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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: old head on February 12, 2017, 10:00:12 PM
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Been looking for a new one since I lost my frontier in the flood. None of the big three have manuals in their lineups, only automatics.
Frontiers have one, Tacoma only in SR5 mode and the Colorado/Canyon in the base trim only.
Ram has one if you get the Cummins.
Old Head
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They are almost all manuals in Europe. Stop go vehicles is a North American thing.
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Cars are heading that way too. The manufactures are forcing it.
We are selling both our manual transmission TDI's back to VW under the buyback.
Several of the cars we're interested in only have a manual available the base trim level with no options :angry:
Our TDI's are both loaded.
I like the nice features, but, want a manual, in a hatchback, or wagon. That's getting increasingly hard to fine.
We've both always had manuals, and hate automatics. The car market these days is hell for us.
And, no, we don't want to buy older cars just to get the manual.
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Probably easier to convert automatics to self driving .
Dusty
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Costs the manufacturer a LOT to certify each drive line configuration.
Not worth it for the small percentage of manual transmissions that a few customers desire.
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I used to have only manual transmission trucks and cars. Since my creeping leg paralysis I find that I can only drive automatics. Now days it is only automatics with cruise control and hand throttle.
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Subaru still offers the 6-speed manual in the new Impreza. Not relevant to pickups, of course. I suppose a lot of sports cars will continue to offer manuals, but fuel-efficiency standards will put automatics in most cars and trucks.
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As mentioned, the real driver here is fuel economy requirements and the associated competitive pressure. Manual transmissions in future will be only available as a 'luxury' item for sports models; even the base model vehicles will have high-efficiency automatics, many likely CVTs.
I rather suspect that the break will be between cheap cars with CVTs, and more expensive ones with multi-speed (i.e., six or more) automatics (paddle shifters will be a performance option). It is possible that some trucks might end up with paddle shifters to allow over-riding the programmed shift points, for situations like heavy loads, towing, or extended uphill runs.
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Imports (at least those from JAPanInc.) have always limited your choice of options based on models and packages. As such you can't get the high end stuff with manuals much of the time.
That was a piece of my decision making process when I decided to go with a Wrangler last year over a Colorado or Taco.
I really like how some companies (including Jeep and Mini) allow you to really mix and match the options, including the 6-spd gearboxes.
Edit- I'll add that in a pickup or anything with which I might tow extensively I prefer an auto, but that's from having stored a boat for years where I had to backup a steep and narrow incline to place it in storage after each use. I have to go slow when backing a trailer cause I'm just not good at it.
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How many of us learned on a Three on a tree?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ksWKOy665o
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Cars are heading that way too. The manufactures are forcing it.
We are selling both our manual transmission TDI's back to VW under the buyback.
Several of the cars we're interested in only have a manual available the base trim level with no options :angry:
Our TDI's are both loaded.
I like the nice features, but, want a manual, in a hatchback, or wagon. That's getting increasingly hard to fine.
We've both always had manuals, and hate automatics. The car market these days is hell for us.
And, no, we don't want to buy older cars just to get the manual.
I feel your frustration, but the mfg aren't forcing it, the buying public is. The American buyers simply don't want sticks. If they did, the mfg would gladly provide them, all they want to do is sell more units. It's hard to text and steer and shift all at the same time! :sad:
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There was a time not so long ago when stick-shifts were all I'd drive. Even my kids are clutch aficionados. However, I now find that my entire stable have automatics and most likely my next vehicle will, too. Availability is part of why, but there are plenty of reasons this happened:
1) The new automatics are just as efficient at sipping fuel and are often better.
2) My wife and I share our vehicles and she has physical difficulty with a clutch.
3) Paddle shifters are the new way to have greater control for sport driving.
...to name three. As more and more technical innovations show up in vehicles, cars are becoming more appliance-like...safe, comfortable conveyances. I gave up on using 4-wheelers as a way to create my identity long ago. My motorcycles and bicycles do that nowadays.
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How many of us learned on a Three on a tree?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ksWKOy665o
Pinned the tail on one donkey. :thumb:
Maurie.
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You can still get a RAM2500 with a manual and Cummins.
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You can still get a RAM2500 with a manual and Cummins.
Yes, and the least expensive one is over 35 grand from what I see...Diesel option alone is nearly $8000.....
The internet says the 2017 Frontier has manuals available in all models?
I got my license in 64 and have never owned a vehicle with an automatic...But I don't buy new vehicles....
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Gee, you mean all those "manly men" that buy big pickups can't even handle a manual transmission? How they gonna handle a 10 speed Roadranger with no synchromesh?
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Automatics are probably easier on the drive train for most I think.
When a vehicle becomes just a way to get from point to point without the pleasure of driving it or the skill to do it properly there is little point in a manual.
Everything is headed that direction, even motos.
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My question is: When did automatics become less expensive to rebuild than manuals? About 15 years ago, after getting the transmission in one of my vans rebuilt, I noticed that the cost to get a manual transmission rebuilt was much higher. Having rebuilt a 4-speed manual myself, I couldn't imagine an automatic being less labor intensive, but either it is, or it's done so much less often that the rebuild kits and mechanics that know how are more expensive because of that.
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Well, you know, we worried about Convertibles going away forever back in the 70s when (I think) Cadillac and Corvette made their VERY LAST OF THE CONVERTIBLES of all time, and there wouldn't be any more .....
Anything can change.
Lannis
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But how are you going to hold your smart phone, text, fiddle with your navigator, and sip your latte all at once if you also have to deal with a pesky shift lever?
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This is old news.
Full-size pickups have been going automatic for a long time. The development has all been in the heavy-duty automatics because of the increased load carrying ability of the full-size trucks and ever stricter emissions regulations.
The low-end half tons were the last hold-outs, but now that's mostly gone.
The newest automatics in the trucks are very strong. Add to that the fact that they've been electronic for nearly two decades, making it easier for the OEMs to meet the stricter emissions regulations.
I think some of you might be surprised at how many big rigs have also gone automatic over the past decade...
Yes, I'd prefer the manual option, but as was mentioned, going forward that will be reserved for sports cars and specialty vehicles like the Jeeps.
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I just bought my 1st automatic. It is also my 1st 4 dr. A big dog was the driving force. A not new Ford Flex. The last thing I drove this big had a Bull dog on its nose and a 15 speed Triplex. R3~
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Part of the issue is that auto transmissions now get better fuel economy that manuals. Manufacturers like having the better 'CAFE' ratings, so it is harder to get a manual.
