V7II vs. V7III engine/power delivery?

[Mwether]

Happy Sunday, all!

As I peruse the used V7 market and find both Mk.2 and Mk.3s for sale, I'm wondering about your experiences with the engine changes between models.

I understand that the II (2014) got the more forward cant on the engine/heads, new gearbox with an extra gear—taking it from five- to six-speed—ABS, TC, and a redesigned chassis. Then the III (2017) got heavier (twin-walled pipes, etc.), a few more ponies, and different gearing, which made the torque peak at higher RPM.

Below is part of what Dave/Moto International used to have on their website about the difference:

...The IIIs make a little more horsepower, steer a little more lightly, run cleaner to meet more stringent emissions standards, and sit lower to fit more riders.

There is some excitement surrounding the news that the III makes “10% more horsepower!” Yes, that’s true in terms of the peak value. But it comes at the expense of a little bit of low-end torque. The II and III have the same peak torque value, but for the II it is reached at 2800 rpm while the III doesn’t accomplish it till 4900. So at low engine speeds does the III feel weaker? Yes, but not in a way that will be negative to all riders. Some felt that the II was too torquey at low engine speeds, so the III is less abrupt and more linear.

Gearing is slightly different: the III has a slightly taller first and sixth gear. So the III feels a bit more relaxed on the freeway. I felt that first on the II was lower than necessary. Perhaps a commuter would like the lower first of the II better.

Two things I doubt anyone will question: the seat and the rear shocks are definitely more comfortable on the III. Oh, and the seat is about ¾” lower on the III but that means that the II has a little more leg room for taller riders.

Typically, I'd buy the newest version of a bike I could, but I wonder if more folks prefer the character of the II?
What have you all experienced?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I believe the II has a Heron head (dished Piston)
The III has a Hemi head (domed piston)

[Kev m]

I can't day about the one year only V7II as it's the ONE version I didn't bother riding. IIRC I thought peak torque or hp was lower on it than the preserver predecessor MkI model, but I could be remembering wrong.

I will say that I happily own both a MkI V7 Stone (first year 1TB model) and a V7III. Plus I've sought out rides on the V9 and the newest V7850.

I like my MkI so much it's not going anywhere. The MkIII is noticeably more powerful and a better highway bike. The current 850 isn't as noticeable a difference from the III as the III is from the I.

If I wrecked either tomorrow I'd buy a pre-EU V V9 Bobber Sport or an EUV V7 850.

The heron head is cool and nostalgic and I don't need more. But if I lost it somehow the more modern hemi heads are clearly better.

[Mwether]

I believe the II has a Heron head (dished Piston)
The III has a Hemi head (domed piston)

Thanks, Roy. That's my understanding too.

[Mwether]

Thanks, Kev! Very helpful.

I like my MkI so much it's not going anywhere. The MkIII is noticeably more powerful and a better highway bike.

Can you tell me more about this? Are there some conditions in which you prefer the Mk1?
(I sure do like the white ones, and I think the Mk.1 was the only one to come in white!)

Do you notice any weight difference? Does the III feel any bigger or more cumbersome?

[Beowulf]

I can comment on the difference between the 2, 3, and 850. I’d say the 2 builds power faster than the three with the three struggling less with highway speeds in cruising not that it did bad. I liked the V7 ii a lot. The power delivery was fun. The 850 does great and I love it as it does feel significantly better for Highway use. Less rpm’s at higher speeds. Maybe that will make some sense.

I think it’s really about whether you prefer hitting your power early or building up to it. My 2 cents

[Kev m]

Thanks, Kev! Very helpful.

Can you tell me more about this? Are there some conditions in which you prefer the Mk1?
(I sure do like the white ones, and I think the Mk.1 was the only one to come in white!)

Do you notice any weight difference? Does the III feel any bigger or more cumbersome?

I have spent my life trying to either convince myself that I was mature enough for a sportbike or somehow needed more power because it was available.

It took me too long to figure out that I'm just as happy with a slower/lower power bike, occasionally "flogging" it, but still staying much more within more uh "reasonable" limits.

My MkI can be thrown around in the curves and ridden aggressively while still staying below oh crap speeds. If there is any shortcoming, it's with the power and feel on the highway. While it'll do 75-80 all day long, it's not easy/lazy.

As such I have a big bore Harley Road King for that kind of riding.

