Flat Tappet Recall for 8v - Complaint Pending with US Recall Agency

[Vasco DG]

Ok o great, wise, litigator. Explain to me, a small independent, one man shop, how I am going to leverage Piaggio into paying me my full hourly rate to diagnose and fix every bike I get through?

There is this wonderful naive belief among many that you get paid for warranty. You don't. You get paid nothing for diagnosis time and are credited 'X' number of hours for the repair, calculated by them, not on how long it actually takes and you aren't ever actually paid money, it is given to you as a credit against your parts account! Whoopee duck! The 'Pay Rate' is also about 2/3rds my hourly rate. Oh, no payment for the time of filing and then clarifying issues on the claim either.

Yes, the fact that machines continued to be sold when the problem was known to be insolvable is unconscionable, I've stated that many times. But it would be nice if just occasionally there wasn't this blustering "Me, Me, Me!" Outrage because it makes me feel like the meat in the bloody sandwich!

By far the easiest thing for me to do would be to do as Piaggio do and just deny it is a problem. I don't find that ethically acceptable. But all this high-horse screeching is getting on my tits.

Pete

[bad Chad]

Never mind, I see Pete just beat me to press, and answered with far more clarity than I did, no need to read the rest of this post.

I'm not sure, but I think what Pete is at least partially alluding to, is Piaggio, like many MFG, don't pay the real cost of warranty work, especially on bigger jobs like this.  They often pay in credit, and its usually less than is actually deserved.

And yes, that's not the customers fault or problem, however, if you respect the position that dealers and agents are put in you can see why they might not be thrilled and the thought of being swamped with warranty work.

[drw916]

My dealer is the opposite.  I have spoke to them and they are willing to do what they can whenever I am ready.  Probably take it to them over winter to check it out.  No obvious signs of a problem at 30000 miles, but I could probably have a cylinder fall off without noticing it.

[oldbike54]

     I'm by no means up on legal processes, but most states in the USA have Lemon Laws and to my mind this may qualify as  being in that category as a avenue of recourse for some.

 Most states lemon laws only apply if a vehicle is repeatedly repaired during the warranty period , not the case here .

  Dusty

[MotoG5]

Just a few comments here. I am not knocking LBC Tenni for trying but I do think Pete and the others that feel its a lost cause are right. During all of the back and forth involved with my dealer in getting me the kit and a reimbursement for it a few things that Piaggio did may have been just enough to cover their butts. They did refer to the replacement as a factory recall all be it one with " conditions". Those being that the bike was demonstrating signs of a problem and that once opened up damage was found and pictures of same provided and a claim filed. They did also stipulate that each claim would be decided on a case by case basis. That left many owners with the gamble of opening up the bike to see if a problem was happening. To bad it was not known until some months later here in 2015 that they would all show damage and need to be converted. I opened up my bike even though it showed no signs (it was out of warranty anyway) and of course found missing DLC. Pictures were sent to my dealer ( the dealer was actually 800 miles away) and he filed the claim for me. I bought the B kit needed and installed it myself. A month or so later the claim was approved and I received the money to cover the cost of the kit. So in my case Piaggio did kind of address the issue. Still lame as hell and in my opinion this has damaged Guzzi's reputation and made it obvious to all that Guzzi is these days just a division of large corporation that is not to worried about dealer support or customer relations. But that's about it.


 

[Vasco DG]

My dealer is the opposite.  I have spoke to them and they are willing to do what they can whenever I am ready.  Probably take it to them over winter to check it out.  No obvious signs of a problem at 30000 miles, but I could probably have a cylinder fall off without noticing it.

At the moment any flat tappet 8V that comes into my shop I strongly recommend the owner stump up the couple of hours to have me inspect the top end. Since I revised my opinion on the issue and started suggesting this I haven't had a single machine in that wasn't showing damage. Some of them, like mine, weren't showing any of the tell-tales I've come to recognise as evidence that damage was occurring but inspection proved that it was. Live and learn.

In the vast majority of these cases I have been able to get the claim approved. It's been touch and go sometimes and there have been a couple that have left a really nasty taste in the mouth but overall I've been able to get the vast majority sorted. I have a particularly difficult one coming in this week because it was sold by the ex Canberra dealer and they never bothered giving the owner his service books but I'll try my hardest to get it approved. Really though it's like playing Russian Roulette with Piaggio holding the bullets!

Not all dealers want to be bothered with that sort of thing though. Many of them, and their mechanics, still seem to be blissfully unaware of the issue. I'm currently trying to get one of the mechanics at one of the largest dealerships in the country up to speed. Dunno if it will work, he's a nice enough guy. His boss OTOH.......

