Project Live Wire - Electric Harley Davidson merged threadfest

[s1120]

For road-going automobiles and trucks, I believe "hybrid" is the way of the (near) future.  It's the only variant of electric vehicle which has been broadly produced by a number of automakers, and they are versatile enough to integrate into the existing infrastructure, if a person needs to go farther than the battery will take them.

I think thats the thing right there.. At this point it really solves a lot of the issue of pure electric.. I think that in the past they have been missing the boat a bit..  IMHO the gas engines have been far too big, and with the advantage of the electric motors power output, using a much smaller engine as a charging unit is the key..  having a small engine to supply the charge when needed, and in auto use provide some extra heat for winter driving would be the best of both worlds. With the tech out there today, and the systems to be able to seamlessly start, stop, and control a small engine, the skys the limit.. 

[rocker59]

^^^ All true brother Mike , except traffic laws and cultural norms had to change dramatically to allow for the introduction of the automobile . Then we needed to build more paved roads , service stations , repair shops , parts houses , all of the changes to infrastructure that allowed for the automobile to flourish .

 Dusty

Electric was a player in automobiles and trucks from 1891 to 1920.  Then it wasn't.  It could not keep up with the "cheaper, faster, farther, more" of the internal combustion engine.  Engineers and Scientists have been dreaming of and building electric-powered conveyances since the 1820s or 1830s.  First: Steam Power kicked electric's arse, then: gasoline and diesel kicked electric's arse.

- Livery stables changed to gas stations because of consumer demand: People were transitioning to autos and needed service. 

- Roads were improved for national security, improving farm to market access, and consumer demand:  Our military (Transcontinental Motor Convoy) realized in 1919 how lacking our road system was.  Farmers were buying trucks and tractors and needed better access to rail heads.  More people were buying automobiles and wanted better roadways (Good Roads Movement).

One big deficiency in the early 20th century was our electric grid.  You could pump gas or diesel by hand without electricity.  So, a motorist could refuel way back in the rough and uncut, with nary a thought or care of whether the filling station had electric.

Now, today, our electric grid coverage is extensive.  Adding "pay to charge" recharge equipment at gas stations and truck stops is doable.  The technology is there.

What isn't there is battery capacity. After over 100 years, batteries still can't provide the range or the quick recharge capability that any old automobile can.

When (if) batteries can provide 300-400 miles range AND quick recharge times similar to pumping 12 or 15 gallons of petrol into a car, THEN we will see the infrastructure for their recharging added to existing gas stations and truck stops..

[Kristian]

I rode the thing. I talked to the engineers for 4 hours. I talked to the marketing people, and the design people.

This is not a checkbox. This is a very serious entry into an untapped market.

FWIW, in the after-ride opinion survey, asked 'what would you pay for this' I said ~$18k. I think the price reflects the balance between initial production numbers, red ink, and demographics.

I said I'd have the first one that day, and I still mean to. It's that cool, and I haven't bought but 2 new motorcycles in my entire life, both for racing.
Given that I rarely ride more than 100 miles a day, distance isn't an issue. What it feels like on those short trips is everything- otherwise, I'll take the car, right? No gas, no starter, no clutch or shifter.

This bike, given the ability to remove the controls, is the absolute in Hooliganism.

From the only one in the entire thread who knows what he's talking about.

Much of the criticism from the peanut gallery, as noted elsewhere, is coming from a position of not being able to afford one, an improper metric of judgment, and the same for those who criticize Teslas. If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement the Model S is, and that it is a *very* good car indeed. And I'm not a fan; just a serious carguy who can separate what *I* like and can afford from what is good and true. And Teslas are that; and the Livewire looks like a terrific piece of engineering, well beyond what Zero does.

[bad Chad]

No TWA, I don't have an electric bike, and I am not in the market for one.   I don't doubt that the HD has better fit and finish.   But both will go very fast, very quickly, one just goes a lot farther, for a lot less money.  If I were going to look seriously at buying an electric, I wouldn't even consider the HD for stated reasons.   It goes without saying, but I'm saying it anyway, that's just me, you and others may very well see it differently.

