Project Live Wire - Electric Harley Davidson merged threadfest

[Motormike]

Everyone complains about the range.  I contend the range isn't the problem, it's the "fill up" time back to !00%.  8 hours?  10?  Buy some super-voltage charger and maybe cut it down to 6 hours? Is it winter, is it summer, got to factor in temperature, you know..  Outside the commute to and from work they just don't sound very practical (I know, most people don't think ANY motorcycle is practical).  Man, I went on the ADV Live Wire post and made a few disparaging remarks about the Tesla being an "over-priced golf cart for the well-heeled."  Man, those Kool-aid drinkers got pissed!  Worse than BMW riders! Ha! I guess no one wants to be told their 100K car is a pricy golf cart.  Even if they do use them just like one.  I was surprised to learn the Tesla range is approacing 300 miles...under "optimal conditions" (like not in the mountains and not in the winter time!) That's pretty good, as long as you don't really need to go anywhere. But that still doesn't solve the long down time to recharge.  Elec. vehicles aren't practical outside the city, and thank God I don't live in the city anymore.  I like the look of the Live Wire, but like some here, think its just an expensive novelty.  Well, I guess I'd better go out and plug in the EZ-Go....

[elvisboy77]

Another electric vehicle fail.  Yawn.  They should provide a portable bed and TV for you when you buy this bike, so you have something to do while it recharges LOL!

[Aaron D.]

Most of the auto drivers I know could live with a sub-100 mile range, especially since the "tank" is full every morning.
When I went for a ride with a guy on has Harley-a lifestyle type rider-after 200 miles he was AMAZED at how far he went-100 miles was higher than he's ever gone let alone the 200 we rode.

Still, I don't see it being real popular.

[GuzziChris]

Not really on topic for the Harley, but on topic for EVs, I have a 90 mile daily round trip commute and the wife needed a new car, so she got my Subie and I bought myself a plug in hybrid Prius (and received > $9,000 in Toyota, state and federal tax rebates). Only 20-25 mile range on battery, but once that is out I get about 56 mpg on the gas side. So when I plug in both ways, I'm doing my 90 miles on about a half a gallon of gas. With an 11 gallon tank, it's got a range of over 500 miles without plugging in. Car is as ugly as an old man's ars, relatively comfy, smooth and bland as a coffee creamer, but I'm now spending next to nothing on gas and I don't have to worry about electric range. Win, big win, at least for my wallet if not my masculinity. 

[Aaron D.]

1 more thought on range-on the Indian Scout forum a vendor is offering extended range tanks, and asked if he should make them all with room for an aftermarket intake vs the stock. The difference is substantial, with stock intake the tank goes to 4.5 gallons, with room for the others it only gets to the high 3s.

Most comments are interested in the "fancy intake" version. Never mind the benefits.

On hybrids-for years I thought I was clever thinking they couldn't be sensible since the non plug-in types still got their energy from the gasoline on board. Only much later did I realize it was all about pumping losses. So rather than compare 2 cars of similar displacement one should look at performance, as the hybrid can give better acceleration with lower displacement, and thus lower pumping loss. Same concept as turbocharging with a different technology.

[rocker59]

  Man, I went on the ADV Live Wire post and made a few disparaging remarks about the Tesla being an "over-priced golf cart for the well-heeled."  Man, those Kool-aid drinkers got pissed!  Worse than BMW riders! Ha! I guess no one wants to be told their 100K car is a pricy golf cart.  Even if they do use them just like one. 

It's a religion.  People get pissed when you question their religion...

[steven c]

 I think once they get the recharging time down to something reasonable time cars will catch on because 99% of the driving public do not care what is under the hood anymore, as long as they get in and can go that is all that really matters. Watch the new car ads its all about connecting.Not sure what you are connecting to but it seems important.And they never mention the motor. And most motorcyclist are just around town, short rides,and I hate to say now a days that is pretty much what I do.

[Motormike]

Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them?  On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes.  On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike."  Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV.  The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical.  Where I see EV taking off is delivery service.  The route is fixed.  Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day.  Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!

[twowheeladdict]

Let's talk about this again on 2/25/19.  Zero Motorcycles will release an entirely new platform, that I suspect will crush the HD on any front that matters, even though they already have!

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com

Do you own a Zero Chad?  Are you preparing to buy one? 

I have seen a few videos now attempting to compare the Zero and the Harley based on components and fit and finish.

The Zero is described as having the components of a $7000 sporty bike.  The FZ07 comes to mind.  If it weren't for the engine the FZ07 would get just passing reviews. 