[Vasco DG]

Yesterday when I took my Norge in for service I asked the cost to make mine a roller and was told they would not do it. If the bike made 10,000 to 15,000 miles it would probably not fail. Since the cost was so high to fix it they have chosen to let the customers bikes self destruct and then  would be there to rebuild.
It would appear they don't believe in being pro-active.

That is beyond stupid!

[acogoff]

Most states lemon laws only apply if a vehicle is repeatedly repaired during the warranty period , not the case here .

  Dusty

   I stand corrected Dusty as I am indeed not a "mighty litigator" and just an interested spectator of an unfortunate pissing match that will not have a good outcome for anyone. Leaving now with my tail between my legs and back into my mole hole.

[oldbike54]

   I stand corrected Dusty as I am indeed not a "mighty litigator" and just an interested spectator of an unfortunate pissing match that will not have a good outcome for anyone. Leaving now with my tail between my legs and back into my mole hole.

 Wasn't meant that way at all , no need to place your tail between your legs  We are in fact looking for ideas here , hell , I have no inkling of how this should be dealt with , Pete is on the front lines , I have to respect his input . It is frustrating for sure .

  Dusty

[canuguzzi]

Most states lemon laws only apply if a vehicle is repeatedly repaired during the warranty period , not the case here .

  Dusty

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Semantics.

Here is the thing, this is business. Just look what happened, it comes to some very well respected people who dedicate their free time, a great value to many here, gratis.

If Pete is getting hosed for $300 on each machine he fixes where there to be a general recall to fix it, that means Moto Guzzi is in effect making that $300 and putting it into their pocket.

The only reason Moto Guzzi exists, the only reason its dealers exist is because of the people buying new motorcycles. The used bike market isn't putting much money into anyone's pocket and parts sales wouldn't sustain anyone alone.

Yes, dealers do take a hit for warranty work. For this reason I happen to take the Norge in for what many here would say is something to be done by the owner. Fork oil change? Dealer. Brake and clutch fluid change? Dealer. Throttle body sync and valves? Dealer. Tire change? Dealer. Lubes other than engine oil? Dealer. So when it comes time for warranty work, hey, I've also contributed far and above whatever hit they might take. That is me though, not everyone but as someone wise once told me:

You are number one, never forget your number.

[bad Chad]

"Yes, dealers do take a hit for warranty work. For this reason I happen to take the Norge in for what many here would say is something to be done by the owner. "

Really, you take your Norge in for work you would otherwise do yourself, but for your desire to give your local Guzzi dealer the business???   It has little to do with you not wanting to do it yourself?   Good on you then, any Guzzi dealer would love to have more customers like you.

[oldbike54]

 NP , if you are going to apply a law , it must be applicable . In this case it isn't . Arguing after the fact doesn't work .

  Dusty

[canuguzzi]

Both Honda and Polaris had recalls this year for engines that might stop running during operation. The stated problem that could result?

The engine could stop running increasing the potential for a crash. The precedent is there.

For Honda, a bad starter switch. For Polaris, the engine could seize. In both cases, the loss if engine operation was determined to be a safety issue, hence the recalls.

The lemon law and a safety recall are two different things. Furthermore, a bike can be a lemon from the owner's perspective or anyone else's perspective. I was not arguing for application of the lemon law, I do maintain that the bikes with flat tappet problems are lemons and I never used that word to argue the application of the claim going to the NTSA.

Do a simple search for engine related motorcycle recalls, you'll see that engine operation failures are a safety issue, its not even a question.

The difference is that both Honda and Polaris are fixing the problem at Jo cost to the customer.

Why anyone would not want to see Moto Guzzi repair all flat tappet bikes free if charge to the owner is strange.  It isn't going to break MG and regardless, it is better to screw the customers who bought the affected bikes?

One strategy I'd suggest to the OP is to find an affected owner in California. A simple website would so it along with some Google Words ads. A small investment to find all affected owners, propose the solution and other remedies. Those remedies being left to the imagination.

Then let the process go forward since the wheels are in motion.

[Vasco DG]

Why anyone would not want to see Moto Guzzi repair all flat tappet bikes free if charge to the owner is strange.  It isn't going to break MG and regardless, it is better to screw the customers who bought the affected bikes?

Did you read a word I wrote?

[LowRyter]

I think Tenni is right.  He's the only one trying to fix this.  If I had one I'd be right there with him.