[bad Chad]

Wow Kristian, that was really bad form.

[Lannis]

Much of the criticism from the peanut gallery, as noted elsewhere, is coming from a position of not being able to afford one, an improper metric of judgment, and the same for those who criticize Teslas. If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement the Model S is, and that it is a *very* good car indeed. And I'm not a fan; just a serious carguy who can separate what *I* like and can afford from what is good and true. And Teslas are that; and the Livewire looks like a terrific piece of engineering, well beyond what Zero does.

We were discussing "Hot Rods" on another bike list once.   There was a guy was was hugely into Hot Rods, really liked them, always boosting them.   The thread got to discussing whether a Hot Rod (the generic kind - '32 Ford body, 350 crate engine, Nova subframe, chopped, frenched, etc) was "worth" $90,000 or so.  I and others said "No way is there anything about that vehicle that would have me pay even $9,000 for it, much less $90,000."

He frothed up and said exactly what you're saying here ("of not being able to afford one, an improper metric of judgment, and the same for those who criticize Teslas. If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement").   

Accused us of being jealous because we were too poor to afford one, of not having the judgment to understand what was "good" and what was not, and of not understanding the level of craftsmanship that went into one of them. 

Proper Philistines, we were.   It didn't sound very good then, and it doesn't sound very good now ....

Lannis

[oldbike54]

 Once again , change is a constant . What we consider mundane today was radical at one time . E cars may never take over , notice I never said they would , but they will fill a niche . As for battery tech not improving rapidly enough , cordless tools are an example of just how far we have come on that front . heck fellas , how long has it been since we moved from old style lead acid wet cell batteries to where we are now ? The change is already happening , but like all change it happens at a pace that can be hard to observe W/O looking at the arc of history . We have gone from the horse and buggy to the IC engine in a pretty short period of time . What I am saying is that it is very easy to get "stuck" in an era , while the world moves right along changing all the while . Change makes a lot of folks uncomfortable , and that is OK , but it isn't 1950 anymore .

 Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

Politics are not allowed here...but...there's no doubt they will play a big role  in the acceptance of  electric vehicles..

[rocker59]

If you know anything about cars, you'd have understood years ago what an amazing achievement the Model S is, and that it is a *very* good car indeed. 

A great car, it may be, but it ain't no model T. 

Electric will have an impact when their price, performance, range, and refueling time matches the performance of the internal combustion cars they're trying to replace.

In the USA, that means a $36,000 new car with a range of about 300 miles which can be refueled in about five minutes anywhere in the USA for about $25 for another 300 miles of use.

There remains work to be done.

[twowheeladdict]

I'm not sure that I'm going to invest in EV stocks based on "implying", "could be", "anyway", and "potentially" based on a huffpost article!   

But anyway ....

Lannis

who said anything about investing in EV stocks?  What a leap!  You have some skill there Lannis in the art of deflection and reading into something that is not there.

[Lannis]

who said anything about investing in EV stocks?  What a leap!  You have some skill there Lannis in the art of deflection and reading into something that is not there.

I didn't literally mean "EV stock shares"; I don't even know what they would be.    I was using it as a metaphor for "Do you REALLY believe in it?", or a nice way of saying "Put your money where your mouth is", i.e. make a commitment to something that you are advocating.

I was just saying that I wouldn't be doing that.   

Lannis

[twowheeladdict]

Based on many of the comments in this thread I find it truly amazing that companies like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infinity, Acura, Cadillac, etc. even exist.  Why buy any of those when you can buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevy, etc. 

Why would anyone in their right mind pay $30,000 or more for a vehicle when you can have a vehicle for $15,000.

That is the gist of the naysayers of the Livewire. 

[rocker59]

Based on many of the comments in this thread I find it truly amazing that companies like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infinity, Acura, Cadillac, etc. even exist.  Why buy any of those when you can buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevy, etc. 

Why would anyone in their right mind pay $30,000 or more for a vehicle when you can have a vehicle for $15,000.

That is the gist of the naysayers of the Livewire.

