Quickshifter for V85?

[YellowDuck]

For me it's only sensible / useful under full throttle acceleration.  It definitely decreased your zero to 60 (or to whatever) time compared to clutching the upshifts.  Nobody uses the clutch while accelerating on a race track. 

[Huzo]

For me it's only sensible / useful under full throttle acceleration.  It definitely decreased your zero to 60 (or to whatever) time compared to clutching the upshifts.  Nobody uses the clutch while accelerating on a race track.

Using Casey Stoner as an example.
One of the on board cameras he had on the Ducati showed his left hand, he used the clutch on downshifts.

[Bulldog9]

The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
 Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” 
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?

I understand your 'theoretical concerns', and I don't disagree that improperly done it could and would do damage, but done properly, as I have stated before, no damage, no spooge on the magnetic plug, and no issues at all.

Yamaha XS1100 - 132K miles
Yamaha XS750 - 48K miles
Norge - 55K miles
1200 Sport - 72K miles +/-
Stornello 13K miles
Griso 15K miles
Baby Breva 22K (?) miles

No issues ever.

Lightly preload the shift lever up or down.............. blip the throttle gear shifts smoothly, then back on the throttle. As I said before, the CARC big blocks are the toughest to make smooth, but it is doable.

Have done, will do PROPERLY when I am in the mood, NOT when accelerating hard, is for easy relaxed riding and my borderline crippled increasingly arthritic and tendonitis filled left hand thanks me......

But that infirmity is only the last 5 years, I have been doing this on my XS11 since 1986, and the GRiSO since 2015..... Stornello since 2016. Again ALL without issue, without ANY evidence of abuse, wear or chuncks/spooge in the transmission.  I do it because I want to, like to, and will continue to.

[Huzo]

Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.

[SIR REAL ED]

The last few responses are very encouraging, because at least they acknowledge that there are factors at play that deserve addressing.
Yellowduck says that he has done this practice over many years on multiple bikes.
This I suggest is where the problem resides…
It is not an issue where you do it on many bikes over a number of years, because each bike has a (relatively) minimal exposure to the torture, it’s when you do it on one bike over many years.
The potential damage is cumulative.
I do like the post that talks about the time between disengagement and engagement of the next gear, as when the alteration of the flywheel rpm must occur.
This is what I’ve been banging on about all along.
It is the almost total lack of cushioning of the shock through the gear train when the new gear is slammed home, that I suggest is the source of the potential damage or wear.
This is over tens of thousands of cycles.
 Now y’all may say that there is cushioning in the springs within the clutch body that “soaks up” the shock.
Garbage…
Those springs compress about 4 mm maximum before they coil bind, that is going to be around 3 or 4 degrees of crankshaft rotation and at 3,000 rpm (50 revs per second), y’all can do the math and tell me how long it takes to rotate 4 degrees at those rpm..
It comes down to thousandths of a second..
You can safely call it zero time that you are smashing those revs down or up. Deceleration shock is the same as accelleration shock, it is a cruel force that is instantaneously applied either way and the energy has to go somewhere.
Imagine you have a flywheel of equal mass in a test rig and it’s rotating at 3,000 rpm, you have a one metre lever on the supporting shaft to which you can apply an instant brake so as to drop those revs by 1,000 in less than 0.1 seconds.
How much force will that apply to the end of your one metre lever ?
A shitload would be an acccurate assessment and that is over ONE metre, now consider the RADIUS of your gear in the ‘box..
It’s about 25 mm, so that force that you felt on the end of the one metre lever in the test rig, can be multiplied by 40, because torque is force x distance.
This my friends, is what you are asking your gearbox to endure, many many tens of thousands of times in it’s life, just so you can “save yourself the trouble” of “pulling in the clutch….” 
I’ll leave y’all with the elephant in the room question regarding changing without the clutch…..Why ?