Bluto: Hey! What's all this laying around stuff? Why are you all still laying around here for?
Stork: What the hell are we supposed to do, ya moron? We're all expelled. There's nothing to fight for anymore.
D-Day: [to Bluto] Let it go. War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: [to Boon] Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard of something to say]
Bluto: The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[Bluto runs out, alone; then returns]
Bluto: What the f$!k happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...
Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.
D-Day: [stands up] Yeah, I agree. Let's go get 'em.
Boon: Let's do it.
Bluto: [shouting] "Let's do it"!

[molly]

Dealers are between a rock and a hard place on this one. Warranty work can be a big deciding factor whether a dealer stays with a brand or not. Two of my  local dealers have dropped Ducati and Triumph in the past due to the factories attitude to warranty work so it isn't unique to Guzzi.
The guy I deal with has a similar attitude to Pete Roper in that there is a problem and it needs sorting. He has a good relationship with the factory and no trouble getting approval for warranty work and is quietly mopping up all the flat tappet problems. But he is in the minority of one as far as I can tell. Maybe his business model allows him to behave in the way he does because his focus is more on servicing and spares rather than a large showroom.

[Chuck in Indiana]

It isn't going to break MG and regardless

snip

I'd say it could. Just my opinion, but I think they are trying to quietly sweep the problem under the rug. That's what they did with the Lario back in the day. I know of several people that "had" a Lario, and haven't had a Guzzi since..

[lucian]

Seems to me that even if they are forced into a recall , in the end the consumer will pick up the costs, when Piaggio factors the costs into their bottom line. That means higher prices for new bikes and parts not to mention the hit that good dealers like Pete will take on the mandated service work. They too will have to recoup the costs somehow .  I can't quite make the safety connection to a tappet failure but I am sure the right lawyer probably could. Now a swing arm failure that's another story. Personally I think Piaggio has implemented a fair policy in regards to failures and those who have done scheduled services are being provided a fix. I doubt things would be any different, and maybe even worse with other brands .

[old as dirt 2]

yamaha 2015 R1 are being recalled for the transmissions as  the gears could break and cause a lock up. owners are advised to not ride the bikes. this is a safety recall.

[George_S]

The best path is not to defeat yourself before you get started. Make the claim, let them figure it out.

This isn't one bike or a few, it is all of them so manufactured. Big difference between some bikes doing something and all if them.

But you ARE defeated before you start since a problem like this is not even part of what they are tasked to involve themselves with.

[canuguzzi]

But you ARE defeated before you start since a problem like this is not even part of what they are tasked to involve themselves with.

One more time. Search for engine related motorcycle recalls, plenty if them including currently active. Engine failure is acknowledged as a safety issue, to say or imply otherwise disregards the facts as recognized by the motorcycle manufacturers themselves.

Then, whenever you go after something, go all the way, not some half heated one shot Jonnie. It doesn't matter if the NTSA won't issue a recall. It makes noise.

I worked for a governmental regulatory agency and you will be amazed at what they will address. They also talk to and cooperate with other agencies and some of them do engage in issues like this.

The concerns it seems some have over damaging the marque or whatever is understandable but let's not forget who created the problem, who is doing little to fix it and who seems to care less. That would be Moto Guzzi.

The name of the game is pressure. Pressure is often a solution that works and no one gets to formal judgements and such.

Anyone with a flat tappet bike is free to refuse remedy if the claims are successful. Dig into your own pocket to fix the engine with the satisfaction that you did what you think is right.

[LowRyter]

well said NP. 

I hope the naysayers will note your insight.

[George_S]

Yeah, search for "Engine related motorcycle recalls" and you know what you'll find?
Some recalls initiated by the manufacturers. Honda, Polaris, Yamaha, Suzuki. Didn't see any by NHTSA.

The poster who said you all should direct your complaints to  M.G. IMO, has a better plan.

[JeffOlson]

Perhaps I missed it, but why on earth would a dealer or mechanic not be paid for their warranty and service work, either by the factory or by the customer?

I understand how lawyers can be made to work for free (because, as officers of the court, they cannot just quit if their clients are not paying them; they need the court's permission to withdraw, and sometimes it is not granted), but how can a dealer or mechanic be made to work for free?

[Vasco DG]

Contractural obligation if you are a dealer or service agent. It's not for free, it's just wholly inadequate. The thing is warranty is supposed to cover rare occurrences of problems due to poor manufacture or assembly but it is often used as a way of cheaply fixing major screw-ups. eg the Cappo output shaft fiasco!

