Help needed troubleshooting V 11 Sport

[John Croucher]

That’s great information. What I was used to is the injectors getting power from the ECU which was regulated and stabilized in the 11.? range, I don’t remember the exact voltage but below standard battery and charging voltages to take the voltage side fluctuation out of the equation. I looked at a print and injectors, coils, fuel pump all powered through a relay connected to the battery. I can see how this can play a big role in engine performance and operation. You can do a voltage drop test if you think any of the wires, relay or terminals are suspect. You can also use jumper cables connected to a car battery, don’t start the car, to see if it makes a difference.

A problem I found was the ignition switch was sending voltage when testing.  But, the contacts in the ignition switch were corroded and the amperage was low.  When I was chasing wires and checking voltage, I would get a 12+ reading, but the turn signal, gauge lights, brake lights would not work because of the corrosion in the ignition switch contact would not put enough amp's through.  There are three sets of contacts in an ignition switch.  Feed power through different circuits.

[bigbikerrick]

I have heard it mentioned here many times, where the ignition switch, can be a failure point, especially on older tonti Guzzi, it  should be taken apart,and the contacts cleaned and greased, if suspect.
Rick

[Shiny Hat]

I have heard it mentioned here many times, where the ignition switch, can be a failure point, especially on older tonti Guzzi, it  should be taken apart,and the contacts cleaned and greased, if suspect.
Rick

Makes sense, when I move from ignition off to steering lock, about half way in the rotation, the lights will come on. If I go past lock to lock and parking lights they might or might not come on. Looks like my switch might need some attention. Thanks to you and John.

[PJPR01]

I have ordered the lonelec cable for Guzzi diag. I have not used Guzzidiag in a long time,and need to familiarize myself with it. What can I check or adjust through Guzzidiag, that I cant do with just the multimeter method for setting the TPS, etc?

Once you get Guzzidiag connected and if you can get the bike warmed up enough to idle, check the CO Trim.  If it's wildly negative or positive, set it to zero for starters and you can adjust it in 5 or 10 point increments.

One thing I didn't see..did the bike just begin one day to the next to have problems or was it a steady deterioration over time?

Presumably the rubber / nitron seals on the air bleed screws are intact and providing a good seal?

How do the throttle body rubbers look, fore and after of the throttle body...mounted correctly also?

Any stickiness in the TPS itself...can be tested by using the multi meter also...presumably smooth from 157 mv to 4.78 at WOT (with linkage disconnected, high idle screw loose and both idle screws backed off and not touching)...It could have a bad TPS unless it's been replaced recently.

[bigbikerrick]

I will have to check the CO when I get Guzzidiag,and the lonelec cable, PJPR01. My friend was riding the bike from Utah to AZ over 3 days,and the bike suddenly  started acting up in the middle of the trip, and stayed that way. I think it started acting up from one day to the next. As far as the other stuff, the O ring seals on the air bleed screws are in good shape, as well as the manifold rubbers.  Those were sprayed with carb cleaner looking for air leaks,and none were found. The TPS seems fine, I  even temporarily replaced with one from my  98 EV, and it made no difference. I set both up to 157mv and 525  mv at idle. The TBs were also thoroughly cleaned inside as well as the butterfly valves, and the air bleed screws. They were pretty dirty with black residue.
thanks
Rick.

[PJPR01]

Cool....that almost sounds like a tank of bad gas since nothing else mechanical seems to be jumping out as an obvious issue, perhaps there is water in the gas..tried any fuel treatment or draining and re-filling with a fresh tank? 

[bigbikerrick]

Cool....that almost sounds like a tank of bad gas since nothing else mechanical seems to be jumping out as an obvious issue, perhaps there is water in the gas..tried any fuel treatment or draining and re-filling with a fresh tank?

After the bike started running bad, on the road, according to the owner about 3-4 more tankfulls of different gas was run through it, with no change in performance. When my friend brought the bike to me, he had just filled the tank to the top  again. The bike is running so rich, that by starting it and just testing/ running  it in my garage, the fuel light is already turning on, and there is only about 1/4 tank of fuel left!  I can remove the tank,and dump the gas into a container to make sure there is no water ,or any other contaminants.
 Its better to leave no stone unturned!
thanks
Rick D.