I even noticed that Ford and GM are collaborating on a ten speed automatic. That will be close to having a CVT, without the wear problems.
http://www.trucktrend.com/news/163-news121003-gm-ford-to-jointly-develop-10-speed-automatic-for-trucks-suvs/
My question is: When did automatics become less expensive to rebuild than manuals?
I suspect it is a matter of volume. Many auto transmission shops have no clue how to actually rebuild a transmission. What they do is swap in a remanufactured one, and send off your bad one to be remanufactured. If it was a manual, they would have to actually do it right there in the shop. No money to be made doing that.
I still think that it should be illegal to have an auto transmission without a doctors permission. Get more people driving sticks again, and they won't be texting and driving. Maybe they will even put some effort into their driving.
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I recently bought a used VW Jetta with the stock 2.5 and 6 speed automatic. I can say that the transmission makes the car totally enjoyable to drive. When I want the car to move, I mash down on the gas and it goes, right now. If I want to shift into sport it is a quick pull on the shifter.
I like the new transmissions.
I do not miss the manuals.
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Part of the issue is that auto transmissions now get better fuel economy that manuals. Manufacturers like having the better 'CAFE' ratings, so it is harder to get a manual.
I suspect it is a matter of volume. Many auto transmission shops have no clue how to actually rebuild a transmission. What they do is swap in a remanufactured one, and send off your bad one to be remanufactured. If it was a manual, they would have to actually do it right there in the shop. No money to be made doing that.
The Skyactiv automatic in my Mazda 3 is rated at 1 mpg better than the manual. It's also a "sealed unit" with no recommended service interval. Basically if the light comes on you replace it. I've got 125k on it with no issues so far and that includes towing my motorcycles. Fingers crossed.
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I like automatics. I also like being able to select the gear I want sometimes and most of the newer autos allow that as well.
The best automatic I drove was in the wife's Mini Cooper S. Paddle shifters. Was a hoot shifting 'manually' but the auto did a better job than I did, even on very twisty roads. It 'knew' when to downshift to keep the engine in the peak output band (on Sport setting) and had near instant shifts.
Trucks? I'd never get another with a manual. Rebuilds? Autos are simple to rebuild. The big difference is you have to keep them SPOTLESS inside. Getting even a tiny bit of grit in the valve body can be death to the tranny. And autos don't need to be rebuilt as often as a thrashed manual with a clutch. Yes, clutch changes are simple on a RWD vehicle but, still ahve to be done. The auto in my truck has only had fluid changes and it has 106k miles on it, with over 30k of that towing an RV.
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The Allison 6 speed automatic in our '71 Bluebird motorhome is a pretty nice setup. After using it, I doubt I'd opt for a manual in that vehicle. It has a lockup torque converter that's active in gears 3-6, which are the normal road gears. At every shift, it unlocks, shifts, and locks, so the efficiency is very nearly the same as a manual.
I assume that lockup converters are normal items these days, but I don't know if they lock in gears other than high gear.
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Imports (at least those from JAPanInc.) have always limited your choice of options based on models and packages. As such you can't get the high end stuff with manuals much of the time.
One notable exception is the Mazda 3 Hatchback, which has a manual available in all but one mid trim level (of like 5 or 6 available). I'm sure the sedan is the same.
Because of this, the Mazda is at the top of list for my next car.
At the recent car show we were at, the new Civic Hatchback caught our attention, but, again, base trim only, meaning none of the upgrades we want. The soon-to-be released Civic Si is expected to be sedan and coupe only (no hatch), but, the Civic R is to be a hatch (but, also about $10k more than I want to spend).
Frustrated. :sad:
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I feel your frustration, but the mfg aren't forcing it, the buying public is. The American buyers simply don't want sticks. If they did, the mfg would gladly provide them, all they want to do is sell more units. It's hard to text and steer and shift all at the same time! :sad:
By not allowing manuals to be combined with other desirable features, they're trying to push buyer's away from them, so, they can say, "no one bought them, so we stopped offering them."
As for your last comment, maybe automatics should be outlawed, and only manuals offered, you know for safety reasons -- force people to put the damned phone down so they can drive.
Sadly, it'll go the other way. Self-driving cars will be mandated (fist by insurance companies) to protect us from ourselves.
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WRX Jay!
I know the modern autos are "better" than the modern manuals. As a matter of fact I made the decision to risk it with the dated manual in the Wrangler simply because of the fun factor.
Though I will ad that when it comes to foul weather driving I just feel there's a bit more control available with a clutch than a paddle or gear lever shifted auto (gear or CVT). The engagement (or disengagement) of the drive can be feathered as desired with a clutch when sometimes servos are a little harsh.
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WRX Jay!
They don't offer it in a hatchback anymore :-(
After years of wagons and hatches, I don't want to go back to a trunk. Yeah, many have a fold down seat, but, a miserably small opening in the back that you can't fit anything through.
Plus, a WRX is likely to cause 'bad behavior', if you know what I mean. :evil:
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They don't offer it in a hatchback anymore :-(
After years of wagons and hatches, I don't want to go back to a trunk. Yeah, many have a fold down seat, but, a miserably small opening in the back that you can't fit anything through.
Focus RS!!!!
(http://www.dailyxeford.net/data/upload/Ford-Focus-2017-at-chu-bai-cua-Ford-tai-Chau-Au-04.jpg)
:evil: :evil: :evil:
Plus, a WRX is likely to cause 'bad behavior', if you know what I mean. :evil:
WELL, Yeah, I TOTALLY know what you mean... which is a big part of the reason I went with Jeep instead of a WRX or Focus RS.
The MSRPs were within something like $50 between my Wrangler JKU and a Focus RS when I built them both online. :angel:
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The last pick-up I owned in the early 80's was a 1970 Ford XLT Ranger, like this one. It was an 390 cu. in. automatic.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jirH8v/Screen_Shot_2017_02_13_at_9_26_21_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/jirH8v)
It was a good truck but I blew the motor while racing a kid one night in a Camaro, (like the moron that I was back then...), on a surface street in Mesa, AZ!! :shocked: :rolleyes: :laugh: :wink:
You can always buy a restored "vintage" pick-up with a manual... :thumb: :cool:
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I own four vehicles:
2014 Honda Accord
2008 Corvette
2004 Silverado 2500HD Duramax
1999 Isuzu Trooper
Only one has an automatic transmission: The truck has a heavy duty Allison.