The trick is to release the load on the drivetrain, which is the purpose of hitting the kill switch or blipping the throttle.  If you don't release the load, it will not be a smooth shift.  Just like switching from 4WD back to 2WD in a truck.  No need to be in neutral just punch it and shift between the "acceleration" and the "engine braking" mode.

My Dad's construction company had lots of beat up old vehicles that needed more maintenance than they got.  One driver shifted a truck so smoothly, that was notorious for shifting poorly.

"George, how are you getting that useless POS to shift so smoothly?"
"I either don't use the clutch at all, or I double clutch it!  Plus you need to rev it up a bit between gears.  As long as the transmission shaft is spinning the same speed when you leave one gear and enter the next gear, it will engage smoothly."

I've been in the cab with him when he was driving that hunk of junk, and he was not lying.  He made shifting without the clutch smooth and effortless.

[SIR REAL ED]

I asked the same question at the end of my response also and even though I do it quite frequently I don’t have a reasonable explanation. Possibly because on my bike it’s always just so smooth and trouble free. I don’t have to move anything except my left foot about a 1/4”.
In my case maybe just to lazy to move more body parts than necessary 🤔🤣

Give yourself some credit Dan, some day you might need that minute amount of movement in your left hand and luckily, that hand will work like brand new.

[SIR REAL ED]

Lightly preload the shift lever up or down.............. blip the throttle gear shifts smoothly, then back on the throttle. As I said before, the CARC big blocks are the toughest to make smooth, but it is doable.

There you are folks!  That's the technique!

Works for motorcycles, dump trucks, and pick up trucks.

Operator skill and mechanical sensitivity is required, other wise, stick with using the clutch!!

[PeteS]

Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.

I doubt you will get an answer here. It appears the only group that might help are road racers who use quick shifters all the time.
We have learned that apparently no one has put one on a V85 yet which was the original question, and the only Guzzis that have them are a few V100s. I doubt any of those have had their gearboxes opened up yet.
Add to that there are as many gearbox designs as their are bikes. So while most of us actually understand the question, few have the answer.

Pete

[Bulldog9]

Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.

I thought I answered you concern on 'wear and abuse of the dogs' by showing clearly that I have never seen an ounce of evidence that there is increased or significant wear of the dogs as evidenced during fluid changes or function over many miles and many bikes. Surely you would agree that if there was severe or significant wear on the dogs, it would be evidenced by metallic debris or residue (AKA spooge) on the drain plug magnet.

But perhaps I am missing your question?

The fact that Donald Duck is a total klutz and famous for being uncoordinated aside , and may not be the best anecdote, I offer the following as my final foray on this topic.

My technique (again) is: Light pressure on shift lever up or down, adjustment of throttle (AKA blip) to find that 'neutral' spot to let the dog slide easily, and you are in the next gear up or down.

On upshifts, I release or let off the throttle just enough so that the lever moves easily. Once shift is complete, the throttle is reapplied and acceleration continues. Harder to describe downshifts, and frequently, the transmission easily cooperates by snicking into the lower gear. Its an instinctual thing, but I will often raise the throttle a bit to again, take pressure off the dogs so the shift happens smoothly.

For ME, this is for casual easy riding and ac/de-celleration, and key is setting the throttle so that the gear shift lever easily selects the next gear up or down.

I should also restate several other factors.
1. Properly adjusted throttle cables. Slack makes this messy and far more difficult
2. Properly adjusted shift lever. Efficient control is essential as this is a 'by feel' exercise. A loose or poorly adjusted shift lever with too much play, or poor toe engagement makes it more difficult.
3. CARC bikes are more difficult and can be a bit lurchy. Of my 4 CARC oriented bikes, they all have a very different personality and response. I've never been able to get the GRiSO to cooperate smoothly, so I rarely do it, though I will still try on occasion.
4. I dont ALWAYS shift this way, but do so frequently enough, especially while moving at speed and shifting gears on non technical roads.