And the RK is more than just lazy highway power, the chassis is bigger and more easily carries more. That said I sometimes wonder if I could do without it. And I could more easily do without it on a V7III than a MkI. The III isn't night and day different, but it's got a little bit more all around (power, comfort, stability and feel on the highway).

Yet I come back to the MkI so often because sometimes less is more and I enjoy that.

But no. I don't think the III is more cumbersome and I don't think the MkI is "actually better" in any other way. It's just cool and I love it.

Of course take all this in the perspective that I once hopped off the 800# RK and threw myself against the MkI V7 (the same way I throw my body against the RK to help get it off the stand) and almost threw the V7 to the floor.

Also keep in mind that the V7III is my diminutive wife's second bike (the Ducati is her first love). The V7III was purchased so she could carry our youngest son as a passenger. I really couldn't tell the difference between the two in weight unless I tried to bench press them, and then I'd fail at either.

[Kev m]

I can comment on the difference between the 2, 3, and 850. I’d say the 2 builds power faster than the three with the three struggling less with highway speeds in cruising not that it did bad. I liked the V7 ii a lot. The power delivery was fun. The 850 does great and I love it as it does feel significantly better for Highway use. Less rpm’s at higher speeds. Maybe that will make some sense.

I think it’s really about whether you prefer hitting your power early or building up to it. My 2 cents

I guess we all have our own perspectives.

I love Harleys and Guzzis and have loved BMWs, but some of the BMWs spun up enough to be a little "buzzy" to me. Still they were never as buzzy as say a JAPaninc. 4cyl 1200 Bandit. But at highway speeds the oilhead BMW was more like a Bandit than a Harley.

What do I mean by all that? Mostly that the difference in rpm and power delivery between the various V7 models is an RCH and better measured with a micrometer then a yardstick.

OP, really, just buy the one you like.

[Iron Cross Junction]

I thought the OP had raised this before and had many responses.  But, as with oil threads and the like, I can revisit this sort of discussion every day.   

I have not ridden -- or don't remember if I have -- the first in the series.

But I have a II (Stornello) and III. 

I am not an engineer or a human dyno, thus my view is entirely subjective without a claimed data point beyond my own take.

I like them both.  Lots.  I have done multi-day trips on both.  I find them both grand on the back roads I ride.  I am only rarely on the slab and then only for a few miles exit to next exit.  Both keep up with all but the stooopidest of traffic on the I-roads, but the thought of droning on at even 70+ for hours makes me tired even to think about it.

If, however, I had to choose one over the other for the visceral "feel" of a Guzzi as I think of them, the II wins.  Easily.  If anything, the III is, IMO, over-refined to the point that -- at least in comparison with my other Guzzis and th Stornello in particular --  a bit tame, even bland.

It's not a shortage of power -- tho its not a 1/4 turn to a ton machine  -- but how it makes compared to the II.

I find the stock map on the III to be just fine, smooth, and linear.  The original stock map on the Stornello was maddening, requiring what no other Guzzi of mine ever demanded, i.e., a significant warm-up before launching.  The new one, much better.

The Stornello has had no issues beyond those I have inflicted on it.  I did replace the rear shocks with Ikons. 

The III, no issues at all.

Enough.

Best wishes on deciding.

Bill

[Bulldog9]

I thought the OP had raised this before and had many responses.  But, as with oil threads and the like, I can revisit this sort of discussion every day.   

I have not ridden -- or don't remember if I have -- the first in the series.

But I have a II (Stornello) and III. 

I am not an engineer or a human dyno, thus my view is entirely subjective without a claimed data point beyond my own take.

I like them both.  Lots.  I have done multi-day trips on both.  I find them both grand on the back roads I ride.  I am only rarely on the slab and then only for a few miles exit to next exit.  Both keep up with all but the stooopidest of traffic on the I-roads, but the thought of droning on at even 70+ for hours makes me tired even to think about it.

If, however, I had to choose one over the other for the visceral "feel" of a Guzzi as I think of them, the II wins.  Easily.  If anything, the III is, IMO, over-refined to the point that -- at least in comparison with my other Guzzis and th Stornello in particular --  a bit tame, even bland.

It's not a shortage of power -- tho its not a 1/4 turn to a ton machine  -- but how it makes compared to the II.

I find the stock map on the III to be just fine, smooth, and linear.  The original stock map on the Stornello was maddening, requiring what no other Guzzi of mine ever demanded, i.e., a significant warm-up before launching.  The new one, much better.