[fotoguzzi]

I didn’t read through all this again.. has anyone suggested you try a different ECU?
I have one I would gladly ship to you but it’s marked Quota and I’m not even sure it’s good.  But you could flash it with a new map for the V11 if you want to try that.

[Huzo]

Someone here suggested using a dot of quick set jbweld or equivalent on the end of the sensor to set the clearance. I recently used that trick on a 99 special sport so I wouldn’t have to open the timing chest for a measurement. The residual oil on the phonic wheel acts like a release and I cut the dot apart with a razor and got an accurate measurement that way .

Jeez..
Now THAT is a good idea..

[Huzo]

Without reading all of the foregoing..
Can you remove the timing plug and ascertain exactly where the left cylinder should fire and mark it. Then attach a good Xenon timing light and run the bike up, perhaps you can see if the anomaly coincides with an errant fluctuation in the timing.
It would be great if you could eliminate either spark or fuel.
I did notice the ball joints on the cross linkage on my Norge, were  heavily worn and could rattle up or down quite a bit and thus throw the TB balance out to glory.
On one occasion I applied a slight load on the linkage and it disconnected…!

[bigbikerrick]

Hey Huzo, thats a good idea, to evaluate spark quality and consistency.Since the timing is not adjustable like with a distributor, on this bike, I never thought to use the timing light that way, but I will check it out, when I get home to where the bike is in a couple days.  The linkage rod seems to fit well on this bike. It would be helpful, to isolate the problem to either spark, or fuel.
thank you
Rick.

[Huzo]

No worries.

[bigbikerrick]

I didn’t read through all this again.. has anyone suggested you try a different ECU?
I have one I would gladly ship to you but it’s marked Quota and I’m not even sure it’s good.  But you could flash it with a new map for the V11 if you want to try that.

Thats very nice of you to offer the ECU to rule that out, Brad.. I may just take you up on the offer, if  I dont find any other cause.  I should be back where the bike is in a day or two, and I plan to hook up Guzzidiag, and re set everything back to baseline, to make sure I didnt miss anything. If at that point , no solution is found, I will get with you on the quota ECU. A couple of guys suggested it may just be the ecu.
thanks alot,
Rick D.

[pressureangle]

Something to consider;

A poor ignition circuit results in low voltage to the ECU; the ECU adjusts the injector timing for voltage, because they act slower with reducing voltage and fuel pressure may be affected to some extent as well. If there's some way for the ECU to see low voltage with the injectors seeing true voltage, they will be very rich. Not something I've observed personally, but I know it's in there.

[Shiny Hat]

Strange one for sure. Looking forward to the cause for this one the tank slapper and the one that looses compression in one cylinder when warm.

[John Croucher]

Something to consider;

A poor ignition circuit results in low voltage to the ECU; the ECU adjusts the injector timing for voltage, because they act slower with reducing voltage and fuel pressure may be affected to some extent as well. If there's some way for the ECU to see low voltage with the injectors seeing true voltage, they will be very rich. Not something I've observed personally, but I know it's in there.

[bigbikerrick]

I can see where corrosion in the ignition switch can cause problems. What year/model Guzzi is that from, John?   I will be getting back to the bike in a few days. Will follow up with what I find. Thanks Guys!
Rick D.

[bigbikerrick]

Hello Folks, a follow up here. I decided to do a compression test on the bike and found the right side only has about 30 psi, the left side 145-150 psi. The valve lash is within spec. I added a couple of ounces of oil through the spark plug hole and rechecked the compression. right side only went up to 35-40, left side still at 150 psi.
 what do you guys think? No Bueno, eh?  This is after I replaced the crank position sensor and the plug wires and caps! Its no wonder, that I could not get the bike to idle,and run correctly 
Thanks alot
Rick

[guzzisteve]

I have seen them run on 80psi but barely, you found it.

[Chuck in Indiana]

A leak down tester will tell you whether it's rings and/or valves.. It might save you from doing the heads and then finding the rings are bad, too. 

[PJPR01]

Wow…very interesting find…how many miles are on the bike?  Sudden compression loss…how would that occur?  Gunk that didn’t burn up from the fuel or low oil level…doesn’t compression usually go out gradually not one second to another?

[bigbikerrick]

A leak down tester will tell you whether it's rings and/or valves.. It might save you from doing the heads and then finding the rings are bad, too. 