I've also stated that the CARC bikes, likely due to the large flywheels are the most difficult to do smoothly, especially on upshifts. The gear lever easily slides to the next gear, but if I dont feather and let off the throttle enough the bike will lurch or jump forward just as if you let off the clutch too fast on acceleration. It's not as big of a deal on downshifts.  The Stornello and Baby Breva are no drama up or down.

Thus, I'll say again that with proper technique, it is unnecessary on a V85 IMNSHO....... I know they sell the Mandello and MANY sport bikes have them for those who want to pretend they are Nicky Hayden and bang through the gears clutchlessly, but thats not my style, and wasn't even when I was young.

I have friends who have and will never try clutchless shifting. That's fine by me, I'm not looking to make converts. But my experience in 40 years and high mileage rides have shown no deleterious effects on longevity or function. That's all I am saying.

Don't like the idea? dont do it. NUF SAID

I understand your concerns, and you are not wrong in principle, but you are also not right in your assertions that this is death and abuse to a transmission.

[SIR REAL ED]

I understand your concerns, and you are not wrong in principle, but you are also not right in your assertions that this is death and abuse to a transmission.

That is a pretty good summary of this thread.

Take the load off the drive train, by either using the clutch, the kill switch, or rolling the throttle on/off, and if there is enough time for the gear dogs to engage fully, the wear on the transmission gears will probably be similar with all three methods.

It would be a fascinating experiment to strap two identical motorcycles to two different dynos, automate both to run 300,000 miles.  One would perform clutch upshift and down shifts, the other clutchless upshifts and downshifts with good technique.

Every 20,000 miles, change oil and filter.  Save all the loose metal.

After 300,000 miles measure the gears, the clutch, and weigh all the metal in the oil and filters.

Would not surprise me if there was very little difference in wear.

[SIR REAL ED]

Reading this thread, did the thought go thru anyone else's mind:

"Quick shifter for a Moto Guzzi?  Isn't that like traction control for a Yamaha TW200?"

[2dogs]

A V85 needs a quickshifter like a fish needs a bicycle

[bad Chad]

Ahh, but Huzo, you seem to be negating the clear benefit a speed shift offers by way of saving thousands upon thousands of unnecessary shift linkage/clutch movement wear!  Come on Man, clutch cable/hydraulic line can only do a finite number of uses before failure, surly you must concede your misguided notions are BS?

[Bulldog9]

Reading this thread, did the thought go thru anyone else's mind:

"Quick shifter for a Moto Guzzi?  Isn't that like traction control for a Yamaha TW200?"

I wish there was a spit your bourbon through your nose  emoji......

[SIR REAL ED]

Now on some Harleys, a quick shifter might knock a couple seconds off the 1/4 time.....

[michaell32]

I never understood why some people ask if a motorcycle needs something. If we based our motorcycle related purchases off needs, then no one here would have a motorcycle at all because it's not needed. The question should be do you want it. If a guzzi had a lightweight rotating assembly and clutch system and close ratio transmission then yes, I really want one.

[1wild1]

Good answer Bulldog, not to the question I posed, but good answer.
No one is going to try to understand my point…
No one.
The concern is not how well or otherwise you can make the shift…..Does everyone get that ?
It is what the dogs are being asked to do when they engage, absolutely sweet bugger all to to with “technique”. Donald Duck could shift the gear and the dogs would still have the same task to perform.
As an aside, when you blip the throttle, is that on an upshift or downshift ?
On an upshift, what is the process you do for the blip and when you blip for the downshift, what do you do then ?
Can you detail what you do with the throttle for each ?
That is your hand, not foot.