Average new car purchase price in The USA is stated as $36,000.  That car will go 300-400 miles on 12-16 gallons of gasoline, and will take about five minutes to refuel for $25-$35.  That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA auto marketplace.

Average new motorcycle price in The USA is probably $12,000-$14,000 (couldn't find the current exact number).  That bike will go 150-200 miles on 4-5 gallons of gasoline and refuel in minutes for $8-$12.  That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA motorcycle marketplace.

Otherwise, they're just interesting oddities.  Like the odd Bentley or Ferrari one sees on his daily commute...


Another way to look at it is: 

I have $30,000 budget and I'm buying a motorcycle.  What can I buy for $30,000 ??  Well, you can buy just about anything you want, as $30,000 is near top of the range for production motorcycles in The USA.  With $30,000 to spend, a person can buy fantastic Harleys, Indians, BMWs, Ducatis, MV Agustas, etc. that perform better in every way than this new electric conveyance from H-D.

Or, I've have $75,000 to spend on a new car.  Tesla has its Model S, but what else can I buy with that money?  Well, the water is real damned deep at that price point.  The list is long.  The Tesla is just an interesting oddity in that segment... 

[Lannis]

Based on many of the comments in this thread I find it truly amazing that companies like Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infinity, Acura, Cadillac, etc. even exist.  Why buy any of those when you can buy Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevy, etc. 

Why would anyone in their right mind pay $30,000 or more for a vehicle when you can have a vehicle for $15,000.

That is the gist of the naysayers of the Livewire.

I think there's a lot of truth to that.   Most of the naysayers (that's sort of a pejorative, slanted term, but let it go) are ONLY saying:

1) I would not buy one.

2) I think it's a mistake for HD to be producing it.

3) I don't think they will sell well.

There's nothing wrong with anyone saying any of that, plus they are absolutely right about point (1) and MAY be right about point (2) if they have judged correctly, and they might be.

Nobody is saying that HD should be forced to not produce an electric motorcycle; besides, that would be silly.   If someone wants to buy an electric HD at a massive price for the same reason they would buy a Range Rover or Tesla, then let 'em.   (No one argues with that).   I don't think they'll become popular, and I think HD will lose their shirt on them.  (Lots of people are arguing against THAT!  Vive la difference!)

Lannis

[twowheeladdict]

Average new car purchase price in The USA is stated as $36,000.  That car will go 300-400 miles on 12-16 gallons of gasoline, and will take about five minutes to refuel for $25-$35.  That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA auto marketplace.

Average new motorcycle price in The USA is probably $12,000-$14,000 (couldn't find the current exact number).  That bike will go 150-200 miles on 4-5 gallons of gasoline and refuel in minutes for $8-$12.  That is what electric needs to be, to be competitive and make a dent in the USA motorcycle marketplace.

Otherwise, they're just interesting oddities.  Like the odd Bentley or Ferrari one sees on his daily commute...


Another way to look at it is: 

I have $30,000 budget and I'm buying a motorcycle.  What can I buy for $30,000 ??  Well, you can buy just about anything you want, as $30,000 is near top of the range for production motorcycles in The USA.  With $30,000 to spend, a person can buy fantastic Harleys, Indians, BMWs, Ducatis, MV Agustas, etc. that perform better in every way than this new electric conveyance from H-D.

Or, I've have $75,000 to spend on a new car.  Tesla has its Model S, but what else can I buy with that money?  Well, the water is real damned deep at that price point.  The list is long.  The Tesla is just an interesting oddity in that segment...

This is where my economic side creates the dilemma for me.  At $30,000 I could buy a nicely equipped Miata, or a nice used Roadster from other manufacturers that would cost me less to own and operate than a $30,000 motorcycle.

At $75,000 I could buy a cabin out in the woods or a pretty decent RV.

The point being is that many people who spend $30,000 on motorcycles and $75,000 on cars already own $500,000 homes, have investment portfolios, etc.  Of course there are those who are enthusiasts and the car and bike become much higher priorities than the nice house or investment portfolio, but hopefully that is a small percentage.