The Stornello has had no issues beyond those I have inflicted on it.  I did replace the rear shocks with Ikons. 

The III, no issues at all.

Enough.

Best wishes on deciding.

Bill

I agree with Bill. I have a V7II Stornello, but have ridden both. The III is a bit smoother, more refined, and a VERY slight bump in power, but less 'authentic' feel or character.  I've not ridden a V7II Special or Stone, but the Stornello is spunky, and I much prefer it over the III.

[Dirk_S]

Echoing the torque-hp differences already mentioned: I bought my V7 II in 2017. When the new V7 III lineup came out, I visited the Guzzi dealer nearest to me, Seacoast Sport Cycle, same dealer I bought my II from, and discussed the differences between the 2 models. We obviously talked about the new heads, but when I brought up the power increase, he shrugged, and said essentially “they raise the numbers over here at the expense of the numbers over there.” When you add in the little bit of extra weight, and the higher RPMs for max torque delivery, I think the comparisons are there, but also minor enough. I agree with the refinement critique. It seems each new model of Guzzi is losing a good deal of that beloved raw personality. They sound great, at least.

You won’t be disappointed with either version, I bet, although it’s worth noting that there are obviously difference in parts, and older machines never get younger.

[Brand X]

I would like to add one thing about the steering on the V7ii Stornello. Only ridden Big blocks before this V-7.  Started out with the stock Bias front,and rear Radial. Stiff riding setup.. Then went to Conti RA3 for a bit.. Very good overall, and turn-in wheel. Picked up a set of factory V7-iii rims, and stock sport Demons .Bike would not turn-in without a lot of force. Way different steering completely. Now I am back with the stock rear Radial (GT201) and a Pirelli MT-60 RS 100/80R18  Turns in  very well, rides super nice, and only a bit more noise. The stock sport demons on the V7-ii make my Breva 1100 feel like a  Super-Moto (Dunlop Q3+) Conti's are going on my black,and now tubeless rims. Tires make a huge difference on this bike.

The six speed in my bike is excellent, and probably better then the 30 plus bikes I have owned (Motul 300 75-90)

[chrisfer]

A good review here : https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/moto-guzzi/2017-moto-guzzi-v7-iii-stone-review.html

[Iron Cross Junction]

I agree with Bill. I have a V7II Stornello, but have ridden both. The III is a bit smoother, more refined, and a VERY slight bump in power, but less 'authentic' feel or character.  I've not ridden a V7II Special or Stone, but the Stornello is spunky, and I much prefer it over the III.

Echoing the torque-go differences already mentioned: I bought my V7 II in 2017. When the new V7 III lineup came out, I visited the Guzzi dealer nearest to me, Seacoast Sport Cycle, same dealer I bought my II from, about the differences between the 2 models. We obviously talked about the new heads, but when I brought up the power increase, he shrugged, and said essentially “they raise the numbers over here at the expense of the numbers over there.” When you add in the little bit of extra weight, and the higher RPMs for max torque delivery, I think it comparisons are there, but also minor enough. I agree with the refinement critique. It seems each new model of Guzzi is losing a good deal of that beloved raw personality. They sound great, at least.

You won’t be disappointed with either version, I bet, although it’s worth noting that there are obviously difference in parts, and older machines never get younger.

I find myself nearly always agreeing with people who agree with me.   

I would like to add one thing about the steering on the V7ii Stornello. Only ridden Big blocks before this V-7.  Started out with the stock Bias front,and rear Radial. Stiff riding setup.. Then went to Conti RA3 for a bit.. Very good overall, and turn-in wheel. Picked up a set of factory V7-iii rims, and stock sport Demons .Bike would not turn-in without a lot of force. Way different steering completely. Now I am back with the stock rear Radial (GT201) and a Pirelli MT-60 RS 100/80R18  Turns in  very well, rides super nice, and only a bit more noise. The stock sport demons on the V7-ii make my Breva 1100 feel like a  Super-Moto (Dunlop Q3+) Conti's are going on my black,and now tubeless rims. Tires make a huge difference on this bike.

The six speed in my bike is excellent, and probably better then the 30 plus bikes I have owned (Motul 300 75-90)

Hard to discuss intelligently the fine points of any aspect of motorcycle engineering with someone who has owned more than three times the number of motorcycles I have, but, of course, that won't stop me.   