No one has to tell you.  just was the first 5 minutes of this video and he will show you clutchless upshifts on a V85TT. Both hand in the shot so you can actually see and hear what he is doing. Worry about downshifts later.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=m30TlPbeNDeQncSp
 

ps, there's a yamaha scr950 sitting in my collection that has a bad second gear.  Note for son, It's not made for wheelies in second gear.  So I completely get why you have the questions you do. The torque on a driveline is no joke, but a 3-500 rpm difference when there is no stress on the drivetrain is no where near the limit.  Reving the motor up some and releasing the clutch loads a bunch of torque on the driveline. As you said there are springs on the clutch and there are cushions in the final drive.  the dog gears engage with the same force of speed difference when unloaded. clutch or throttle is no difference on the gears.
https://youtu.be/H9AfflC2yRE?si=m30TlPbeNDeQncSp

[Huzo]

Ok guys, because of the Pacific Ocean, I can’t sit at the same table at the same time and watch y’all duck for cover, so I have no option but to leave it there.
However you are still answering the question I did not pose, because you all had the answer ready that you wanted to give.
You think I am asking how to get a good clutchless shifts, I do it for a living in 16 litre turbo diesel Kenworths with Eaton Fuller non synchro ‘boxes.
Do you think I do not know how to change without the clutch ? The phenomenal advances that have been made in metallurgy and gearbox design, has allowed you to be an unadulterated butcher to your gearbox and can do so with minimal repurcussions to your wallet.
Go ahead and continue to abuse your gearbox and sell it before you have to face the consequences of your mechanical non sympathy and have a good day.

[Bulldog9]

Ok guys, because of the Pacific Ocean, I can’t sit at the same table at the same time and watch y’all duck for cover, so I have no option but to leave it there.
However you are still answering the question I did not pose, because you all had the answer ready that you wanted to give.
You think I am asking how to get a good clutchless shifts, I do it for a living in 16 litre turbo diesel Kenworths with Eaton Fuller non synchro ‘boxes.
Do you think I do not know how to change without the clutch ? The phenomenal advances that have been made in metallurgy and gearbox design, has allowed you to be an unadulterated butcher to your gearbox and can do so with minimal repurcussions to your wallet.
Go ahead and continue to abuse your gearbox and sell it before you have to face the consequences of your mechanical non sympathy and have a good day.

No ducking here brother............ Believe what you want, do what you want, or not. But I will remind you that YOU raised the objection, asserted that it was 'unadulterated butchering' and you requested technique and justification. I get it. Believe what you want.

When you finally come to the US, how about you and I spend a couple days to tear down my 130K + mile XS1100, often shifted clutchless by me since 1986 over a case of beer and pounds of American Grilled Beef, and we report the findings? Will be great fun, and the house is in the middle of the Appalachians with thousands of miles of amazing roads. I'll even let you pick your ride, from the Convert, 70K Mile 1200 Sport, 50K Mile 8V Norge, or the Griso. Heck, I'll even let you take the Mello Yello Stornello TT.... ;-)   

[kingoffleece]

FWIW: I still use the clutch all the time and match revs.  Kinda part of the fun of riding.

[Moparnut72]

Although most truck drivers float gears Fuller Eaton says don't do it. 
kk

[Ncdan]

No ducking here brother............ Believe what you want, do what you want, or not. But I will remind you that YOU raised the objection, asserted that it was 'unadulterated butchering' and you requested technique and justification. I get it. Believe what you want.

When you finally come to the US, how about you and I spend a couple days to tear down my 130K + mile XS1100, often shifted clutchless by me since 1986 over a case of beer and pounds of American Grilled Beef, and we report the findings? Will be great fun, and the house is in the middle of the Appalachians with thousands of miles of amazing roads. I'll even let you pick your ride, from the Convert, 70K Mile 1200 Sport, 50K Mile 8V Norge, or the Griso. Heck, I'll even let you take the Mello Yello Stornello TT.... ;-)

