850T Project

[nick949]

Hi Shaun,

I missed this thread (in the UK when it started) and just noticed it for the first time.  You're a glutton for punishment, aren't you.  If you make this one anywhere near as pretty as your Eldo, it will be a lovely bike.  It's odd - I used to dislike the look of the 850-T series tanks - now I think they are elegant. It just goes to show that one's opinions need not be written in stone.

Good luck with this one

Nick

[Pancake]

Hi Shaun,

I   It's odd - I used to dislike the look of the 850-T series tanks - now I think they are elegant. It just goes to show that one's opinions need not be written in stone.

I agree and I also love the way it has been painted. That orange and white does everythign right. There are so many ways to be wrong with one of these tanks and the options that they enable but this one has it nailed.

[smdl]

Zee10 -- thanks for the great images!  This will be very helpful for me as I start to put things back together. 

Shaun

[smdl]

Hi Shaun,

I missed this thread (in the UK when it started) and just noticed it for the first time.  You're a glutton for punishment, aren't you.  If you make this one anywhere near as pretty as your Eldo, it will be a lovely bike.  It's odd - I used to dislike the look of the 850-T series tanks - now I think they are elegant. It just goes to show that one's opinions need not be written in stone.

Good luck with this one

Nick

Hi, Nick.  Good to hear from you!  Yes, a bit of a glutton for punishment, but I suspect that you also know a thing or two about that...

Agreed on the 850-T tank -- I have actually purchased a 750S3/Le Mans tank for this project, but the T unit continues to grow on me.  It could well end up on another project, at some point.  Thanks for the kind words about the Eldo -- wish it sounded as nice as yours! 

Hope you had a great trip in the UK.  Looking forward to catching up at Lavinge -- Carl is playing at the tavern on Thursday, so I will really be looking forward to that.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

I agree and I also love the way it has been painted. That orange and white does everythign right. There are so many ways to be wrong with one of these tanks and the options that they enable but this one has it nailed.

Yes, the orange and white is quite striking.  Phil Tunbridge, MGNOC Ontario Rep, get's full credit for that!  He had the paint done many years ago when he owned the bike.

Shaun

[smdl]

Well, I can't believe that over two years have passed since I started this project, but between an intense multi-year project at work, and several interim projects in the garage, it's taken me a while to get back on track.  The Norge project has been sold to Phil (he just finished and licensed it yesterday!), the Stelvio has been farkled to my satisfaction, the V11 has received a bit of attention, and the Eldo has a new windshield.  So, while the others will need a few tweaks, here and there, the lift table is clear for the first time in over a year!  So, this project -- 850-T transformation into a 750S tribute -- will take prominence again!  My build will never be up to the quality of one of Jim's or Charlie's or Joe's, etc., but I will make an attempt at documenting things as they come together. 

Having extracted a broken bolt in the bellhousing last night (the one holding the breather pipe), I'm now at the point of reassembling the engine.  The crank pin has been ground third-undersize and has been polished.  New 88mm Gilardonis have been sourced.  Rotating assembly has been balanced (BIG difference front to rear!), including the lightened flywheel and ring gear (which was way out of balance).  Heads were rebuilt by Charlie, after machining and mild porting by his machinist.  Cam was reground to B10 spec by Colt Cams, and I have a new set of PHF36 carbs (courtesy of Turin) that will go on a set of custom manifolds from George Dockray.  Exhaust is a full SS Mistral system. 

Here's where I am hoping for some input from those more experienced than I.  My goal is not to make this a fragile, unreliable garage-queen, but just to wake up the performance to make the bike a little more fun.  We're dealing with 1970's technology here, so I don't see any point in trying to extract every last ounce of performance out of the engine.  If I want to go faster, I can easily jump on the Stelvio and go way faster, all while carrying my camping gear, if I choose.   :)  Considering these thoughts, does it make sense to dig deeper to confirm/alter compression ratio, and, given that the cam profile has changed slightly, should I be concerned about carefully checking valve to piston clearance?  I want to do what makes sense, and is logical, without going overboard.

What say you?  Do you guys look to optimize compression etc?  If so, how do you go about it?   I have gone through a few motors over the years, but primarily focused on reliability rather than performance.

Thanks,
Shaun

[nick949]

Here's a bit of encouragement for you Shaun.  She's not as pretty as something Jim might have put together, but she ain't no garage queen.  Clocked about 250 kms this morning - running like a dream with an R100S and a KTM 990.  These 70's bikes can still hold their own!

Nick

[smdl]

Very encouraging, Nick, and not a coffee shop in sight!   **C

Thanks very much for hanging with me on this one.  I'm going to enjoy working through getting her roadworthy.  Maybe I'll even manage to finish in time for the Ontario rally, this year!

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

Okay, gotta start somewhere.  Well, the garage was a real disaster after jamming so much in there over winter.  So, I spent some time on it, and while still disastrous, I now at least have some space to work:




I'm very fortunate to have as much space as I do, but hope to get it insulated and heated, one day.  Still a lot of cleanup needed, and about 3 more trips to the dump!  All the boxes on the floor contain the various (mostly new/reconditioned) parts for this project, and I am just going through and sorting them out.  I remember this stage of the Eldo build, and it's fun going through all the sub-assemblies that are already done, and anticipating getting it all back together.