We tried a leakdown test, could not get it to hold any pressure on either side. I think I did it right, I placed the cylinder I was testing at TDC of compression stroke, and pumped it up with my air compressor up to 80 psi. no pressure would hold on the gauge of the tester. we added a few ounces of oil, to each cylinder,and re tested. Still did not hold any pressure on either side. could hear air through the dipstick hole, nothing through the intake or exhaust that I can tell.  Did I do something wrong with the way I did the test?
thanks
Rick

[bigbikerrick]

my friend bought the bike used, it has speedhut instruments, so mileage unknown. Owners guesstimates around 30K.  It started running bad ,on a 3 day highway ride from northern Utah to southern Arizona, a 3 day ride. It started not wanting to idle, and became hard to start mid way during the trip. The owner did ride it at 100 mph a few tmes,and states it ran real strong at top end. Crazy huh, how well it ran with such low compression on one side!
Rick.

[Chuck in Indiana]

We tried a leakdown test, could not get it to hold any pressure on either side. I think I did it right, I placed the cylinder I was testing at TDC of compression stroke, and pumped it up with my air compressor up to 80 psi. no pressure would hold on the gauge of the tester. we added a few ounces of oil, to each cylinder,and re tested. Still did not hold any pressure on either side. could hear air through the dipstick hole, nothing through the intake or exhaust that I can tell.  Did I do something wrong with the way I did the test?
thanks
Rick

(scratching head) Something wrong there..

[pressureangle]

my friend bought the bike used, it has speedhut instruments, so mileage unknown. Owners guesstimates around 30K.  It started running bad ,on a 3 day highway ride from northern Utah to southern Arizona, a 3 day ride. It started not wanting to idle, and became hard to start mid way during the trip. The owner did ride it at 100 mph a few tmes,and states it ran real strong at top end. Crazy huh, how well it ran with such low compression on one side!
Rick.

I'll propose a bent valve.

[Moparnut72]

With air escaping from the crankcase during the leakdown test I am suspecting a holed piston. I think rings wouldn't fail that quickly unless one broke but even so I don't think compression would drop that drastically with a broken ring. Detonation?
kk

[Shiny Hat]

We tried a leakdown test, could not get it to hold any pressure on either side. I think I did it right, I placed the cylinder I was testing at TDC of compression stroke, and pumped it up with my air compressor up to 80 psi. no pressure would hold on the gauge of the tester. we added a few ounces of oil, to each cylinder,and re tested. Still did not hold any pressure on either side. could hear air through the dipstick hole, nothing through the intake or exhaust that I can tell.  Did I do something wrong with the way I did the test?
thanks
Rick

Yes, I believe something was done incorrectly. Make sure the cylinder being tested is at TDC compression stroke. Put the bike in gear and apply the brake. When pressurizing the cylinder it can push the piston down and rotate the engine, be sure it stays at TDC. The cylinder showing 150 psi should definitely pass a leak down test.
Air in the crankcase is normal during a leak test even on a new engine. The gauge will show you how much of a loss.

In reality all this is pointless because the cylinder with 30 psi will need the head removed, something has to be repaired. If you want a guess it’s a burnt exhaust valve but you have to remove the head anyway so that will answer the question. If for some reason you don’t want to pull the head on the bad cylinder use a bore scope.

Best of luck.

[guzzisteve]

For a leak down I put motor at BDC after TDC when I loosen tappets & remove pushrods. No gear, no brake needed. Then I can bang on ea valve & see how they seal & you don't have to worry about rotation. Be aware it makes a big bang when you hit the valve.

[Shiny Hat]

For a leak down I put motor at BDC after TDC when I loosen tappets & remove pushrods. No gear, no brake needed. Then I can bang on ea valve & see how they seal & you don't have to worry about rotation. Be aware it makes a big bang when you hit the valve.

That is an unnecessary process and the long way round for a simple leak down test but if it works for you that’s fine.
If cylinder scoring is what you’re looking for throughout the piston travel then BTD and TDC is not enough plus it’s making a quick simple test complicated. A compression and leak down will get the average person a starting point.

I also wouldn’t tell members to bang a valve open, they can drive the valve into the piston and create a problem that did not exist, sorry, that is bad advice.

[guzzisteve]

Haven't had any issues hitting valve at BDC  in over 50yrs so I don't think I'll have one. I'm out, if your an expert like the rest here, you fix it. NO WONDER every tech leaves this place, the TROLL factor is terrible.