NGC. Question for you welders

[fotoguzzi]

Now that I'm retired I have time to learn how to weld, got myself in a class "found object art". I'm almost done with my first sculpture, pretty sloppy welds but It's a lot of fun.



Here's my question, how would YOU weld two shovels together along an edge? I've ground the edge surface to match each other and moved down to my smallest tip, I think a #1.. the moment the puddle develops it burns a hole since the shovels are so thin.. there's not really any time to add filler when the puddle starts. I did make a few good welds without filler but I'm not sure how strong that will be. Is the steel in the shovel anything special that I should know.? Brazing a butt joint is a no- no, right?
I guess I could use bracing on the inside with another piece of metal but would still run into the trouble with the thinness of the shovel. Maybe brazing with a brace?

[RinkRat II]

   Most shovels are tempered, pre heat them along those edges to a real dull red and then weld them with as slow and low setting you can get away with.
    As they say, practice, practice, practice.

        Paul B

[LesP]

Are you gas welding ?
Use the biggest filler wire you can handle until you can handle the next size up (in general unless you are building a watch)........ Have the wire close so you are ready to weld quick smart and do a borderline pad weld.
If it is a torch you do not have to keep the flame at the joint all the time, you can keep the wire travel straight but the flame can be crescent, circular or whatever with practise.

Its just surfing, riding the heat wave.

[Knuckle Dragger]

Maybe just a nice gentle Fusion Weld (with Oxy Acetylene only without any brazing rods, oxy-rich flame manipulated in tiny circles to create a nice little pool of molten metal) rather than an arc, which is pretty harsh on thinner substrates.  High temp melting & fusing the edges together with gas will minimise that "cocky-cack" look that you (I) get from an electric arc.

Just make sure you tack the 2 ends first to minimise temperature distortion.

Nothin' wrong with daggy welds.  I'm a master at it. 

[Perazzimx14]

Its all heat management. If you are burning through its too hot. Either smaller tip or less amperage depending on the type welding you are doing.

Wire feed welders are great for thinner stuff. The Harbor Freight Titanium Easy-Flux 125 amp welder flux core (not truly a MIG becasue there is no shielding gas) but for $179 is a good investment and ideal for home use. ITs good from sheetmetal to around 1/4" thinck material. 120V power source and you're all set. I purchased one a while back for home repairs/projects and am totally satisfied.

[SIR REAL ED]

   Most shovels are tempered, pre heat them along those edges to a real dull red and then weld them with as slow and low setting you can get away with.
    As they say, practice, practice, practice.

        Paul B

Good advice.  I would not hesitate to braze them.  Much easier.

[SIR REAL ED]

Its all heat management. If you are burning through its too hot. Either smaller tip or less amperage depending on the type welding you are doing.

Wire feed welders are great for thinner stuff. The Harbor Freight Titanium Easy-Flux 125 amp welder flux core (not truly a MIG becasue there is no shielding gas) but for $179 is a good investment and ideal for home use. ITs good from sheetmetal to around 1/4" thinck material. 120V power source and you're all set. I purchased one a while back for home repairs/projects and am totally satisfied.

Oddly enough, I bought something similar.  Seems to work well so far.  You only get the base welder + stick holder at this price.  Tig torch is on order.  That's another $110.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200680691_200680691

[Chuck in Indiana]

Since you are down to your smallest tip, I'll assume you are ox/act welding.
First, and most importantly with *any* method is to get rid to the rust on both sides of the weld. Bead blast is ideal. That is *not* thin material. I routinely weld .020 to .035" tubing with gas. If you have too much heat with your smallest tip, you need a smaller tip. <shrug>  There are *way* too many tricks to this method of welding for a web post, though.

[cliffrod]

I enjoy welding.  Certainly not a pro.  I gas weld and braze much more than TIG and stick. 

Apparently great minds think alike- The first thing needed here is to clean the weld area to bright shiny rust free metal.  Dirty metal = dirty weld.  The layer of rust/iron oxide and ?? else is in it will mechanically interfere with puddle development, visually interfere with reading temp to start that puddle and contaminate any weld actually produced.   Until those areas close to the weld are clean, you'll have crap inconsistent results. 