The fit and finish on Harleys and the components advertised to be on this Livewire are much superior to the Zero.  Time will tell if either company survives.  The only Zero sellers near me are in the metropolitan areas where electric bikes and cars make sense. 

There are a vast number of folks who might put 5000 miles total a year on all their forms of transportation combined.

[Lannis]

Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them?  On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes.  On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike."  Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV.  The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical.  Where I see EV taking off is delivery service.  The route is fixed.  Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day.  Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!

I like the electric vehicle concept, but what you lay out here (minus the nice young lady) is exactly the practical reason why I never bought one when I was commuting.   I'd never be able to run an errand in the afternoon or during lunch that I hadn't thought of doing during the day, because there was never enough margin past the basic commute.

Now if I had been riding a bus every day, was satisfied with that degree of freedom, and used an EV to emulate and replace the bus ride, that would make sense.   And for some people, it sounds like it will ...

Lannis

[twowheeladdict]

I think once they get the recharging time down to something reasonable time cars will catch on because 99% of the driving public do not KNOW what is under the hood anymore, as long as they get in and can go that is all that really matters. Watch the new car ads its all about connecting.Not sure what you are connecting to but it seems important.And they never mention the motor. And most motorcyclist are just around town, short rides,and I hate to say now a days that is pretty much what I do.

Fixed it for you.   

[oldbike54]

Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them?  On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes.  On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike."  Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV.  The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical.  Where I see EV taking off is delivery service.  The route is fixed.  Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day.  Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!

 Hmm , sounds like a safety feature .

 Look fellas , battery tech is improving , we aren't going back to wood fired steam engines . It took a long time to get IC engines to work properly , and we really don't know what the future will bring . My best guess is that since the trend is to telecommuting anyway , and since most of us don't have a 90 mile commute anyway , that we will move inexorably towards E vehicles . Even out here in dumb old Oklahoma we are seeing more of them .

 Dusty

 Dusty

[Lannis]

There are a vast number of folks who might put 5000 miles total a year on all their forms of transportation combined.  **

** CITATION NEEDED, as they say.

Actually the "average" American who currently owns or leases a vehicle (the rest, those in Manhattan or somewhere who use taxis and Metros, don't count in this context because they're not buying electric motorcycles) DRIVES 16,000 miles a year, just in an automobile or on a bike.   The only demographic in that group that drives LESS than 5,000 miles a year is women over 65 years old.   So "Vast" might not be a good adjective.

Lannis

[twowheeladdict]

Another electric vehicle fail.  Yawn.  They should provide a portable bed and TV for you when you buy this bike, so you have something to do while it recharges LOL!

They will put charging stations at all the whorehouses and pubs.

[twowheeladdict]

Everyone complains about the range.  I contend the range isn't the problem, it's the "fill up" time back to !00%.  8 hours?  10?  Buy some super-voltage charger and maybe cut it down to 6 hours? Is it winter, is it summer, got to factor in temperature, you know..  Outside the commute to and from work they just don't sound very practical (I know, most people don't think ANY motorcycle is practical).  Man, I went on the ADV Live Wire post and made a few disparaging remarks about the Tesla being an "over-priced golf cart for the well-heeled."  Man, those Kool-aid drinkers got pissed!  Worse than BMW riders! Ha! I guess no one wants to be told their 100K car is a pricy golf cart.  Even if they do use them just like one.  I was surprised to learn the Tesla range is approacing 300 miles...under "optimal conditions" (like not in the mountains and not in the winter time!) That's pretty good, as long as you don't really need to go anywhere. But that still doesn't solve the long down time to recharge.  Elec. vehicles aren't practical outside the city, and thank God I don't live in the city anymore.  I like the look of the Live Wire, but like some here, think its just an expensive novelty.  Well, I guess I'd better go out and plug in the EZ-Go....

I have to constantly plug in my smart phone to maintain it's charge.  Get in the car, plug in the phone.  Get to the office, plug in the phone.  Get home, plug in the phone.  Just another habit that has to be formed if you go electric. 

Forget to plug in the phone?  Dead and you are now off grid or you learn to carry a spare. 

[bad Chad]

I had the same issue with my phone.   I ha a new battery put in and it seems like I hardly Cha ever charge it now.  How long it countinues to perform at that level, I don’t know.

[twowheeladdict]

** CITATION NEEDED, as they say.

Actually the "average" American who currently owns or leases a vehicle (the rest, those in Manhattan or somewhere who use taxis and Metros, don't count in this context because they're not buying electric motorcycles) DRIVES 16,000 miles a year, just in an automobile or on a bike.   The only demographic in that group that drives LESS than 5,000 miles a year is women over 65 years old.   So "Vast" might not be a good adjective.