Good response.
I do hear Our friend, Pete’s , point and one must agree that if something did go wrong when preforming a “no clutch shift”, could be catastrophic for a transmission or clutch assembly, possibly. We must also admit that when, with possible exceptions, that if a motorcycle has a clutch that by design it should be engaged when shifting gears.
To argue these points are at best a little nearsighted and at worst down right indefensible.
That being said, as I said in an earlier post I do frequently shift gears, especially the last 3, on my 1983 Honda CB1000C. This bike probably due to a superior design shifts flawlessly using this technique when the rider has experience in doing the unorthodox technique.
This being said, I don’t think all motorcycles transmissions can be safely shifted without using the clutch as designed.
I attempted doing it on a couple of my Guzzis and it was instantly obvious that this practice was not a good idea due to the gears grinding or lunging/jerking when going in gear. And I did use the same technique as the Honda.
I guess the bottom line is that it’s everyone’s personal preference since they paid good money for their bikes and can treat them any way they like.
Either way, I really don’t give a shift🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[bad Chad]

I'm on board with you all.   I don't have a bike with a QS, never tried one, and don't expect to ever own one.   I kinda of like he whole order of operations, minus an occasional clutches up shift.  But it is kind of fun to watch folks twist into knots trying to save themselves, figuratively of course.

[SIR REAL ED]

Well said Dan.

I enjoy these theoretical threads simple exactly because they are theoretical.  Arguments & opinions ad infinitum!

If one ever gets the chance to tear down two identical motorcycles with similar mileage, and measure wear, the discussion of the which variable caused how much wear will start all over again. 

Oil type, oil change intervals, cheap tires or good tires on the which bike, driven in Kansas or West Virginia, did either rider use more engine braking or apply the brakes more, rider weight, luggage weight, wind load, road speed, etc. etc. etc.

During Design Review Boards in the engineering world, these discussions often end when one or more of the participants says: "Oh yeah?  Why don't you prove it!" 
At which point usually everyone agrees there is no way to prove their point conclusively.

"Yeah! You're right!  I can't prove my point.  Lets go to lunch and we can argue sports, current events, etc."

To my Simple Mind, as long as the drivetrain is unloaded for a sufficient amount of time for the gear dogs to engage fully, (full bearing area is attained before the load is re-applied), the wear on the gear dog bearing areas will be the same whether the drive train was unloaded with the clutch, an ignition kill switch, or adept throttle manipulation.

Now can we all agree that buying cheap rear tires with minimal traction is a fine way to minimize transmission wear?

Be kind to your transmissions, Hose that read tire down with Armor All before you ride!!!

Imagine the wear on the Yamaha TW200 transmission.....

[Ncdan]

Well said Dan.

I enjoy these theoretical threads simple exactly because they are theoretical.  Arguments & opinions ad infinitum!

If one ever gets the chance to tear down two identical motorcycles with similar mileage, and measure wear, the discussion of the which variable caused how much wear will start all over again. 

Oil type, oil change intervals, cheap tires or good tires on the which bike, driven in Kansas or West Virginia, did either rider use more engine braking or apply the brakes more, rider weight, luggage weight, wind load, road speed, etc. etc. etc.

During Design Review Boards in the engineering world, these discussions often end when one or more of the participants says: "Oh yeah?  Why don't you prove it!" 
At which point usually everyone agrees there is no way to prove their point conclusively.

"Yeah! You're right!  I can't prove my point.  Lets go to lunch and we can argue sports, current events, etc."

To my Simple Mind, as long as the drivetrain is unloaded for a sufficient amount of time for the gear dogs to engage fully, (full bearing area is attained before the load is re-applied), the wear on the gear dog bearing areas will be the same whether the drive train was unloaded with the clutch, an ignition kill switch, or adept throttle manipulation.

Now can we all agree that buying cheap rear tires with minimal traction is a fine way to minimize transmission wear?

Be kind to your transmissions, Hose that read tire down with Armor All before you ride!!!

Imagine the wear on the Yamaha TW200 transmission.....

Well….i reckon that since it’s too cold for most of the WGC members to ride we’ve got to have something for entertainment?
And one must admit some of the guys here are very entertaining.
Also one must admit that our opinions and differences are always more entertaining and productive with guys like Peter, alias HUZO, as well as a couple others here.
It’s also very satisfying to see that even our differences and disagreements are debated with respect for each other.
Hats off to all👍

NCDan/Danny