Thin burns through fast.  Make a few equally spaced tacks along the length. Split the difference a couple of times with more tacks.  Depending upon your puddle control, skip around between those tacks to complete or weld in longer sections.  It's a heat sink so limit how much heat you concentrate to limit burn-through.

Brazing would be fine as well. I braze all my carbide chisels and tools for stone work.  Items have to be better jigged or braced securely in position because the molten filler provides no structural support until it cools.  No matter, surfaces still need to be 100% clean for the flux or you'll be disappointed...

If you want to save the rust as patina, do something other than welding or recreate the surface rust after welding. Lots of methods on the interweb.

[e.cleven]

Hi Brad, glad to  hear that you are retired.  If you need a bigger shovel I think I have a scoop shovel around for you so you don't have to try and make one.   
Hope to see you this summer.

Ride Safe.

Earl.

[fotoguzzi]

Yes, it's gas welding, I can inherit a wire feed welder but that's next semester..
thanks for all the tips, I'll do a better job of cleaning the rust away from the area from now on and practice practice practice. I have 51 shovels to practice on, not revealing my plans yet tho.

[cliffrod]

Developing your skills with gas welding is the best platform to working well later in other methods when needed.  Nothing is more versatile.  MIG is fast but brittle.  TIG is slower but has benefits over both MIG and gas for specicifc work.  the only time I don't gas weld most projects around here is when the metal is thick. Then electric methods get better penetration faster. 

If you wanting to practice and have a few cut off discs, try cutting up a single shovel and welding it back together over and over again.  If the cuts are equal halves, heat management and puddle maintenance will be much easier/different than welding unequal parts.  Do it both ways, varying size of parts with the same exact metal & metal thickness.  See what happens.  Great practice. Then move on to more variables, like welding together different pieces of varying thicknesses.

[booob]

I do a lot of welding with thin sheet metals, including aluminum.  The best way to stop keyholing is by placing a piece of copper underneath the joint you're welding.

It acts as a heat sync. it sucks some heat away from your work..

AND steel wire doesnt stick to copper  if you used steel backing plates, you'd end up welding a big plate in funny places..

You can get copper backers at most welding supply shops.

[fotoguzzi]

I do a lot of welding with thin sheet metals, including aluminum.  The best way to stop keyholing is by placing a piece of copper underneath the joint you're welding.

It acts as a heat sync. it sucks some heat away from your work..

AND steel wire doesnt stick to copper  if you used steel backing plates, you'd end up welding a big plate in funny places..

You can get copper backers at most welding supply shops.

nice, that sounds like a good idea

[larrys]

I do a lot of welding with thin sheet metals, including aluminum.  The best way to stop keyholing is by placing a piece of copper underneath the joint you're welding.

It acts as a heat sync. it sucks some heat away from your work..

AND steel wire doesnt stick to copper  if you used steel backing plates, you'd end up welding a big plate in funny places..

You can get copper backers at most welding supply shops.

Chunks o' scrap aluminum work, too. I can do MIG, TIG, and stick in my shop. My 110V MIG gets the most use. Hot glue for steel...
Larry

[Ncdan]

For your application good ole oxygen and acetylene gas is hard to beat, IMHO

[Chuck in Indiana]

Nothing is more versatile.

I'll argue that.  You can weld anything with TIG. For instance, aluminum *can* be welded with a torch, but it is tough. Special fuel and goggles.
Brad, when I teach guys that build airplanes to weld, I tell them to get some flat sheet the same thickness as the tubing normally used. Don't even worry about filler rod yet. Practice puddle control, and run bead after bead. You will soon see what it takes to form the puddle and how to move it along. Small circular motions..
After you are comfortable with puddle control, you can start patting your head and rubbing your tummy.  As you move the puddle with circular motions with your right hand (if you are right handed) you can now learn to dab the filler rod in the puddle as you move it along. Keep the filler rod near but not in the puddle.
Practice. A lot. It will become second nature after a while.
Oh, one other thing. I haven't looked, but I'll bet there are *many* instructional videos on YouTube. The internet *can* be a wonderful thing. I had to learn by reading a book. Or two. 