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I assume that lockup converters are normal items these days, but I don't know if they lock in gears other than high gear.
Yes. Lockup Torque Converters are the norm.
On GM cars since the THM350-C of 1981. On GM trucks, since the THM700R4 of 1982. Then on to the successor 4L60e and 4L80e transmissions in the 1990s.
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There's no question that automatics (and automated manuals) give more performance and fuel economy vs manuals. The new Camaros and Corvettes have 8 speed manual trannies that shift in a millisecond and are computer controlled to downshift and upshift. They also have manual paddle controls as well. Ferrari doesn't even have a manual option.
An auto might be faster but it's just not as much fun. However, some of these cars are so overpowered that it makes no difference in real time driving situation what transmission is hooked to the engine.
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Yes. Lockup Torque Converters are the norm.
Yes, I assumed that, but wonder if they lock in each gear, or just high, or something in between. My Dodge van auto lock in high only, but it was made in '84.
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After driving a chevy pickup with a straight six stovebolt, and four speed on the floor "granny gear" transmission for many years, I appreciate a standard transmission in a pickup, but then again, many trucks these days are used as a family car, as opposed to a work truck..... at least here in Arizona they are. I used to have fun jerking tree stumps out of my yard with that old pickup!!
Rick.
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My 05 Ram 1500 has a 6 sp manual with the V6 engine, believe it's the same drivetrain as Kev's Jeep.
115k miles of hard use, it's a work truck gets loaded heavy, pulls trailers but everything has held up fine. Clutch almost like new. Ram had a reputation for automatic trans failure in the late 90's didn't they?
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We are selling both our manual transmission TDI's back to VW under the buyback.
Our TDI's are both loaded.
I hope you guys are getting a fair deal on the buy backs Jas.
I also sold my 2014 VW Passat TDI 6 speed manual back to VW as well a couple months ago and got a fantastic deal on the buy back, I was really pleased, got $7.5K more in pocket than I had shelled out on the car initially. I do miss the buttery smooth shifting, 45 mpg, sleek dark blue Passat...but there is still the 6 speed 2009 911 for fun. For a few recent years, Porsche was also only making PDK's, but the client base did push hard and they brought back the manual in a 7 speed, so that's obtainable again.
Quite honestly, driving a PDK or similar paddle shifting car is boring, especially if you enjoy the engagement of driving, unless you have a stop and go 25 mile commute to contend with every day. I'm glad to see that there are still stick shift options on various vehicles.
Enjoy the search...you may find something that is 1 or 2 years old, already has taken the depreciation hit and is a stick...I'd prefer that to buying the car of your dreams but being stuck with a boring automatic., at the very least hopefully it has a Sport option and a Command Shift "manual" automatic option to play with...that's better than nothing!
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I am a sedan driver, and companies that offer manuals do so only on the 4 cyl economy models. For the sporty 6 cyl the only sedan with a manual is BMW, which has been a consistent supporter of them.
I still have my 2006 Mazda sedan in 6 cyl, but it's one of the last years they made that combo. When this gets old I'll probably switch to BMW, but not without complaints.
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It is what it is boys/girls(though I still wonder how many girls are here). Be glad you lived when you did, in 50 years your kids and grand kids will only drive vehicles in vertical reality. But I suspect technology, and good old consumer demand will come up with something that might even be more fun than motorcycles!
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My 05 Ram 1500 has a 6 sp manual with the V6 engine, believe it's the same drivetrain as Kev's Jeep.
115k miles of hard use, it's a work truck gets loaded heavy, pulls trailers but everything has held up fine. Clutch almost like new.
Two pretty different engines.
The PowerTech 3.7L V6 engine (as it was called) was phased out and replaced by the Pentastar 3.8L V6 under Daimler stewardship:
PowerTech:
It is a 90° V engine like the V8, with SOHC 2-valve heads. It utilizes a counter-rotating balance shaft mounted between the cylinder banks to deal with vibration problems of the 90-degree V6 design, as well as use a 30-degree split pin crankshaft to fire the cylinders every 120 degrees. Output is 210 hp (160 kW) at 5200 rpm with 235 lb·ft (319 N·m) of torque at 4000 rpm.[2] It has a cast iron engine block and aluminum SOHC cylinder heads. It uses SFI fuel injection, has roller followers, and features fracture-split forged powder metal connecting rods and an assembled reinforced plastic intake manifold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_PowerTech_engine#3.7_EKG
Pentastar V6
The Chrysler Pentastar engine family is a series of aluminium (die-cast cylinder block) dual overhead cam 24-valve 60° V-6 gasoline engines introduced for model-year 2011 Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep vehicles. It's a VVT motor, but still NA and standard injection (not DI) on most applications. It products 285 bhp (213 kW; 289 PS) at 6400 rpm and 260 lb·ft (353 N·m) at 4800 rpm in the Wrangler with a nice flat torque curve that rivals the old 4.0L straight six. It's available in the Ram (and similar model in the Challenger) these days with a version that puts out 305 bhp (227 kW; 309 PS) at 6400 rpm and 269 lb·ft (365 N·m) at 4175 rpm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Pentastar_engine
For the Wrangler in 2012 the Pentastar replaced the old 3.8L 60° pushrod V-6, like it replaced the PowerTech in the ram for 2013.
Here's a dyno chart comparing the 3.6 Pentastar to the 3.8 pushrod motor. I haven't found a comparison to the PowerTech yet, though I've included a similar dyno chart for the same 3.7L used in the Jeep Libby
(http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/features/jeep/1112_4wd_2012_jeep_wrangler_jk_trail_test/33704753+pinline_block/1112-4wd-06+2012-jeep-wrangler-jk-trial-test+dyno-chart.jpg)
(http://www.wkjeeps.com/misc/curve_37.jpg)
Honestly we liked the Pentastar so much in Jenn's Grand Cherokee (WK2) that it I was glad to get one in the Wrangler (JKU).
I also demo'd a Ram 1500 with it and was very impressed.