Lannis

Here is an article on Averages.  https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/25/the-average-american-drives-this-much-each-year-ho.aspx

The average American might log 13,474 miles, however, most of us aren't average.  Statistically, for every one of us that drives 22,000 miles a year there is someone that drives 5000 miles a year.  The breakpoint from my insurance company is 6000 miles a year or below to get a break in insurance rate. 

There are 222 million registered drivers in the US. 

This article says that only 16 percent of drivers even ask for a discount on their insurance.  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/have-low-mileage-you-may_b_7338458

They are implying that potentially more people could qualify for a discount, but don't know to ask, but anyway that could still be 35,520,000 people who drive less than 5000 miles a year.  That is a large number of people who would potentially buy into electric vehicles.

[Rough Edge racing]

 I didn't read very post.....As a past electrical contractor it's apparent to me the current (lol) state of the electrical grid may have trouble dealing with high average quick chargers in the summer when AC loads alone tax the system...Tesla for example takes near 30 amps of 240 volts...Add that to the 30 amps of typical whole house AC load....And electrical distribution system improvements are costly and slo to happen...

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Positively shocking

[weevee]

Range isn't so important to some early adopters of electric bikes.  They just want to experience something different.  From my own point-of-view, were I to buy something like this it would probably be paired with a cheapish ICE machine, one that would serve to cover any distance riding/touring-trips.  Purchase price really isn't the issue for most seriously interested parties - it's the massive potential depreciation.  Five years from now (..certainly not twenty) electric bikes could well be selling for half the price they do now, and that's a big hit for any 2019 customer to take.

Regarding range..  Battery technology is developing fast.  This year's Formula E cars will use batteries that far outperform any previous offerings.  The same technology will filter down across the industry: https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a30969/mclaren-wins-contract-to-make-batteries-for-formula-e/ 

..and now that the Asian market is showing an interest, anything's possible.  I'll be keeping a keen look out for this one in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0bo8w9Dsz0

[Lannis]

They are implying that potentially more people could qualify for a discount, but don't know to ask, but anyway that could still be 35,520,000 people who drive less than 5000 miles a year.  That is a large number of people who would potentially buy into electric vehicles.

I'm not sure that I'm going to invest in EV stocks based on "implying", "could be", "anyway", and "potentially" based on a huffpost article!   

But anyway ....

Lannis

[oldbike54]

 It's almost like some of us haven't noticed how dramatically things have changed in our lifetimes .

 Why those new fangled cars won't work , man can't breathe if he is moving faster than 12 MPH .

 Those microwave ovens are dangerous , who would want one ?

 I got your dot com right here  This one is a personal favorite , as it was spoken at a Guzzi dinner circa 1997 by one of ours 

 Dusty

[Lannis]

[oldbike54]

 Yeah , in Virginia .

 Dusty

[Rick in WNY]

Here's a typical scenario that would keep me off an EV bike: You ride it to work, back and forth across town, just like always, 60 miles RT or so. Your leaving work when some nice young lady from data analysis says their all getting together for drinks at Louie's across town and would you like to join them?  On your Griso, you say, "Sure, I'll need some gas first, see you in 20 minutes.  On a bike like a LiveWire, you say, "uh, sorry, too far. Have to ride home and charge the bike."  Until charging stations are as common as parking meters, thats life on an EV.  The inconvenience of having a vehicle tethered to the wall for hours at a time is too impractical.  Where I see EV taking off is delivery service.  The route is fixed.  Drive the route, make the deliveries, park back at the warehouse, plug in and repeat the next day.  Perfect! And no diesel fuel spills for me to low-side on!

Mike, this is why I've been watching electric bikes for several years now, and waiting for the tech to catch up with my lifestyle.

Living in upstate NY, I can ride a motorcycle about 6 months of the year in relative comfort. My commute is 42 miles each way. The batteries are the weak link in an electric vehicle as of today. Motors and controllers have been pretty much ironed out. But batteries, regardless of chemistry, will last longer (more charge/discharge cycles) if you don't drain them below 30% charge on a regular basis. Not draining them below 50% charge gives the longest life, but the size/weight/cost of the pack is always a deciding factor.

A Zero S, with the 14.4 battery and a 3.6 Powertank option gives 18 kWh of energy storage. With the riding I do going back and forth to work, my round trip would use about 12kWh of power... so about 2/3 of that bikes total. Or, in another way, I would use 84 miles out of a 120 mile effective range. So, yes, that would cover my needs for today, and still allow for some side trips and be able to make it back home to charge.