[Perazzimx14]

As a pipfitter then better art of my life I have been exposed to lots of different welding applications. Nuclear, x-ray, high purity, structural and right on down to low end carbon steel stick welding. In all instances we use MIG/Pulse arc, TIG, stick but never oxy/acetylene.

If I asked one of my welders to gas weld soethgin they laugh me off the site. Its an antiquated method that has very little practical use.

Brazing is a differtn kettle of fish.

[Lumpy Idle]

a lot of good advice here - especially from booob. if i had my druthers i would go with mig and a narrow gauge wire. clean the metal up reeellllyy gud, tack it at the top, bottom and middle and then roll out a small bead (1.5 inches or so.) let it cool to prevent radical warpage and then pick up the next bead at the opposite end - working toward the middle. let it cool...etc...etc.  grind off the visible crimes of your welding and finish off with a flap wheel.

bob's yer...

[LesP]

Here is my 2 cents as a boilermaker/welder.

It is little point practising what you do not know which is why you will learn more in 5 minutes from an actual welder than you will trying to figure it out yourself in how long ?

You do not need backing strips if you can weld, of course there are weld procedures that have metal backing plates or strips.
If you are having trouble go back to basic set up, if you have to run your angle grinder (wheel flat) down the sides of the shovel so you end up with a friendly set up ie no root gap or wavy prep. (open and closed)
You could even put a starter tag at each end to run onto an off (a bit over the top for art)

Key hole welding when you get better is no problem, its how pipe was welded depending on the root gap and root face set up.

Here is my advice, do not practise bad practise or bodges.
Welding is an art form with heat and metal deposit.

Go back to set up (foundation)
Good prep makes for easier welding until you can weld around that.

[cliffrod]

I'll stand by my statement. Having a gas welding rig at your disposal is more versatile.  Heat, braze, weld and cut at will- in the shop, on site, inside, outside, no electricity or concerns about AC, DC, Pulse, cleaning, post flow, having the right electrodes, tips, spool of wire, speed adjustments and more.  Knowing how to fluently gas weld makes all other welding processes easier to learn. 

Antiquated?  In many ways nowadays, yes.  That why I have a big Miller TIG.  HAZ and quick deep penetration concerns are another reason for a TIG.    Brazing and heating/bending with a TIG is possible but not as practical.  MIG- nope.  Cutting with any accuracy?  Neither TIG or MIG, although burning with a stick welder is quick and dirty.  That's why I see a gas rig as more versatile for the wide range of what I do here. 

Electric welding methods replaced gas welding in commercial and industrial settings, in many ways simply because it was faster which translates into different operating costs and profit margins. With standardized settings, it can even be easier to learn/train.  It wasn't because the same things weren't or couldn't be welded with gas to the same level of success and quality by an experienced welder.

Get a copy of old Linde gas welding handbook, which was reprinted for decades.  If you don't understand root gap, root face, etc. it's all there with lots more.  Great reading.

I agree with LesP- welding is an art form.

Edit- there are no "special gases" needed to gas weld aluminum as mentioned above.  Plain oxy-acetylene works fine and can produce excellent aviation-grade welds.   Oxy-Hydrogen can be used to eliminate the color of the flame for better puddle visibility and control (lower pressure).   

Special lenses are required for gas welding aluminum.  TM Technologies TM2000 lens is the best. I often use it while gas welding steel because it eliminate the color gradient, making it much easier to read the puddle.

Along with Linde's "The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook", "Aircraft Welding" by L.S. Elzea is another must-have gas welding book.

[Ncdan]

I'll stand by my statement. Having a gas welding rig at your disposal is more versatile.  Heat, braze, weld and cut at will- in the shop, on site, inside, outside, no electricity or concerns about AC, DC, Pulse, cleaning, post flow, having the right electrodes, tips, spool of wire, speed adjustments and more.  Knowing how to fluently gas weld makes all other welding processes easier to learn. 

Antiquated?  In many ways nowadays, yes.  That why I have a big Miller TIG.  HAZ and quick deep penetration concerns are another reason for a TIG.    Brazing and heating/bending with a TIG is possible but not as practical.  MIG- nope.  Cutting with any accuracy?  Neither TIG or MIG, although burning with a stick welder is quick and dirty.  That's why I see a gas rig as more versatile for the wide range of what I do here. 