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Actually, the auto vs. manual question is becoming one of "why"? The automated manuals are so good that it's hard to beat them with a manual. In fact, in some cases the manual hobbles the car... Compare the similar AWD hot hatches the Ford Focus RS and VW Golf R. The Ford has the advantage in power, with 350 HP while the VW has just shy of 300 and weight is similar. With manuals the Ford clearly outdrags the VW, but with the VW's automated manual option it's an even race, and the Ford is only available with a manual.
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/kis2tv/snhvea1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kis2tv)
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I drove manual pick-ups for almost 25 years (1980 F100 and 1988 F250......both with 5sp manual and 4.9ltr straight six motor). Living in mostly urban areas, a stick shift got to be a pain in the.......knee. The F250 was the worst because the clutch was a little heavier than the F100. Still, driving my 2013 F150, I don't miss the manual shifting. Although, when I first got the new truck, I would, on occasion, search for the clutch pedal when coming to a stop.
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(http://thumb.ibb.co/kis2tv/snhvea1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kis2tv)
This reminds me of something that happened with a friend of mine. He had a stroke and lost the use of the his right arm. He saw my F250 in the parking lot of the bowling alley one night and fell in love with it. He asked me if I would sell it to him and I said no way...it still had a lot of miles left on it. So he snickered and said that one day I would come out of the bowling alley and it would be gone. I told him that I wasn't worried about him stealing it as it had a stick shift and he couldn't drive it. We both had a good laugh and the subject never came up again.
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I love my 4X4 95 Nissan in granny gear when pulling up smaller trees.
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Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIMJsqQy4lQ
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If you go back to the times when you could get manuals, the difference is towing capacity. Automatics seem to have much larger capacity and torque.
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Actually, the auto vs. manual question is becoming one of "why"? The automated manuals are so good that it's hard to beat them with a manual. In fact, in some cases the manual hobbles the car... Compare the similar AWD hot hatches the Ford Focus RS and VW Golf R. The Ford has the advantage in power, with 350 HP while the VW has just shy of 300 and weight is similar. With manuals the Ford clearly outdrags the VW, but with the VW's automated manual option it's an even race, and the Ford is only available with a manual.
I'll admit that the R+D put into automatics has put them equal or above manuals in performance. No equal in driving enjoyment, or repair costs. Working on an auto trans is not a cheap prospect.
And another point; I can't believe they allow automatics in car racing now. It used to be part of a racer's skill, in managing the controls to eek out the best performance. Learning heel-toe pedal use, etc.
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Where are you gonna put the stick?
:huh:
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic004/robotic_testing_interior_I_zpsz0phxoy1.jpg)
:rolleyes:
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And another point; I can't believe they allow automatics in car racing now. It used to be part of a racer's skill, in managing the controls to eek out the best performance. Learning heel-toe pedal use, etc.
I think racing should allow technology to evolve and improve. When manuals were faster, they were used. If they can make autos faster, then good for them.
Pro bicycle racing started to see new technology in bike frames decades ago, but it was feared that only teams with huge sponsorship could afford the new stuff, so a rule was made that requires a traditional "diamond" frame. This not only prevented racing from developing new frame technologies, but since it trickles down to amateur racers and touring riders, there is less for everyone.
I do get the same feelings you have at times though. I learned 20 words per minute worth of Morse Code to get my amateur radio license, and it bothers me a little that you don't need to know it at all to get even the highest level license now. Logic tells me not to worry about it. :grin:
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Pro stock drag car... it's a stick shift class, the driver uses the clutch for off the line, not needed for shifting...1500 HP V8 .. Skip ahead a few minutes to avoid the boring burnout....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=932b6aLnerM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=932b6aLnerM)
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That's some pretty wild straight cut gear noise on the slowdown. :laugh:
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I do get the same feelings you have at times though. I learned 20 words per minute worth of Morse Code to get my amateur radio license, and it bothers me a little that you don't need to know it at all to get even the highest level license now. Logic tells me not to worry about it. :grin:
I got my amateur radio license a couple of yrs ago, no Morse code required. The test wasn't a pushover, but not nearly as hard as having to learn code.
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Strangely, I very much enjoyed the learning process with code. First translating each letter, then knowing them automatically, and finally just hearing words forming. One day I was working in the shop listening to a couple guys talking by code, and realized it seemed like I was hearing their voices, rather than beeps.
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Strangely, I very much enjoyed the learning process with code. First translating each letter, then knowing them automatically, and finally just hearing words forming. One day I was working in the shop listening to a couple guys talking by code, and realized it seemed like I was hearing their voices, rather than beeps.
Holy &*%$#, when people start talking in Morse, and you start understanding them like it's conversation, that is a new reality.
Does sound like a good skill. Unfortunately amateur radio is passing away, even the simple voice radio. My local electronic shop recently stopped carrying the kits.
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Holy &*%$#, when people start talking in Morse, and you start understanding them like it's conversation, that is a new reality.
Does sound like a good skill. Unfortunately amateur radio is passing away, even the simple voice radio. My local electronic shop recently stopped carrying the kits.
All it takes is a nice big fat hurricane or earthquake and then you'll see the interest in amateur pick up in that area.
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I don't think that anyone's mentioned the fact that the large majority of folks under 30 have never driven a manual transmission, never learned the process, and have no interest or need to know how to do so now. They're the people buying most new vehicles these days, as old farts like us tend to keep our cars & trucks longer, usually learned to drive in stick shift vehicles, and have a nostalgic "need" to keep that tradition alive.
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I don't think that anyone's mentioned the fact that the large majority of folks under 30 have never driven a manual transmission, never learned the process, and have no interest or need to know how to do so now. They're the people buying most new vehicles these days, as old farts like us tend to keep our cars & trucks longer, usually learned to drive in stick shift vehicles, and have a nostalgic "need" to keep that tradition alive.
Maybe, maybe not.....If you take all the guys here for example, what's the percentage of presently owned manual transmission vehicles , 10 percent?....Of all my friends, old and young, very few own a manual trans.....
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All it takes is a nice big fat hurricane or earthquake and then you'll see the interest in amateur pick up in that area.
HAM radio is still a requirement for the motorcycle marshals who provide support for bike races like the MS150 cycling event from Houston to Austin, not sure about other types of events, but it's pretty cool to see some of the bikes outfitted, many of them look like Iron Butt riders with multiple GPS's, HAM radios etc. Goes to prove that having devices on the bike really isn't as distracting as some think...especially if you are responsible for safety for others while riding at the same time....and some folks struggle with just having a simple GPS as a distraction. :thumb: :thumb:
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Maybe, maybe not.....If you take all the guys here for example, what's the percentage of presently owned manual transmission vehicles , 10 percent?....Of all my friends, old and young, very few own a manual trans.....