Pete

[Larry]

Dig into your own pocket to fix the engine with the satisfaction that you did what you think is right.

That's the plan. Pete's got my Stelvio now, waiting for an A Kit - waiting, waiting 

For me it's not a matter of right or wrong by MG.
The fact is I KNEW the flats could fail, although it was a very rare thing when I bought mine. So I got the services done knowing it could be my only come back - first time I've done that on any bike, especially Guzzi and this is my third Guzzi.

So I'll not be wingeing and whining, I'll get on with life, wait for Pete to what he does, then go and ride hard knowing the bottom end could fall out of the thing in the future.
Do I have the money to throw away on this? No! I'm a penniless preacher, but there are a whole lot more important things in life than a few hundred $s. And don't talk to me about principles, if you knew the flats had problems when you bought, suck it up and move on!! And if you didn't, suck it up and move on anyway because most of us are too old to be letting this tear our guts apart.

Just my 2 bobs worth 

[canuguzzi]

Contractural obligation if you are a dealer or service agent. It's not for free, it's just wholly inadequate. The thing is warranty is supposed to cover rare occurrences of problems due to poor manufacture or assembly but it is often used as a way of cheaply fixing major screw-ups. eg the Cappo output shaft fiasco!

Pete

And that right there is why sometimes, a lawsuit seeking monetary compensation works better, the dealer is out of the picture other than if the bike owner goes to them for the repair.

Once the remedy works through dealership channels, the factory can milk dealers to starvation.unfortun antly, seeking the other option means that owners pay for the repair and then engage in litigation to recover for damages.

There is no easy way, only the crappy way no matter how it turns out.

[canuguzzi]

Most people who bought flat tappet bikes didn't do so thinking or knowing this problem would come up.

Those owners that bought with the information up front, sure, eat the cost as you knew what was going to happen. Here is the thing though, Internet forums, while helpful are not the grail when it comes to knowing all and not everyone scours the forums for information be fore buying, there are a lot of hysterics on forums too.

If everyone knew about the problem, the solution was simple, let them sit on dealer floorspace until they sold for next to nothing and take your chances or have the upgrade done before the bike ever left the dealer.

Yes, the search reveals recalls for failed engine operation, not by the NTSA but that wasn't and isn't the point, the point was the recall. Had a single owner crashed and that been attributed to loss of engine operation it could get ugle and the manufacturers knowing this along with heading off a lit if bad PR decided to recall those bikes.

If Honda has a problem and doesn't fix it, someone else comes along and uses the opportunity to lure dissatisfied customers away. MG with so few buyers to start with probably doesn't care, dissatisfied Honda buyers aren't running to buy Moto Guzzi bikes.

Writing to Moto Guzzi isn't going to do a thing. If it would, it already would have. It will take pressure and that means throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

A recall, when it comes to bikes doesn't look bad or reflect poorly on the brand, not fixing a problem affecting every bike within a certain model and configuration is what dies the damage.

No, the visitors to WG keep doing what they are doing but that isn't everyone, not close. MG wants to attract new customers and while new models can do some of that, the demographic being targeted, the younger crowd, aren't usually the wrenching types or the ones who want to fork out significant sums to fix major problems that should not exist.

If you try to sell you flat tappet bike, your market got a lot smaller. There are people who won't touch them even if you did the upgrade. How do they know you did it right as we know that other things can be affected.

I'm not a mechanic nor do I want to fix major components on a bike that should not need fixing, easier to buy something else. Anything can happen and if my Norge were to eat its main bearing after warranty is out, well that is on me. If every Norge was eating its main bearing just after warranty, a whole different story if MG knew it would happen.

Pretty sure we'd like to see MG prosper, develop lots if new bikes in the future but that isn't going to happen if they won't address these kinds of problems with honesty and integrity.

Riding a Moto Guzzi should mean more than the $ in your bank account and your willingness to strap a mattress on your front side so that MG can ballast its bottom line by going through your backside.

[lucian]

Riding a Moto Guzzi should mean more than the $ in your bank account and your willingness to strap a mattress on your front side so that MG can ballast its bottom line by going through your backside.


Could someone please rephrase this sentence . It is written far to eloquently. 

[Cool Runnings]

Contractural obligation if you are a dealer or service agent. It's not for free, it's just wholly inadequate. The thing is warranty is supposed to cover rare occurrences of problems due to poor manufacture or assembly but it is often used as a way of cheaply fixing major screw-ups. eg the Cappo output shaft fiasco!

Pete

What hourly labor rate do they pay?