Electric welding methods replaced gas welding in commercial and industrial settings, in many ways simply because it was faster which translates into different operating costs and profit margins. With standardized settings, it can even be easier to learn/train.  It wasn't because the same things weren't or couldn't be welded with gas to the same level of success and quality by an experienced welder.

Get a copy of old Linde gas welding handbook, which was reprinted for decades.  If you don't understand root gap, root face, etc. it's all there with lots more.  Great reading.

I agree with LesP- welding is an art form.

Edit- there are no "special gases" needed to gas weld aluminum as mentioned above.  Plain oxy-acetylene works fine and can produce excellent aviation-grade welds.   Oxy-Hydrogen can be used to eliminate the color of the flame for better puddle visibility and control (lower pressure).   

Special lenses are required for gas welding aluminum.  TM Technologies TM2000 lens is the best. I often use it while gas welding steel because it eliminate the color gradient, making it much easier to read the puddle.

Along with Linde's "The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook", "Aircraft Welding" by L.S. Elzea is another must-have gas welding book.

Totally agree  Cliff. You and I understand that a set of tanks, heating tip, cutting tip and three sizes of welding/brazing tips is the most versatile, economical and sensible rig available. Also one does not have to be a nuclear certified welder to operate it, just a little practice 👍

[fotoguzzi]

 Linde's "The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook".. got it ordered, thanks for that.

[cliffrod]

Linde's "The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook".. got it ordered, thanks for that.

Very cool.  I hope you find it as useful as I do.  I have numerous other welding books. none compare and all seem to derive content from this source.

One tip from Kent White that helps a lot.  Even if your regulators work properly, the gauges are much different between gases.  It can be hard to accurately set equal pressure at exactly 3psi (for example) by the gauges alone.  Using a regular hand held vacuum/pressure gauge, slip the hose over the tip of your torch, adjust your pressure with regulator and you can have perfect pressure adjustment with the perfect flame & performance.    I have a spare vacuum/pressure gauge hanging with my tanks for this use.  Too simple.

My Gas Saver is another must have for what I do.  Depending upon what you do, it will speed work and save much gas. It also keeps your flame adjusted perfectly between tasks vs adjusting new every time you light the torch.  I haven't gotten a piezio igniter for it but plan to.  That saves even more gas and $$.  Guzzi Content...

[fotoguzzi]

Wow, gas saver is over $300.. I don't think I'm welding enough to recover the cost anytime soon.
I did buy one of those little kits with the tiny tanks, not optimum I know but for $200 it gets me working in the garage.. someday I'll upgrade, I keep watching Craig's list for a steal on larger tanks.

[hauto]

I do some home welding:gas,tig and mig. The one thing I wish I could get better at is thin sheet metal,specifically two stroke exhaust chambers. When I try it I always seem to oxidize the metal.When I see a custom sectional chamber all welded up and not one blow through I wish I could get to that level.

[SIR REAL ED]

Since you are down to your smallest tip, I'll assume you are ox/act welding.
First, and most importantly with *any* method is to get rid to the rust on both sides of the weld. Bead blast is ideal. That is *not* thin material. I routinely weld .020 to .035" tubing with gas. If you have too much heat with your smallest tip, you need a smaller tip. <shrug>  There are *way* too many tricks to this method of welding for a web post, though.

Hey  Chuck,

What size tip are you using to weld .020 to .035" tube?  I have a 000 that I am planning to use on an old gas tank.  Not sure of thickness.  I was considering getting one of the mini torches, but without a trial, not sure if I would ever use it.

[cliffrod]

Wow, gas saver is over $300.. I don't think I'm welding enough to recover the cost anytime soon.
I did buy one of those little kits with the tiny tanks, not optimum I know but for $200 it gets me working in the garage.. someday I'll upgrade, I keep watching Craig's list for a steal on larger tanks.

New gas savers are $$, but they do come up for less. I got a second one cheap last summer.  If you do much manipulation of your items being welded, that cost is quickly covered by saved time and gas.  Not cheap, but you'll never regret having it once you use it much.  Craftsman did offer a torch handle (Harris manufacture, iirc) with a comparable built-in shut off.  Easy to find used not expensive, tips can still be found but it's clunky big/round like my Purox W300 which isn't to my liking.  Biggest issue is settling on a torch that is supported.  So many have been discontinued in recent years. It's easy to waste money buying a new or used torch, then need 1-2 different tips or parts and finding out there's none available.