Having stripped the engine completely (seemingly ages ago), I needed to deal with the bolt that snapped off in the bellhousing.  I'm trying to remind myself to take pictures, but have never been all that good at doing so.  I did take one of the removal process, where I was using left-handed drill bit to hopefully coax the bolt out.  



Unfortunately, that didn't work, so I ended up using a small bolt extractor to remove it, which worked well.  I really don't like using them, but slotting and drilling didn't work, so that seemed the next best step.  Will definitely use anti-seize going forward.

Finally, here's a shot of the frame with fresh powder-coating.  For those in the area, I can't recommend Len at Edge Coatings enough.  He is more careful with my projects than I am!



Edit:  I should mention that I really wanted to go with the proper narrow front end for this bike.  Jim (canuck750) has been extremely helpful in locating the parts needed for this, and even supplied the lower triple tree.  Thanks, Jim!!  The upper was sourced from Harper's, and the narrow hub assemblies from HMB in Germany.  A few other pieces, such as the steering damper and lock, came from Teo Lammers.   I'll show some more of this when I get to the point of assembling the front end. 

That's all for now.  Will try to remember to take pictures as I go along.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Triple Jim]

I'm very fortunate to have as much space as I do, but hope to get it insulated and heated, one day.

With a slab on grade, just insulating it well will do a lot to keep it warm in winter and cool in summer, even if you don't heat or cool it right away.  It'll also go a long way in preventing rust.

[canuck750]

It's going to be a fantastic machine, keep us informed of your progress and please post pictures ;-T

Cheers

Jim

[smdl]

With a slab on grade, just insulating it well will do a lot to keep it warm in winter and cool in summer, even if you don't heat or cool it right away.  It'll also go a long way in preventing rust.

Thanks, (Triple) Jim.

Yes, I have been thinking of proceeding with the insulation, but there are some needs first.  I need to wire for power throughout, but I need a better feed for the garage first.  The main power feed is on the far side of the fully-finished house, and I only have a single 15 amp circuit that was run into the garage.  So, I need to put a new panel for the house, run a line all the way to a new sub-panel in the garage, wire the garage, then insulate.  I'll get there (if I ever stop obsessing with motorcycles  :D), but it will take some time.  Doors are already insulated, though, which does help a lot with the heat in summer!

Cheers,
Shaun  

[smdl]

It's going to be a fantastic machine, keep us informed of your progress and please post pictures ;-T

Cheers

Jim

Will do, Jim.

Thanks again for all your help (and great example)!

Shaun

[Triple Jim]

Thanks, (Triple) Jim.

Yes, I have been thinking of proceeding with the insulation, but there are some needs first.  I need to wire for power throughout, but I need a better feed for the garage first.  The main power feed is on the far side of the fully-finished house, and I only have a single 15 amp circuit that was run into the garage.  So, I need to put a new panel for the house, run a line all the way to a new sub-panel in the garage, wire the garage, then insulate.  I'll get there (if I ever stop obsessing with motorcycles  :D), but it will take some time.  Doors are already insulated, though, which does help a lot with the heat in summer!

Cheers,
Shaun  

Code permitting, you should be able to insulate before adding wiring if you want to.  In a garage I normally use EMT for anything exposed, and staple to the wood at the ceiling.  I don't know about the code where you are though.  For a garage back in MD I would have had to have all the insulation and wiring covered with drywall, and the seams taped, so I'd be forced to do the wiring and insulation at the same time.   Here I used plain batts, and covered them with fire retardant foil, so I can add wiring any time.

[smdl]

Good info, thanks.  I'll do some checking to see what we can do here.  A friend of a friend is an electrician, and he said he would be willing to come by to have a look.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Triple Jim]

It's great that you have a connection to an electrician.  I was amazed at how much better iron/steel things like my lathe and mill held up once I insulated my place.  I've had guys stop by in the early summer when I didn't have the air conditioning running, and think it was, and a similar thing in the late fall when it felt like I was heating when I wasn't.

[smdl]

Hi, folks.

With my Stelvio and Eldo issues, this summer, I haven't made as much progress on the T as I would have liked to.  However, I'm currently waiting on parts for the Stelvio, so thought I would get a bit more done on this project.

Pistons and cylinders in:



Heads going on:



Went to put the rocker stands and rockers on, and found substantial wear on one of them:



Mark Etheridge indicated that I could sand these, but given that this one was so much worse than the others, I decided to replace this one.  Mark has one on the way to me now.

Will keep posting as I make progress, but I will be back on the Stelvio for a few weeks.  I am also going to pick up a '74 civilian Eldo project soon, and will have to find some room to store that until this project is done. 

More to come as it happens.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Hahnda]

Looks like we are on similar paths.

Were you able to source all the parts for the narrow front end? I didn't realize how many problems the wide front end was going to cause on mine. How about the fork ears and a rear fender?