[stormshearon]

I too have ridden the prototype Livewire bike a few years back when HD was touring the US demoing the bike. Even as a prototype, it was very well finished and rode pretty much like an internal combustion engine bike. It even had mirrors that were completely useless except for looking at your elbows. I ran it in eco mode, and the acceleration was really amazing, as was the breaking. You did have to pay attention as we were in a group and if the person in front of you chopped the throttle the bike slowed down abruptly. I think Zero added a feature to flash the brake light on there bikes when a rider does that and does not use the brakes to warn the drivers behind.

I liked it. I also spent time with the marketing folks who were there to talk about the bike. The only real downside was range, how fast it could recharge and price.

At the price HD is quoting, it is for a fairly small market segment - rather like the Tesla Model S, which really runs around 100,000 plus as no one I know who bought them bought a base model - always the big battery, fully loaded model. They will most likely sell some.

Electric is interesting, but unless the mileage and recharge capability match current ICE cars I don't think they will take off - unless forced by government decree. I don't have the link, but I did read a decent write up of what a fast charge station - 6 pump equivilant - would need in electric power 24/7. It turns out it would need a dedicated sub-station (sized for the station) for each one to handle the potential load. And that would require a lot of infrastructure improvements that would cost a lot of money.

I am not saying impossilbe - but I think it will take longer than the true believers want it too.

[jas67]

On hybrids-for years I thought I was clever thinking they couldn't be sensible since the non plug-in types still got their energy from the gasoline on board. Only much later did I realize it was all about pumping losses. So rather than compare 2 cars of similar displacement one should look at performance, as the hybrid can give better acceleration with lower displacement, and thus lower pumping loss. Same concept as turbocharging with a different technology.

It's more than just pumping losses, its also the fact that it uses regenerative braking to reclaim kinetic energy otherwise lost as heat in the brakes in stop and go traffic.   Also, cars like the Prius, even if they had a conventional drive train would still be pretty efficient due to the aerodynamics, and low rolling resistance tires.     

[jas67]

Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them?  On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes.  On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike."  Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV.  The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical.  Where I see EV taking off is delivery service.  The route is fixed.  Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day.  Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!

We have charging stations where I work, so, I could top it off while I'm working.
I'll bet plenty of other employers to too.

As for the commercial delivery vehicles, I can see them having removable battery packs like some forklifts do.     Run a route, empty the truck, come back, swap the battery pack while loading the cargo in the truck, repeat.

[jas67]

I didn't read very post.....As a past electrical contractor it's apparent to me the current (lol) state of the electrical grid may have trouble dealing with high average quick chargers in the summer when AC loads alone tax the system...Tesla for example takes near 30 amps of 240 volts...Add that to the 30 amps of typical whole house AC load....And electrical distribution system improvements are costly and slo to happen...

Those with an EV that has plenty of range for the round trip to work will likely just charge at night.  At least in the summer time, load on the grid at night is lower during the day.

But, as more and more homes go all electric (heat pump for heat), I can see a situation where this is inverted in the winter time, and peak demand for power is at night.

Widespread adoption of EV's will present a problem for the electric grid.   Hopefully, the utilities are upgrading now.

[Rough Edge racing]

Those with an EV that has plenty of range for the round trip to work will likely just charge at night.  At least in the summer time, load on the grid at night is lower during the day.

But, as more and more homes go all electric (heat pump for heat), I can see a situation where this is inverted in the winter time, and peak demand for power is at night.

Widespread adoption of EV's will present a problem for the electric grid.   Hopefully, the utilities are upgrading now.

 There might be reasonable upgrades in the next 30 years...or not...High power transmission lines take up a lot space and are brutal expensive... And what's going to be used to generate more power ?  The windmills that blow up? More nuclear? Perhaps an actual attempt to use our garbage as fuel?
   Perhaps if consumers want electric cars then there will be a reason$$$ to solve potential problems...

[Aaron D.]

It's more than just pumping losses, its also the fact that it uses regenerative braking to reclaim kinetic energy otherwise lost as heat in the brakes in stop and go traffic.   Also, cars like the Prius, even if they had a conventional drive train would still be pretty efficient due to the aerodynamics, and low rolling resistance tires.   