I own one of each (VW Eurovan - manual, Mercedes 300CD - automatic) but wish both of them were manual. When it comes time for a replacement for Mercedes I hope to find a 190D with manual. A "grey market" car with wind-up windows, manual heat controls and cloth interior would be even nicer. But if I replace the van with a Sprinter, I'll be stuck with an automatic. :-(
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I still drive a manual, a '14 Audi. Not sure what I'll get next but I still prefer a manual to an automatic.
Though I suspect for off road a good torque converter auto would be best.
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They're nearly all just shiftless pickups now.
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Looks like my historic numbers are 7 autos and 8 manuals, currently 1 and 1.
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My record is spotless, all manuals... I taught a girlfriend how to drive a stick, she left me for a fancy Dan in a sports car. ..I taught my first wife to drive a stick and she's an ex...My current wife came with a manual transmission car... :laugh: On our first date she drove, a piece of junk 4 speed Mercury Granada .. we're going down the expressway at 65 MPH, the steering wheel is vibrating ,the shift lever is vibrating..it drifts to the right, the brakes pull left..a woman who can drive junk is a keeper :grin:
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I've been able to avoid slushboxes for 48 years of owning 2 and 4 wheeled vehicles...I consider myself lucky! :thumb:
Would be sorry to see them phased out...a perfect gear change is one of life's greatest pleasures...
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My record is spotless, all manuals... I taught a girlfriend how to drive a stick, she left me for a fancy Dan in a sports car. ..I taught my first wife to drive a stick and she's an ex...My current wife came with a manual transmission car... :laugh: On our first date she drove, a piece of junk 4 speed Mercury Granada .. we're going down the expressway at 65 MPH, the steering wheel is vibrating ,the shift lever is vibrating..it drifts to the right, the brakes pull left..a woman who can drive junk is a keeper :grin:
Wow, in my very short career selling cars I sold a new 1979 Granada with a 4 speed, only one I ever saw.
Some cars are built to become junkers, the kind that rattle on for years-that was one!
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My record is spotless, all manuals... I taught a girlfriend how to drive a stick, she left me for a fancy Dan in a sports car. ..I taught my first wife to drive a stick and she's an ex...My current wife came with a manual transmission car... :laugh: On our first date she drove, a piece of junk 4 speed Mercury Granada .. we're going down the expressway at 65 MPH, the steering wheel is vibrating ,the shift lever is vibrating..it drifts to the right, the brakes pull left..a woman who can drive junk is a keeper :grin:
He he, when Jenn was learning to drive her family had 2 cars for then already 4 drivers (with another close on her heels).
The cars were an 80's steam-ship of an Oldsmobile Wagon that DRANK precious $$$ of fuel, and a small, cranky, but fuel sipping VW 5-speed. Her mom and her sis couldn't drive the 5-speed, and before her dad would let her take it he took her too the steepest hill in town (complete with multiple stop signs on the way up), parked it and said - "Get to the top and you can borrow the VW."
So when we met a few short years later she had already bought her own $500 car (Ford Festiva I believe, whatever the damn rebadged Daewoo was) and it was a 5-speed.
Her current Grand Cherokee is the only Auto (ohh, unless you count a used VW Cabriolet a business partner's wife sold her on the super cheap) that she's ever owned.
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My first car did not have syncromesh...an old MG. Like my tractor, the old 13 speed Freightliners I drove, or all of the tactical vehicles I operated in the Army, these manuals had their own set of rules. First could only be engaged at a dead stop and rev matching was necessary during gear changes. Compared to those old relics, the new manuals feel like butter.
Time marches on, whether we want it to or not. Those old transmissions were functional and though I was proud of my mastery of them, they were really a pain in the neck. The new manuals are a huge improvement. Perhaps in time we will look upon our modern automatics and CVTs the same way.
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I ditched my last manual stick vehicle (a horrible Renault) after getting stuck in too many stop and go traffic nightmares, with the last one a three hour wait to get across the George Washington bridge into Manhattan. My left leg was near numb when I finally got home.
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Seems to me that I remember driving a Ford cab over propane delivery truck with a dual shift control for each gear. The best I can explain it is that you could upshift and then if you wanted a lower gear than say 3rd you would double clutch it and pull up or push down on a lever on the shifter. It sort of acted like an overdrive in either direction whether up shifting or down shifting which gave you the ability have greater pull when fully loaded. I think that is how it worked. It was back in 74 or 75 I drove that truck so my memory is a bit vague. Does that sound familiar to anyone out there.
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If I had to commute into a "big city" or would regularly be stuck in stop-and-go traffic, then an automatic would be preferable. But, living out in the "country" with little traffic and entertaining roads to drive, I prefer to do my own shifting.
The thing I've always disliked about automatics is the complication - bad enough before electronic controls, but now much worse. Big $$ when something fails. Most folks won't own it long enough for that to be an issue though, for those of us who buy "pre-depreciated" cars it will be. Look on Craigslist sometime and take note of all of the nice cars being sold cheap because of automatic transmission issues.
Back to Guzzi content: although it's an "automatic" (of sorts) a Convert is really not all that much more complicated than a normal Guzzi. All of it is easy to understand and fix, no vacuum or computer controls, just plain old mechanical systems. :azn:
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Wow, in my very short career selling cars I sold a new 1979 Granada with a 4 speed, only one I ever saw.
Some cars are built to become junkers, the kind that rattle on for years-that was one!
that's one ugly car. So ugly I could barely remember it due to selective amnesia.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Ford_Granada_(North-America).jpg/280px-Ford_Granada_(North-America).jpg)
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Would be sorry to see them phased out...a perfect gear change is one of life's greatest pleasures...
I most heartily concur. It's a visceral thing. I don't care how good automatics have become. I know they shift better and faster and I know they're more efficient. I just don't care. There's undeniable pleasure in shifting for myself. I would say that I've never owned an automatic, but my wife's last three have been automatics. I try my best to avoid driving them though.
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I don't think that anyone's mentioned the fact that the large majority of folks under 30 have never driven a manual transmission, never learned the process, and have no interest or need to know how to do so now. They're the people buying most new vehicles these days, as old farts like us tend to keep our cars & trucks longer, usually learned to drive in stick shift vehicles, and have a nostalgic "need" to keep that tradition alive.