[guzzista]

When I did my bike, I got the front wheel bearing flanges cut down 7.5 mm thinner on each side.( This was done to bring in the fork tubes from 195mm to 185mm center to center) These days those items may be available from HMB Guzzi in Germany or Guzziladen may also have them. Don't forget to check with Curtis Harper first , though. As per the headlight ears or rear V7 Sport fender , no one has any at his time ( unless Curtis Harper has some NOS items stashed away). 850LM1 triple clamps should work fine and look the part ( just got mine powder coated and couldn't tell they are different from the V7 Sport save the threaded nub  on the lower triple clamp for the lower fairing mount on the LM, which can be used to mount the brake splitter on the T.

[smdl]

Looks like we are on similar paths.

Were you able to source all the parts for the narrow front end? I didn't realize how many problems the wide front end was going to cause on mine. How about the fork ears and a rear fender?

Hi, Kevin.

Yes, I was able to get everything I needed for the front end, but it did take some doing.  Jim Carey (Canuck750) has been immensely helpful in providing both the bottom yoke and the headlight ears.  For the latter, he had an original pair that had cracked and had been repaired.  Not perfect on the inside, but that's not visible, so I'm not concerned.  He also machined my FAC dampers to work properly with the instrument mounts.  Pretty good guy, all around!   

The upper yoke came from Harper's (thanks, Curtis), and the carriers and axle came from HMB.  They actually have a full kit now, which makes things easier:

http://www.hmb-guzzi.de/shop/Chassis-and-Frame/Wheels-Rims/Wheel-Parts/Front-wheel-flange-set-narrow--750-S3-etc-.html

I'm really excited to get this project finished!

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

When I did my bike, I got the front wheel bearing flanges cut down 7.5 mm thinner on each side.( This was done to bring in the fork tubes from 195mm to 185mm center to center) These days those items may be available from HMB Guzzi in Germany or Guzziladen may also have them. Don't forget to check with Curtis Harper first , though. As per the headlight ears or rear V7 Sport fender , no one has any at his time ( unless Curtis Harper has some NOS items stashed away). 850LM1 triple clamps should work fine and look the part ( just got mine powder coated and couldn't tell they are different from the V7 Sport save the threaded nub  on the lower triple clamp for the lower fairing mount on the LM, which can be used to mount the brake splitter on the T.

Great info!

[smdl]

Hi, folks.

Okay, with the Stelvio clutch, the Eldo u-joint and the V11 Le Mans headlight bushings behind me (what a year!), I am finally able to get back to my 750S tribute project. 

Engine finally reassembled.



Ready to be mated to the gearbox.



Major milestone (millstone?) achieved, and it was a great experience to begin depleting some of my parts caches, knowing that they will actually be staying permanently on the bike, this time.  Hopefully, the warm weather will hold on, and I will be able to carry on with the assembly over the next week or two.  Wish me luck!!

Edit:   Fixed pictures.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Engine finally reassembled.

Wow! Carbs out the front, exhaust out the back? 

[smdl]

Yes, thanks, Charlie.  I had a good chuckle at my own expense earlier.  I have fixed that already, but used the wrong set of pictures.  Too tired, I think (probably from having to do all that again).  Sometimes you have to laugh, or you will cry.

Shaun

[jvb]

Wow! Carbs out the front, exhaust out the back?

Cool 

Now for the finicky pedants.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Yes, thanks, Charlie.  I had a good chuckle at my own expense earlier.  I have fixed that already, but used the wrong set of pictures.  Too tired, I think (probably from having to do all that again).  Sometimes you have to laugh, or you will cry.

Shaun

Well, at least you didn't send two of the same side head off to the machine shop like I did! Engine(s) came to me in parts, customer said use the best parts with engine number 5xxxx. Grabbed the best heads, but didn't notice they weren't a left and right... 

[smdl]

Well, at least you didn't send two of the same side head off to the machine shop like I did! Engine(s) came to me in parts, customer said use the best parts with engine number 5xxxx. Grabbed the best heads, but didn't notice they weren't a left and right... 

No, but I'm sure I could easily have done so, given the chance!   

Shaun

[smdl]

Hi, folks.

Small update today.  I was finally able to successfully adjust the clutch push rod length, and get the engine mounted to the gearbox.  That meant I was able to begin bolting pieces to it again!



I know it doesn't look like much, but it is incredibly satisfying to begin putting the bike back together. 

It will be dropping to -20C, this weekend, so it will probably be at least a couple of weeks before I can do too much more, but it's only a matter of time, now.

Cheers,
Shaun

[canuck750]

The drive train looks great Shaun, getting the engine and transmission reacquainted is a big milestone! The hard work is now behind you.

Keep us up top date with your pictures

Cheers

Jim

[smdl]

The drive train looks great Shaun, getting the engine and transmission reacquainted is a big milestone! The hard work is now behind you.

Keep us up top date with your pictures

Cheers

Jim

Thanks, Jim.  Not anywhere near the standard of your work, but I am building this bike as a nice rider, and it doesn't need to be perfect.  I'm really looking forward to getting this one done, so I can get started on the next one.  That was going to be my '74 civilian Eldo, but I recently picked up a 1968 Triumph TR250 (car), and I think I'll have a go at that first.  All great fun!

As always, I'm following your projects with great interest!

Shaun