But.... here's the nail heading for the heart. Over time, batteries degrade in their ability to store energy. By the time a battery has gotten to where it only stores 80% of it's original charge, it's time to put it out to pasture. Again, for me, that would barely cover my commute, but then I'd be running the batteries nearly to zero just to get home. Which degrades the remaining capacity faster. This situation is called a death spiral.

I would love an electric bike as a mileage sponge. But, they aren't up to the level I need.... yet. That said, it seems they're getting closer every day, so in another couple years when I'm looking at getting a new bike... an electric may be on the table for me. Time, as always, will tell.

[rocker59]

New technology has to provide intrinsic advantages over the technology it wants to replace.  People shouldn't have to change to accomodate the technology.  Technology must change to accommodate people, if it is to succeed.

Trucks and Automobiles and Tractors replaced horses in the early 20th century because they were cheaper to maintain, and could go farther and faster while hauling more.  Livery Stables were quickly replaced with Filling Stations.  The initial cost of automobiles dropped dramatically with Ford and General Motors perfecting mass production in the second decade of the 20th Century.  So cars became affordable for the masses, AND were cheaper to maintain, AND could go farther and faster while hauling more.  The use of working horses plummeted dramatically during the 1920s.

Electric vehicles will have to provide the same intrinsic value over internal combustion vehicles if electric is ever going to be more than a curiosity.  Electric automobiles have been around as long as internal combustion vehicles.  They haven't yet been able to provide the same advantage over internal combustion, as internal combustion provided over horses.

Maybe they will.  But until they perform better for the same, or less $$$$, electric automobiles, trucks, and tractors will not replace internal combustion conveyances. 

For road-going automobiles and trucks, I believe "hybrid" is the way of the (near) future.  It's the only variant of electric vehicle which has been broadly produced by a number of automakers, and they are versatile enough to integrate into the existing infrastructure, if a person needs to go farther than the battery will take them.



1891
William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa builds the first successful electric automobile in the United States.

A handful of different makes and models of electric cars are exhibited in Chicago.

1897
The first electric taxis hit the streets of New York City early in the year. The Pope Manufacturing Company of Connecticut becomes the first large-scale American electric automobile manufacturer.

1899
Believing that electricity will run autos in the future, Thomas Alva Edison begins his mission to create a long-lasting, powerful battery for commercial automobiles. Though his research yields some improvements to the alkaline battery, he ultimately abandons his quest a decade later.

1900
The electric automobile is in its heyday. Of the 4,192 cars produced in the United States 28 percent are powered by electricity, and electric autos represent about one-third of all cars found on the roads of New York City, Boston, and Chicago.

Henry Ford introduces the mass-produced and gasoline-powered Model T, which will have a profound effect on the U.S. automobile market.

1912
Charles Kettering invents the first practical electric automobile starter. Kettering's invention makes gasoline-powered autos more alluring to consumers by eliminating the unwieldy hand crank starter and ultimately helps pave the way for the electric car's demise.

1920
During the 1920s the electric car ceases to be a viable commercial product. The electric car's downfall is attributable to a number of factors, including the desire for longer distance vehicles, their lack of horsepower, and the ready availability of gasoline.

1966
Congress introduces the earliest bills recommending use of electric vehicles as a means of reducing air pollution. A Gallup poll indicates that 33 million Americans are interested in electric vehicles.

1970s
Concerns about the soaring price of oil -- peaking with the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973 -- and a growing environmental movement result in renewed interests in electric cars from both consumers and producers.

1972
Victor Wouk, the "Godfather of the Hybrid," builds the first full-powered, full-size hybrid vehicle out of a 1972 Buick Skylark provided by General Motors (G.M.) for the 1970 Federal Clean Car Incentive Program. The Environmental Protection Association later kills the program in 1976.

Vanguard-Sebring's CitiCar makes its debut at the Electric Vehicle Symposium in Washington, D.C. The CitiCar has a top speed of over 30 mph and a reliable warm-weather range of 40 miles. By 1975 the company is the sixth largest automaker in the U.S. but is dissolved only a few years later.

1975
The U.S. Postal Service purchases 350 electric delivery jeeps from AM General, a division of AMC, to be used in a test program.

1976
Congress passes the Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Research, Development, and Demonstration Act. The law is intended to spur the development of new technologies including improved batteries, motors, and other hybrid-electric components.

1988
Roger Smith, CEO of G.M. , agrees to fund research efforts to build a practical consumer electric car. G.M. teams up with California's AeroVironment to design what would become the EV1, which one employee called "the world's most efficient production vehicle." Some electric vehicle enthusiasts have speculated that the EV1 was never undertaken as a serious commercial venture by the large automaker.