How many "folks under 30" are buying new pickups, which cost $40k to $70k ?
The reason pickups have gone auto is different from why small and mid sized cars have gone auto.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
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I like a manual transmission in a truck because I live in the mountains and the long downhill sections are hard on brakes with an automatic , especially with a load .
My niece was up visiting from Southern California when she was about 12 . We were hauling gravel , so when we got to the pit I rolled up the window so the cab would not fill up with dust , and asked her to do hers . She said she had wondered what that little crank handle was for and where the window button was .
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Maybe, maybe not.....If you take all the guys here for example, what's the percentage of presently owned manual transmission vehicles , 10 percent?....Of all my friends, old and young, very few own a manual trans.....
Of all the four-wheeled vehicles I've owned since 1974, including those owned by my wife, only one had an automatic - a 1988 Chevy Astro I bought for towing my race car. Every other one has had a manual. My current 2006 Subaru Baja Turbo has a manual (bought new, most recent purchase of a cage).
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Wow, in my very short career selling cars I sold a new 1979 Granada with a 4 speed, only one I ever saw.
Some cars are built to become junkers, the kind that rattle on for years-that was one!
Wait , you sold a what with a what ???
There is a club with a website that specializes in unloved cars from history . Can't remember the name , anyone know . A 4 speed Grenader would fit right in .
Dusty
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A college room mate had a 68 Rambler American 4-door, bench seats and all but with a 4 on the floor. In the 60s you could get all kind of weird combinations. Back in the late 60s a childhood friend's parents had a completely optioned out Chrysler New Yorker but with a three on the tree. Whatever floats your boat.
GliderJohn
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All it takes is a nice big fat hurricane or earthquake and then you'll see the interest in amateur pick up in that area.
Actually during our latest storm I noticed that the weather service still gets a number of local reports via ham. On the website they list snowfall by town, and much of the info is listed as from ham radio operators.
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My current 2006 Subaru Baja Turbo has a manual (bought new, most recent purchase of a cage).
Damn my new 06 Baja with a manual was 2 vehicles ago (4 if you count all the ones in the household).
Truthfully I kinda miss it. I might still have it if I'd gotten the turbo. But I was in a "try to be more responsible and conservative" phase... That obviously didn't take. [emoji23]
Great vehicle though. Tough as nails and rock solid in foul weather.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170217/a526a0fd087304960e89319a91fa6967.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170217/0f8ff0ea38345d4a0525e41b326234d8.jpg)
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Wait , you sold a what with a what ???
There is a club with a website that specializes in unloved cars from history . Can't remember the name , anyone know . A 4 speed Grenader would fit right in .
Dusty
Funny, te buyer said he wanted a car that would be good for hunting-I showed him the 4 speed and the deal was done.
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I like a manual transmission in a truck because I live in the mountains and the long downhill sections are hard on brakes with an automatic , especially with a load .
My niece was up visiting from Southern California when she was about 12 . We were hauling gravel , so when we got to the pit I rolled up the window so the cab would not fill up with dust , and asked her to do hers . She said she had wondered what that little crank handle was for and where the window button was .
You do know you can downshift with an auto. The newer ones downshift for you too. Unless I am pulling a really heavy load or on a steep grade I dont have to touch the brakes on my truck.
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Seems to me that I remember driving a Ford cab over propane delivery truck with a dual shift control for each gear. The best I can explain it is that you could upshift and then if you wanted a lower gear than say 3rd you would double clutch it and pull up or push down on a lever on the shifter. It sort of acted like an overdrive in either direction whether up shifting or down shifting which gave you the ability have greater pull when fully loaded. I think that is how it worked. It was back in 74 or 75 I drove that truck so my memory is a bit vague. Does that sound familiar to anyone out there.
Two speed rear axle.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170217/0f8ff0ea38345d4a0525e41b326234d8.jpg)
Hey, that's my driveway!
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Actually during our latest storm I noticed that the weather service still gets a number of local reports via ham. On the website they list snowfall by town, and much of the info is listed as from ham radio operators.
My pickup truck still has a two meter radio and CB installed in it. I've never bothered to figure it out and am game to pull it out. It is worth anything? Anyone want it?
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Two speed rear axle.
Maybe not. Could be a 'gear splitter' on the back of the transmission. Our old motorhome had one on the back of a TH350. But, it was an automatic. I could still select each gear in the transmission, then select either high or low on the gear splitter, so a 6 speed setup. Or, if you prefer, an overdrive that could be used in all three gears. Most of the time I left it in low until I got on the highway, then put it in high. But, on that road with the 10% grade I used to drive on, I used it in all gears.
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Could be but the fact its a manual cab over truck I'd put my money on the two speed axle.
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Damn my new 06 Baja with a manual was 2 vehicles ago (4 if you count all the ones in the household).
Truthfully I kinda miss it. I might still have it if I'd gotten the turbo. But I was in a "try to be more responsible and conservative" phase... That obviously didn't take. [emoji23]
Great vehicle though. Tough as nails and rock solid in foul weather.
Here's a shot of mine from a few years back - nothing's changed, though :wink:
(http://people.delphiforums.com/ITSecurity/Baja-at-BigBend1.jpg)
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Here's a shot of mine from a few years back - nothing's changed, though :wink:
(http://people.delphiforums.com/ITSecurity/Baja-at-BigBend1.jpg)
Nice!!!
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So I was having some fun with this today, remembering all my manual transmission "trucks."
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170218/4babf5cd9b2e85ad53276290d2158f4e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170218/e5cf98160c82f58afbd6acda9409480c.jpg)
This was from a Chilton cover photo shoot. This was a RWD when I bought it, but a 4wd a year later. 😎
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170218/079b8f9d10902a93c1e34520874efd3d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170218/129fe6d8b6fc92c831c7ae4a9aaa6083.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170218/58ac068a0a105575d086e90587015dd9.jpg)
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I used to prefer manual tranny vehicles until I got into pulling RV trailers. Then I found out a stick shift tranny is not better, and noticed automatics got the same mpg or better than manuals. :huh: Now all my cars/trucks are automatics and I have no regrets as I've had no more maintenance than with the manuals(actually less). :huh:
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An auto usually will require less maintenance, the basic design is quite clever and similar to the 3 speed hubs on bicycles, and the torque converter takes a lot of the punishment that kills clutches.