The wheels swap was interesting to me, and your experience surprising.  I would not have thought that, aside fro tires, the wheels would have made such a difference in performance.  Then again, I had never even thought about doing that (as much as I dislike wire spoking).

The various mixing and matching you have done with tires, too, is interesting.  Without doubting your observations, I am simply insensitive to all the nuances you report.  Everyone, I suppose, likes new tires, and I thought that the stock-supplied Golden Whatevers were quite fine on and off pavement, with "off pavement" meaning no more than dual-track gravel and dirt.  Anything more challenging means I should wear Depends.     Now have Pirelli Scorpion Trail II's that are OK, but I'll shop around for the alleged latest and greatest when I next new rubber for the Stornello.  On my III, I found whatever the OEM tires were -- I've forgotten -- unimpressive.  But when I replaced them with Conti RA3's, I never had the near-orgasmic experiences that most here seem to have enjoyed with those.  The III now wears Pilot Activs, that I think are mighty fine.  Again, there are indubitably objective charts and reports from more experienced riders such as yourself, but so much remains "what works for you," with riding style, roads, speeds, scream point, etc., deciding what works best.  The seeminly exponential advances in tire technology advances can also make yesterday's observations less relevant.

A good review here : https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/moto-guzzi/2017-moto-guzzi-v7-iii-stone-review.html

Thanks for that. 

I am in the middle of reading a biography of Alexander von Humboldt, that great 19th century scientist, philosopher, and just about everything. He would, I think, look at such charts as marvelous representations of empirical data, but lacking the impossible-to-graph lines that depict satisfaction, fun, and joy.

Such an enhanced template of those factors reveals that, while I like both very much, I pursue happiness faster on the II than the III.

If ever a "debate" such as this evidences YMMV, it is this.

Best,

Bill

[chrisfer]

...There is some excitement surrounding the news that the III makes “10% more horsepower!” Yes, that’s true in terms of the peak value. But it comes at the expense of a little bit of low-end torque. The II and III have the same peak torque value, but for the II it is reached at 2800 rpm while the III doesn’t accomplish it till 4900. So at low engine speeds does the III feel weaker? Yes, but not in a way that will be negative to all riders...

As you can see on the graph the torque of the V7 III is never lower than the V7 II, even at 2800rpm.

[Brand X]

The wheels are the exact same, just painted, and unpainted.. It was a point of describing the Sport Demons more then anything else.. The V-ii does not like to turn into a corner with them. They want to keep going straight when good radials fall into the comers without thinking about.. Since the V-7iii was changed to quicken the steering,it seems like a tire change/upgrade from the factory would of been a easy first step if you wanted to make the bike turn..If you had a Dyno charts on the same Dyno with more examples it might have a bit more meaning, then just one bike of each type.Same day too..I am thinking any V7 is going to be a dog compared to just about any modern bike around that size. Is there that much difference being blown off by 20 bike lengths or just maybe 15 on a really fast V-7 version? I think the output of my 883 was kind of similar to the v7. least the rubber mounted one I had. Although You can hop up the Harley much easier, and to a way higher level. 45 v twins do nothing for me, and even the 60 degree stuff seems a bit off here, and there..  


I still say the rear golden tire is one very good tire, and a great match with the sticky front Pirelli.. It was the front GT-250 that was such a mismatch for me.. It so close now to the feel of the RA-3 in general street riding, I am no longer concerned about going to a 60/40 type tire for the street.As long as it has good compound. Not on the Stornello anyway..

[Kev m]

As you can see on the graph the torque of the V7 III is never lower than the V7 II, even at 2800rpm.

^^^

This

I realize we're not talking about powerhouses in any of these bikes, but dynos suggest the Mk I and Mk II are pretty similar and the Mk III have a definite bump relative to them. That agrees with my experience with the feel on my Mk I vs my Mk III.

I guess I still really like the feel on the Mk I, but I'm not sure I agree with the Stornello cult that I like it MORE.

Then again, when the Stornello came out people talked about the map being different or the feel of the motor being different because of that exhaust. So who knows, maybe there is a difference between the Stornello and the rest of the V7s.