Before buying tanks, check with your local welding house that will be filling them for you.  See what they will or won't do before wasting money on big tanks they won't fill. Some are outright purchase and simple exchange with no questions asked, usually up to 40cfm.  The tiny tote-alongs are approx 25cfm and simple exchange/fill but not worth much in use.  75-80cfm tanks can be simple exchange once registered. Locally, they have a one time "lifetime lease" fee of about $240 per 75-80cfm tank to purchase and register them.  an 40 cfm tank that isn't theirs or out of date costs about $40 to register with them or about $200/each for first purchase from them.  Cost of fill gas is separate.

The fullsize tanks are either lease only, with a fee every month, or privately owned & must be shipped off for certification every time they're filled.    Welding shops won't accept a competitor's lease tank.  I got a fullsize argon tank with my TIG, only because seller was vacating/moving and would only sell cheap if I took it.  I have zero use for it.  Some trade full tanks through someone else's lease agreement. Not my way of doing things and not as simple as in the past.

Around here, required recert on a privately owned fullsize tank takes about 2 wks for every refill.  If they're bad, the tank is discarded and you're sol- no compensation or replacement.  It's meant to be cost prohibitive so tanks are leased instead of purchased.

Small 25cfm tote-along tanks exhaust quickly if you're welding anything of consequence.  Their value is portability for very small work.  Even then, it's gotta be really a small job and they've got to be 100% full or you'll run out before the project is done.

In this area, 40cfm tanks are a good deal around $50/each used, normal at $100/used and new is approx $200/each.  Each one may cost up to $40 per tank to bring an out of date tank into current cert or into a new welding house for fill.    I have at least half a dozen 40cfm tanks (most purchased cheap/used) plus a pair of 40cfm argon tanks that I got for my first TIG. Storage is a drag, but better than lease expenses.  Having at least an extra pair helps when you're trying to wrap up a job and run low on gas.  If I were you, I would use your small tote tanks now & as that backup and start watching for a pair of 40cfm tanks.

My interest is more focused on welding thin than thick.  It boils down to practice.  I want to add a Meco Midget N, mainly because it's still fully supported and friends & mentors who are coachbuilding legit multi-million cars consistently say it's the best torch they've ever used for thin sheet work in steel or aluminum.  For now, I like my favorite old & discontinued Concoa model 750 better than my Esab/Purox 300 or that Craftsman/Harris.  It seems easy to find a used 40cfm tank or two with a small welding rig for $100-$200.  Under $100, it's a good chance to get tanks and try a different torch.

I am self-taught and learned with my Concoa, which makes me a little biased by familiarity. A Meco Midget is on my list to get.  Getting better is a goal of mine.  My V700 Corsa Record project is part of that getting better goal.  It boils down to practice and I may go months between welding projects.  Not cool. That's another reason why owned small tanks make more $$ for me.

Gas welding is a happy place for me. 

Edit- good links

https://www.tinmantech.com/products/welding/meco-torch-accessories/meco-midget-torch.php
https://www.tinmantech.com/products/welding/meco-torch-accessories/

[John A]

https://store.cyberweld.com/smlito23.html
I bought one of these at the local welders supply store.  It wouldn’t be any good for your current project but I sure do like it for small stuff like silver soldering cable ends and welding thin stuff.  I have it on the regular oxy acetylene regulators with y fittings with shutoff valves.

[fotoguzzi]

My torch is a Harris model 85, from the tiny kit I bought off CL, it is like new, 3 tips #1,3&5 plus a cutting torch.
 I have a great guy at a local welding shop only a mile from home. He already exchanged my acetylene tank, cost was $30... I actually have 2 oxy and 2 acetylene tiny tanks so can be prepared for them to run out.
if I do find other tanks to buy I can run it past him to be sure they can be exchanged.. just watching daily for a killer deal, will focus on the 40cfm like you advise.

I don't have flash back arresters, do I need them?