1990
California passes its Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Mandate, which requires two percent of the state's vehicles to have no emissions by 1998 and 10 percent by 2003. The law is repeatedly weakened over the next decade to reduce the number of pure ZEVs it requires.

1997
Toyota unveils the Prius -- the world's first commercially mass-produced and marketed hybrid car -- in Japan. Nearly 18,000 units are sold during the first production year.

1997 - 2000
A few thousand all-electric cars (such as Honda's EV Plus, G.M.'s EV1, Ford's Ranger pickup EV, Nissan's Altra EV, Chevy's S-10 EV, and Toyota's RAV4 EV) are produced by big car manufacturers, but most of them are available for lease only. All of the major automakers' advanced all-electric production programs will be discontinued by the early 2000s.

2002
G.M. and DaimlerChrysler sue the California Air Resources Board (CARB) to repeal the ZEV mandate first passed in 1990. The Bush Administration joins that suit.

Crushed EV1 electric cars Crushed EV1 electric cars2003
G.M. announces that it will not renew leases on its EV1 cars saying it can no longer supply parts to repair the vehicles and that it plans to reclaim the cars by the end of 2004.

2005
On February 16, electric vehicle enthusiasts begin a "Don't Crush" vigil to stop G.M. from demolishing 78 impounded EV1s in Burbank, California. The vigil ends twenty-eight days later when G.M. removes the cars from the facility. In the film "Who Killed the Electric Car" G.M. spokesman Dave Barthmuss states that the EV1s are to be recycled, not just crushed.

2006

Tesla Motors publicly unveils the ultra-sporty Tesla Roadster at the San Francisco International Auto Show in November. The first production Roadsters will be sold in 2008 with a base price listing of $98,950.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html

[oldbike54]

 ^^^ All true brother Mike , except traffic laws and cultural norms had to change dramatically to allow for the introduction of the automobile . Then we needed to build more paved roads , service stations , repair shops , parts houses , all of the changes to infrastructure that allowed for the automobile to flourish .

 Dusty

[Lannis]

^^^ All true brother Mike , except traffic laws and cultural norms had to change dramatically to allow for the introduction of the automobile . Then we needed to build more paved roads , service stations , repair shops , parts houses , all of the changes to infrastructure that allowed for the automobile to flourish .

 Dusty

That's true too.   

And when a technology comes along to replace IC engines that makes the same leap in functionality, usability, and economy as the automobile was over the horse (absolutely revolutionary changes, then), then the descendants of the same people that replaced livery stables with gas stations and tack shops with NAPA stores will do the same to accommodate that technology (electric vehicles etc.) .....

Lannis

[oldbike54]

That's true too.   

And when a technology comes along to replace IC engines that makes the same leap in functionality, usability, and economy as the automobile was over the horse (absolutely revolutionary changes, then), then the descendants of the same people that replaced livery stables with gas stations and tack shops with NAPA stores will do the same to accommodate that technology (electric vehicles etc.) .....

Lannis

 Also true , likely to happen in the future , probably after all of the curmudgeons are long gone . Change is a constant , no amount of teeth gnashing has ever prevented change .

 Dusty

[Lannis]

Also true , likely to happen in the future , probably after all of the curmudgeons are long gone . Change is a constant , no amount of teeth gnashing has ever prevented change .

 Dusty

The curmudgeons are NEVER all gone.   Every time a curmudgeon goes, one (sometimes two) comes along to take his place, just due to the natural development of wisdom and experience and remembrance of history.

The number of curmudgeons is a constant and maybe growing number, mainly because although CHANGE will always occur, change in the areas that people THINK things will change does NOT always occur.   

People have sworn over the years that huge changes will occur in some areas, and documented it in the (still available) popular press, things like flying cars and electric cars and Mars colonies and jet backpacks and 200-year lifespans and personal helicopters.   For every one who said "Them dang horseless carriages will never make it" (and those people are theoretical and seldom documented), there are 20 who would write down things like "By 1985, the world will be completely out of oil" and PROVE it.

The trick is not to say "Well they said backyard fusion reactors would be a 21st century reality, and they were wrong, so electric cars won't make it either" OR to say "I heard about someone who said microwave ovens would poison food and now he's got one, so electric cars are coming, count on it" ...

.... but to look at the actual situation, along with the history, and the practicalities, and make a judgment call from that (which there are many of on here) and tell folks what conclusions you've drawn FROM THAT DATA, not just "it's coming so lay back and learn to enjoy it".   Everything is NOT coming, just some .. and the very valid and debatable question is "ARE EVs one of those things?"

Lannis