machine shop installed. The shop I have used for many years sent the heads off to another specialty shop they use for the seats, my machinist is a long time flat track and moto cross racer and he told me that installing the seats was beyond his comfort zone. When I picked up the heads he told me he would honor his quoted fee even though there were several hundred dollars more spent, I couldn't accept him eating the fee for what he could not have foreseen but I was impressed that he would even offer to have absorbed the additional cost, some guys are fantastic.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0CVNHsW/IMG-5905.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TymC1hW9)
That is unfortunate, they have perpetuated the problem. I asked because I could see in your "before" photos the yellow of the bronze seats. Sadly, the machinist has replaced them with more of the same. Bronze seats are too soft and the valves pound into them, even with spring return Ducatis, desmos are worse. It is a curse in old British bikes too, even Vincents, but most Vincent owners expect to have modern ferrous seats fitted.
It was magnanimous of your machinist to stick to his quote and generous of you make up the difference, well done.
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I chased a Brembo caliper weeping this morning, the small O ring that seals the two caliper halves refused to form a seal. I sanded the faces smooth on a flat plate, still leaked. Brand new Brembo O ring and caliper seals, I found a fatter viton O ring and fitted it, problem solved. Then after it was all back together my ham fisted turning of a 1/4" wrench snapped the speed bleeder off, damn! could not get the remnant out as the recessed sprung ball bearing prevented getting any easy out in and a milling bit just spins the hard ball. The speed bleeders have a very thin wall to the body and it takes nothing to snap them. Luckily Charlie send me four left hand calipers to rebuild and I made use of the best one to replace the one I junked.
Two steps forward and one step back. :wink:
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:thumb:
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That is unfortunate, they have perpetuated the problem. I asked because I could see in your "before" photos the yellow of the bronze seats. Sadly, the machinist has replaced them with more of the same. Bronze seats are too soft and the valves pound into them, even with spring return Ducatis, desmos are worse. It is a curse in old British bikes too, even Vincents, but most Vincent owners expect to have modern ferrous seats fitted.
It was magnanimous of your machinist to stick to his quote and generous of you make up the difference, well done.
Most likely beryllium - copper seats. When Guy Martin in Montreal did my 750 GT heads that what he used. WAY harder than bronze alloy seats.
(http://delwestengineering.com/images/pic_beryllium.jpg)
http://www.performanceheadengineering.co.uk/services/valve-services/valve-seat-replacement/
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Ducati Bevel engines are all ball and roller bearing and the oil pump runs at low pressure. Only the Mille engine uses plain bearings and runs at high pressure.
True, but big ends only.
Ciao
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Most likely beryllium - copper seats. When Guy Martin in Montreal did my 750 GT heads that what he used. WAY harder than bronze alloy seats.
(http://delwestengineering.com/images/pic_beryllium.jpg)
http://www.performanceheadengineering.co.uk/services/valve-services/valve-seat-replacement/
berillium bronze isbrilliant stuf for vale seats,
over here (europe) the use of berilium bronze is banned , the dust and fumes it creates when machining it is poisonous (carcinogene)
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Jim, I didn't see it in any of your pics but there is a "chain guide" you can get to keep the chain from sawing into the crankcase. It mounts just in front of the centerstand bolt. Beautiful restoration job...........as always.
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I'm not totally sure but the rubbing block was not added until the shock absorber length increase around 1979/1980 but one could be fitted.
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Its only a couple of M6 threaded holes in the lower frame plate to add one.
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I'm not totally sure but the rubbing block was not added until the shock absorber length increase around 1979/1980 but one could be fitted.
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Its only a couple of M6 threaded holes in the lower frame plate to add one.
Here's the one on my 750 GT w/ 12" shocks. You can just see the Delrin collar I made for the swingarm so it wouldn't get gouged from the chain too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhM6PzrC/bottomchai.jpg)
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I chased a Brembo caliper weeping this morning, the small O ring that seals the two caliper halves refused to form a seal. I sanded the faces smooth on a flat plate, still leaked. Brand new Brembo O ring and caliper seals, I found a fatter viton O ring and fitted it, problem solved. Then after it was all back together my ham fisted turning of a 1/4" wrench snapped the speed bleeder off, damn! could not get the remnant out as the recessed sprung ball bearing prevented getting any easy out in and a milling bit just spins the hard ball. The speed bleeders have a very thin wall to the body and it takes nothing to snap them. Luckily Charlie send me four left hand calipers to rebuild and I made use of the best one to replace the one I junked.
Two steps forward and one step back. :wink:
Viton seals aren't recommended for brake fluid. EPDM (Ethylene Propylene) is though.
https://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Brake%20Fluid#mat
https://www.marcorubber.com/o-ring-material-quick-reference.htm
Ciao
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Jim, I didn't see it in any of your pics but there is a "chain guide" you can get to keep the chain from sawing into the crankcase. It mounts just in front of the centerstand bolt. Beautiful restoration job...........as always.
I got one of those 'case saver' Delrin rub blocks from Bevel Heaven, need to install it.
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I got one of those 'case saver' Delrin rub blocks from Bevel Heaven, need to install it.
That case saver thing something my 750GT needs?
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That case saver thing something my 750GT needs?
Check the Bevel Heaven web site, he recommends them for all bevels. My 860 engine case does show some sign of chain contact, not terrible but it did get munched on.
https://store.bevelheaven.com/Chain-Guard-Case-Saver-etc/
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Check the Bevel Heaven web site, he recommends them for all bevels. My 860 engine case does show some sign of chain contact, not terrible but it did get munched on.
https://store.bevelheaven.com/Chain-Guard-Case-Saver-etc/
I got mine here along with instrument housing, indicator lights and various other bits:
https://tinyurl.com/ycoe7cp2
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Beryllium Bronze! Astounding. I guess it could be adequate for the job, we generally regard Aluminium Bronze as the hard wearing bronze, but Beryllium may do the job. As Huub said, there are over exaggerated health issues around the machining of Be Bronze. American aircraft manufacturers were still using when I was in the industry and we werent allowed to machine it without dressing up in Ebola suits and using vacuum cleaners at the tool tips to catch the swarf. Good luck, I dont expect the engine will do a huge number of miles in reality, it's not like you are going to ride it to the bottom of Chile or anywhere, are you?
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Hi Jim,
I recently acquired a 1975 Ducati 860 GT that I'm in the beginnings of restoring. Mine started life the same color as yours and I am planning to return it to the stock color. I am loving reading the thread about your project and your finished product is awesome!
Do you still have your Duc? I am wondering if you would be willing to share some particulars of your process when I have any questions - every time one question is resolved, another pops up?
Sincerely,
Mark
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Hi Jim,
I recently acquired a 1975 Ducati 860 GT that I'm in the beginnings of restoring. Mine started life the same color as yours and I am planning to return it to the stock color. I am loving reading the thread about your project and your finished product is awesome!
Do you still have your Duc? I am wondering if you would be willing to share some particulars of your process when I have any questions - every time one question is resolved, another pops up?
Sincerely,
Mark
Yep still have the 860, it’s a very nice bike to ride. One of the few ‘affordable’ bevel drive L twins, non desmo heads , first gen are kick start only, sorted a few more things over the past couple years. If replacing the Dellorto carbs stick with the stock 32’s, the 36’s Bevel sheaves sells are set up for a Guzzi twin and are over fueled. Wolfgang Haerter at Columbia Car and Cycle stocks the 32’s or he can properly set up the 36’s as he did for me. The Sasche ignition is well worth the cost.
Feel free to ask questions.
Thanks
Jim