[Kev m]

The wheels are the exact same, just painted, and unpainted.. It was a point of describing the Sport Demons more then anything else.. The V-ii does not like to turn into a corner with them. They want to keep going straight when good radials fall into the comers without thinking about.. Since the V-7iii was changed to quicken the steering,it seems like a tire change/upgrade from the factory would of been a easy first step if you wanted to make the bike turn..If you had a Dyno charts on the same Dyno with more examples it might have a bit more meaning, then just one bike of each type.Same day too..

My experience doesn't jive with yours. But I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe coupled with physical differences. I just can't call the Mk I or Mk III slow to turn in or needing any effort, regardless of whether they are shod with Sport Demons or Michelin Pilot Activs (the only tires I've ever used on other).

As for Dynos, I know people get all bent out of shape regarding comparing one to another, but multiple sources (MCN back in the day, Motorcyclist.com, Cycleworld, MotoUSA.com etc.) have put multiple press bikes in the same ballparks enough that I can believe the Mk I, Mk II, or Mk III numbers as real enough.

[chrisfer]

Torque curves are only for engines, and wide open throttle.
The gear ratios are different on V7, V7 II and V7 III and they affect the feeling of torque.


The V7 II has the shortest first gear.

[Iron Cross Junction]

^^^

This

I realize we're not talking about powerhouses in any of these bikes, but dynos suggest the Mk I and Mk II are pretty similar and the Mk III have a definite bump relative to them. That agrees with my experience with the feel on my Mk I vs my Mk III.

I guess I still really like the feel on the Mk I, but I'm not sure I agree with the Stornello cult that I like it MORE.

Then again, when the Stornello came out people talked about the map being different or the feel of the motor being different because of that exhaust. So who knows, maybe there is a difference between the Stornello and the rest of the V7s.

"Stornello cult" ... I like that.   

Maybe the "difference between the Stornello and the rest of the V7s" is more a cult thing.  You're a Jeep guy; you might understand.   

Hey, my first car was a Studebaker coupe.  That may explain everything.   

Bill

[Brand X]

Unless you went for a back to back ride with  Good radial, and stock Demons you might just might be use to the feel of the Demons.. Night, and day. Very pronounced difference. Not saying the sport Demons did not work well enough, just wanted to go straight and took way more effort to turn.

[Kev m]

Unless you went for a back to back ride with  Good radial, and stock Demons you might just might be use to the feel of the Demons.. Night, and day. Very pronounced difference. Not saying the sport Demons did not work well enough, just wanted to go straight and took way more effort to turn.

Perhaps to all.

Or perhaps the subjective nature of what is being discussed.

I've said many times over the years that I find the V7s to be nimble, almost to the point of twitchy.

When I ride them back-to-back with each other or other bikes in the fleet I've never thought of them taking ANY effort to turn in, never mind "way more" whether on Demons or Michelins, whether coming off the RK or the Monster...

It's not particularly important. IT may mean I'm a blunt instrument or there could be physical differences (size, strength) or mechanical differences that lead me to these differences in perception.

I point it out only so the OP or others can realize they may also agree or disagree in their own perception when the time comes.

[usedtobefast]

I have been back and forth on this comparison as well.  In the end, it ain't a whole lot of difference.  If I was looking for a v7 ii or iii, I would get the one that looked great, was priced right, and well taken care of (low miles, good maintenance/care). 

The v7 iii does have a large number of changes vs the ii.  If you like chrome pipes, the iii pipes are double walled and they don't discolor from heat like the ii does.  The iii also has improvements in the internal oiling system, shifting, and clutch.  Not 100% what they were, maybe no big improvement.

When I bought my iii , it was at the time I had new ii or new iii models to choose from.  I test rode both and liked the iii better.  Seemed to rev up faster, felt more sporty/zippy, a bit more modern.  Then 2 years later I found a great deal on a ii and bought it.  They are both fun.  You really gotta ride them back to back to notice the differences.  Like if you rode some guys ii in Dec and then some other iii in Jan, you'd be scratching your head trying to remember and compare. 

I really like buying 1 owner used bikes (vs. multiple owners).  That way you can talk to the person that has had it, see where it was stored (garage or street), get an idea of how it was maintained and used, etc. 

The other thing you didn't mention ... the idea of buying a new v7 850.  Much more expensive, but everything brand new and 2 yr warranty. 

[Dirk_S]

The other thing you didn't mention ... the idea of buying a new v7 850.  Much more expensive, but everything brand new and 2 yr warranty.

In previous posts, Jeff mentioned that a used V7 would be more in his wheelhouse.