Frankly the regenerative braking is pretty minor for what's on the street.

[Motormike]

As I said on ADV, people have the right to spend their own money however they please ( without my tax money used as a subsidy, thank you!) They can buy an expensive EV or a car that burns vegetable oil, for all I care.   Not being willing to part with one's hard earned dollars to purchase something and not being able to afford it are two very different things. 

[bad Chad]

RER how many wind turbines have “blown up” in the past few years?

[jas67]

There might be reasonable upgrades in the next 30 years...or not...High power transmission lines take up a lot space and are brutal expensive... And what's going to be used to generate more power ?  The windmills that blow up? More nuclear? Perhaps an actual attempt to use our garbage as fuel?
   Perhaps if consumers want electric cars then there will be a reason$$$ to solve potential problems...

There is a lot of solar capacity being installed across the company.   To do with that, and wind for that matter, we're going to need energy storage.
Tesla, and likely other companies, and working on utility class energy storage projects.

But, the bulk of it will likely come from natural gas in the near term.

[Sheepdog]

I like the idea of electric bikes (heck, I'm a long-time "Akira" fan). We have a coupe of electric golf carts adapted to farm needs. They are our most frequently used tools! We're using a great deal of Stihl's 36 volt lawn care equipment, too. Folks are anxious for a little instant gratification, but this sort of technology development is a slow process; at least in modern circles. We'll have electric conveyances soon. Geez, we might have wireless power transmission by then...

[Rough Edge racing]

RER how many wind turbines have “blown up” in the past few years?

  About 4000, a very small percentage of the total...But it's becoming clear ,wind turbines require more scheduled maintenance than anticipated..You can google the question and get pages of info...
  Until AC power can be stored economically, wind power on a large scale is just not the answer...I for one, think they are ugly...
 
  The internal combustion engine future is not stagnant..There are promising new functional designs featuring more power with less fuel consumption in smaller packages. It could be more likely that these new tech IC engines will be mass produced before enough changes happen to electric vehicles to make them the majority  power plant...

[Perazzimx14]

RER how many wind turbines have “blown up” in the past few years?

At least one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlq0B_ucsYo

[twowheeladdict]

I like the idea of electric bikes (heck, I'm a long-time "Akira" fan). We have a coupe of electric golf carts adapted to farm needs. They are our most frequently used tools! We're using a great deal of Stihl's 36 volt lawn care equipment, too. Folks are anxious for a little instant gratification, but this sort of technology development is a slow process; at least in modern circles. We'll have electric conveyances soon. Geez, we might have wireless power transmission by then...

This is where cordless electric shines IMO.  Less maintenance.   Less noise.  Of course we had cordless electric grass trimmers in the 1970s.  I remember my dad handing my brothers and me hand powered lawn scissors to trim 100s of feet of grass along our terraced property.  Of course we also collected and carried all the fieldstone that built the walls to create the terraces.  Then in the late 70s he got the hand held electric trimmer.  When the boys moved out he bought himself a lawn tractor to replace us and the manual mowers.  LOL!

[jas67]

At least one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlq0B_ucsYo

Probably a failure of the safety controls that are designed to change the pitch of the blades to keep the speed controlled.
It looks like it spun to fast, resulting in blade failure from excessive centripetal force.

[Kristian]

Wow Kristian, that was really bad form.

Why exactly?

The sentiment is common as muck--and has been expressed here before, in this thread and the one about Eagan's new $50K bike. I also have some of it--I wonder who on earth would buy silly $300K unreliable Ferraris, $3 mill. Bugattis, or think folks who pay $100K for Laverda SFC750s or '74 Ducati 750SSs are nuts and that the prices are silly for such slow, old, cranky, bikes. Well, that comes in part from not being able to afford one. My MC purse does not stretch to $30K bikes either, and I do not find the HD good value, but, I understand the pricing structure and that $30K is an easy drop in the bucket for many. Or $300K. Most of us criticize things we cannot afford and deride them as silly etc. But, it's nice to be aware of what we're doing.