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An auto usually will require less maintenance, the basic design is quite clever and similar to the 3 speed hubs on bicycles, and the torque converter takes a lot of the punishment that kills clutches.
That has not been my experience! Regular fluid and filter changes assuming you don't turn it over every couple of years and let it be the next guys problem, rebuilds are vastly more expensive, if they say ZF !@#$ing run away! Even if you go through two clutches over the life of the vehicle and pay someone else to change them I doubt you'll get anywhere near the cost of an auto.
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That has not been my experience! Regular fluid and filter changes assuming you don't turn it over every couple of years and let it be the next guys problem, rebuilds are vastly more expensive, if they say ZF !@#$ing run away! Even if you go through two clutches over the life of the vehicle and pay someone else to change them I doubt you'll get anywhere near the cost of an auto.
My experience too! Autos are $$$. Manuals are old school simple.
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My experience too! Autos are $$$. Manuals are old school simple.
I've had the opposite manual/automatic experience of you guys. Maybe that's because I have pulled trailers that put a burden on stick clutches vs. automatics if the auto. has a tranny cooler like it should. It's kind of the same thing with a Guzzi clutch vs. a wet/multi plate MC clutch. When a Guzzi car type dry clutch goes out it's a major PIA vs. when a wet/plate Jap. bike clutch goes out. To each their own preference.
It does matter how you treat the 2 designs and their quality too. If you get stuck in stop/n go traffic an auto. is by far better.
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Rebuilds more expensive? Not in my experience, and in fact I've rebuilt a few automatics. And usually it's just a dirty valve body causing trouble. Otherwise easy stuff.
I prefer working on manuals but a problem with a manual often ends up being a more involved issue. That all said, I still prefer driving manuals.
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I was "trained" to rebuild Allison AT 540 medium truck auto trannys and GM Turbo 350/400. Along with the Torqueflite and Ford C4-C6 types these old school autos are not difficult...Modern auto 6-10 speeds with electronic interface are more demanding... Some of the new 5 and 6 speed manuals need special tools and the use of a press...Generally the old 3 and 4 speeds require just hand tools, put a press might be necessary..Automati c transmission rebuild/replacement in a newer vehicle can cost north of 3000 bucks....A clutch replacement might cost $1000 in some cars and twice that in a Diesel 4x4 pu truck...
Generally speaking, most won't have transmission problems in a typical time period the vehicle is owned from new... Except for several models know for issues...
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I understand why they stopped putting manuals in trucks. Nobody reads them.
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All of my vehichhillles are autos. Cars,truck ,Honda Gyro,Guzzi Convert. I love them all.
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Generally speaking, most won't have transmission problems in a typical time period the vehicle is owned from new.
I usually keep my cars until about 150k miles. Buy them used. So I'm looking for something easy for my mechanic.
Usually I can keep the orig. clutch beyond 150k miles (except when I was trying to teach a girlfriend to drive a standard, big mistake). My work cars are automatics (not my choice) and they are traded out before the mileage gets too big. Did have a Chev auto transmission fail at 80k miles, but the dealer covered it. Kudos to McLaughlin Chev. of Whitman, Ma. Their service dept. is top notch.
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I usually keep my cars until about 150k miles. Buy them used.
I'm probably the one buying your old cars. I don't consider them "used" until they've got about 150K on them .... :wink:
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In my 45 years of driving, I have owned more manuals than automatics. I can only remember one time when 1 time when I had a transmission issue and that was an automatic.
It was an 84-85 Accord that I bought for 300 as it wouldn't go into drive. towed it home, change the oil and few times and it worked, but just the first 3 gears, still wouldn't go into 4th, but since my daughter used it around town no biggie.
during the summer when she wasn't using it to go to college, I had it rebuilt. Worked fine until I got rear ended and it was totaled about 6 months later. But I made money as the car was worth much more than I had in it.
never had a clutch go out on me, had a rear seal leak a couple of times, but that is about it.
Still, I prefer manuals, just a preference. I think clutches and autos are much better than they used to be, as I have several cars over 200k without clutch issues. My Saturn and Dodge 2500 both over 300k and neither has had a clutch replaced.
However, the wife says the next one will be an auto, she is tired of shifting in stop and go traffic. So......
Old Head
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While we are remembering....I recall when I was a student with no money, I had a used Honda with their strange Honda-matic 2 speed transmission, that you shifted. A clutchless auto that was shifted between 1st and 2nd, and those were the only two gears.
That car lasted only a few months due to some other issue that I don't remember. It wasn't the best car, but it's wasn't the worst.
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Here's my last manual trans pick-up. These were taken right after I got it painted.
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/truck-03.jpg)
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/truck-04.jpg)
(http://www.ulterior-design.net/photos/truck-05.jpg)
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My first car was a used '54 Chevy 6 coupe. I broke a tooth off 1st gear by trying to impress friends with my clutch-less shifting technique. After that I was more careful. I owned several auto trans used cheap sub-compacts while I was a student, then graduated to an auto trans Corvair (talk about unreliable and impossible to tune!), then an auto trans GTO (It could go fast but was impossible to stop!). Then a succession of manuals including a 1966 BMW 2000-Ti, a couple of VW Rabbits and a Toyota Corolla. My current cage is a 2004 Prius I bought new and now has 165,000+ miles. Over the last ~60 years and ~1,000,000 miles, I've learned to adapt to both manual and auto transmissions, and I've never had a problem with any of them, after that first broken gear tooth. For some reason, I've never owned a pickup, so this whole post is off the thread, sorry.
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I understand why they stopped putting manuals in trucks. Nobody reads them.
:1: My initial thoughts when I first saw the thread title. :grin:
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Manuals are a hard sell these days when you want to get rid of one. Limited market.
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/10/11/report-only-18-percent-of-americans-can-drive-manual/
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In my 45 years of driving, I have owned more manuals than automatics. I can only remember one time when 1 time when I had a transmission issue and that was an automatic.
It was an 84-85 Accord that I bought for 300 as it wouldn't go into drive. towed it home, change the oil and few times and it worked, but just the first 3 gears, still wouldn't go into 4th, but since my daughter used it around town no biggie.
during the summer when she wasn't using it to go to college, I had it rebuilt. Worked fine until I got rear ended and it was totaled about 6 months later. But I made money as the car was worth much more than I had in it.
never had a clutch go out on me, had a rear seal leak a couple of times, but that is about it.