That said…isn’t Guzzi now going with FOUR year warranties? Thought I read that somewhere…

[Brand X]

The way the tires (sport demons) turn in on my Stornello is my take, and just maybe a few very rare riders could not feel the difference..That is my perspective too, and just about everything said in this thread follows  that line. The guy needs to ride the bikes for himself , and going by others perceptions is almost meaningless. Magazine testers are the worst overall judges of what a bike does.     

[Kev m]

The way the tires (sport demons) turn in on my Stornello is my take, and just maybe a few very rare riders could not feel the difference..That is my perspective too, and just about everything said in this thread follows  that line. The guy needs to ride the bikes for himself , and going by others perceptions is almost meaningless. Magazine testers are the worst overall judges of what a bike does.   

Fair enough 

[Mwether]

Holy crow!

You guys are amazing. I go away for a few hours and come back to the Rosetta Stone (of Stones?) to decode. While I haven't yet had the time to do a close read, I THINK consensus may be emerging around the following ideas:

• V7s have become increasingly refined with each iteration. This development has been a double-edged sword in that some of said refinement may have come at the cost of lessening the wonderfully simple and elemental nature that makes Guzzis Guzzis? (Not that I necessarily understand that, since my experience with the marque is essentially non-existent.)
• Ultimately, don't sweat it, since these differences are small and likely only noticeable when different iterations are ridden back-to-back.

As a follow-up, maybe you all can help me calibrate my expectations...

I'm looking for the kind of twin torque my 2005 Multi had. Obviously not nearly as much in ft-lbs, but the same sort of shifting-is-largely-optional delivery. Just a broad flat curve, where you can ride the twisties with the throttle functioning pretty much like a rheostat.

The below review (of the 850) describing a non-linear "doggy," and "stair-stepped" powerband is concerning. Am I missing nuance here, or is this guy all wet, perhaps?

The 2021 Moto Guzzi V7 Special E5’s powerplant confounds expectations that it would have a linear powerband. As it works out, it’s something of a three-stage rocket, with the understanding that there are rockets of varying sizes and performance levels.

Below 3000 rpm, the motor is doggy, and then it’s time for fun. Although it’s not an issue pulling away from a stoplight, the motor balks at roll-ons when running below 3000 rpm. Above that, it’s a peppy performer. Moto Guzzi brags that 80 percent of the peak torque is available from 3000 rpm onwards, and it’s clear why the PR folks seized on that number.

There’s another boost at about 5000 rpm. That is where the two-valve motor hits its torque peak of 54 ft-lbs. The surge continues to a peak of 65 horsepower at 6800 rpm, just before the rev limiter kicks in, and after the 6500 rpm redline on the old school analog-style tachometer.

While the stairstep powerband could be a problem for a higher-powered machine, it adds to the character of the V7 Special’s riding experience. On a retro motorcycle such as the V7, we’re used to a linear power delivery that is efficient, if not exciting. The V7 adds a dollop of satisfaction as you feel those extra nudges along the way through the limited rev range. One would think that an effective rev range of 3000 to 7000 rpm might make the V7 a challenging ride. However, the plentiful torque prevents you from having to row the gearbox endlessly.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2021/05/10/2021-moto-guzzi-v7-special-e5-review-18-fast-facts/

I wish this were a case where "just go ride one" was the answer, but there are precisely zero for sale around me and new isn't in the cards.

::goes back to read every word in the thread. carefully::

[Brand X]

My Stornello is much closer to the power output  of my 2017/ XT250, than my 2009/ 1100 Monster.(ECU-Pipes)

[Mwether]

My Stornello is much closer to the power output  of my 2017/ XT250, than my 2009/ 1100 Monster.(ECU-Pipes)

 

My Multi was the 1000 engine (with Termis), but I get it! In the two-fiddy dept., I also had (and loved) a Kawi Super Sherpa.

I know the V7's torque won't be the relative tidal wave the Duc's was, I'm just hoping that what's there comes on and stays on! 

[Mwether]

I thought the OP had raised this before and had many responses.  But, as with oil threads and the like, I can revisit this sort of discussion every day.   

This gave me the LOLs, Bill, as more and more I don't remember what I had for lunch.

I was glad to check the older thread and be reminded that my original dilemma was about pre-2000 vs. post-2013 bikes.

Having answered that question with everyone's help, this is now about modern V7s vs. other modern V7s. I think that represents some small kind of progress!