Still, I prefer manuals, just a preference. I think clutches and autos are much better than they used to be, as I have several cars over 200k without clutch issues. My Saturn and Dodge 2500 both over 300k and neither has had a clutch replaced.
However, the wife says the next one will be an auto, she is tired of shifting in stop and go traffic. So......
Old Head
I don't have manual tranny issues........it's the clutches that don't last for me when I own the vehicle for a long time and end up having to abuse the clutch in some situation, which wouldn't happen with an auto.
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(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h446/MChristakos/IMG_0693.jpg?t=1487550031)
Here's a picture of my Manual Truck pulling my Manual Jeep YJ....I had to trailer the Jeep from Iowa to New Jersey
I would never entertain an automatic vehicle ...2/5ths of driver input (clutch and shifter) are taken over by "the machine". Steering, Breaking and accelerator are too boring by themselves.
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I don't have manual tranny issues........it's the clutches that don't last for me when I own the vehicle for a long time and end up having to abuse the clutch in some situation, which wouldn't happen with an auto.
What sort of abuse?
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What sort of abuse?
Like 1 time my 16' RV trailer wheel got stuck in a pot hole and to get it out I had to abuse slipping the truck clutch. Not too much later the clutch was worn out prematurely. :violent1:
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Like 1 time my 16' RV trailer wheel got stuck in a pot hole and to get it out I had to abuse slipping the truck clutch. Not too much later the clutch was worn out prematurely. :violent1:
Driver error! You should stick to two pedal vehicles :evil:
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I feel your frustration, but the mfg aren't forcing it, the buying public is. The American buyers simply don't want sticks. If they did, the mfg would gladly provide them, all they want to do is sell more units. It's hard to text and steer and shift all at the same time! :sad:
Oh; A few years ago it was said to be the need to restrict rapid engine speed changes such as are common with manual transmissions, to make the pollution numbers. Have the manufacturers gotten by that roadblock?
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Oh; A few years ago it was said to be the need to restrict rapid engine speed changes such as are common with manual transmissions, to make the pollution numbers. Have the manufacturers gotten by that roadblock?
Yes, technically it was driver error, but I had just quit my job, my family was living in a house in norCal and I was in Vancouver, Wa., it was cold/wet, I had just backed up my trailer in a trailer park to leave, and managed to put my 13" trailer wheel in a hole I didn't even know about! At that point I just wanted to get the hell out of there !! :evil:
I did but in the end it cost me a $400 new clutch on my Dodge Ram 50.
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Ram 50 AND a travel trailer?
That clutch was going to go, just a matter of when. better the clutch than the engine, tranny or rear end. :thumb:
Or the brakes. :shocked:
(http://www.allpar.com/photos/dodge/ram/1980s/D-50-1981.jpg)
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Actually I had 2 Ram 50s I pulled RV trailers with. 1 was a `80 2L 4 spd. and the latter 1 was a `84 2.6L automatic. I pulled a 16' Komfort Lite trailer no problem.
Before those I had a `75 Toyota Chinook 2.2L pop top motor home. In the snow that rig didn't need chains since all the weight on all it's tires it got traction no problem w/4 ply tires & low 20s mpg w/4 spd. :bow:
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FIL had a Comfort Lite fifth wheel he towed with a Rampage. Yep, the little FWD pickup based on a car. 5sp and clutch. He pulled that thing over 15k miles. Only burned out one clutch. That was a sharp incline from a campground onto a highway and no room for a running start. FWIW, I don't think an automatic would have done any better, probably would have burned up the fluid in the transmission if it had tried the same thing.
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FIL had a Comfort Lite fifth wheel he towed with a Rampage. Yep, the little FWD pickup based on a car. 5sp and clutch. He pulled that thing over 15k miles. Only burned out one clutch. That was a sharp incline from a campground onto a highway and no room for a running start. FWIW, I don't think an automatic would have done any better, probably would have burned up the fluid in the transmission if it had tried the same thing.
When you say Comfort Lite fifth wheel you mean a 30 foot fifth wheel travel trailer weighing over 6000 pounds being towed by a 2700 pound FWD?
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Nope, a 19ft about 3000lb.
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My son is soon to need his first vehicle and it's down to a used Jeep or truck. It will be a manual simply because he should know how to drive one and I miss them. All of our other vehicles are autos. Automatics have become the Achilles heel of used car buyers. Had to replace one in my '95 Volvo wagon, (210,000 miles :rolleyes: and my '07 F150 (140,000 miles) within the last two years. The new '07 Grand Cherokee I had as a company car had chronic TCU problems that the dealer couldn't fix. (Well documented on other forums) and my neighbors Jetta wagon's transmission failed around 80,000 miles. She has to run the engine for 10 minutes before the car will move.
After my Cherokee experience, when I hear manufacturers talking about 8 and 10 speed autos I cringe.
Tobit
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My son is soon to need his first vehicle and it's down to a used Jeep or truck. It will be a manual simply because he should know how to drive one and I miss them. All of our other vehicles are autos. Automatics have become the Achilles heel of used car buyers. Had to replace one in my '95 Volvo wagon, (210,000 miles :rolleyes: and my '07 F150 (140,000 miles) within the last two years. The new '07 Grand Cherokee I had as a company car had chronic TCU problems that the dealer couldn't fix. (Well documented on other forums) and my neighbors Jetta wagon's transmission failed around 80,000 miles. She has to run the engine for 10 minutes before the car will move.
After my Cherokee experience, when I hear manufacturers talking about 8 and 10 speed autos I cringe.
Tobit
The two Jeep Cherokees I own now are both 5 speeds just like the several before that...The Japanese built transmission is long lived but second gear sychro gets weak....Never had any trans or clutch problems at 150 K miles and 20 years old...
Our daughter recently retired her 97 Cherokee with 390K miles , It still ran fine but too many deer hits and unscheduled off road adventures has taken it's toll.....She bought it with about 250K miles on it and appeared to have the original engines and driveline, never a problem with the old 4 speed automatic....
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After my Cherokee experience, when I hear manufacturers talking about 8 and 10 speed autos I cringe.
Tobit
No doubt an ECM failure ( and they will ) will be huge dollars!