What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin

[oldbike54]

 This seems amusing , seems even HD calls the rear cylinder cut out ...



                                                                   PARADE MODE


   
                             
   Dusty

[redrider90]

Did you buy a Toyota in 2011 ??  It's usually the Toyota owners who go on and on about CR.

Investors on the street don't give a damn about a big corporation's product.  They only care about stock performance today, and in the future.  Sad, but true.  They're buying the stock and may not know anything about the company's product.  in 1988 a smart guy told me he'd never invest in HD stock  (it was trading at $9 and something).  Smart guy, huh?
 

  Basing a stock buying decision off a Consumer Reports customer satisfaction survey seems wonky to me.  But that's just me.  And I do understand that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

You are a funny guy. I am not going on and on about CR. The article was from Motley Fool and they used CR as the source for MC reliability.  I have never owned a Toyota ( me thinks you really meant Prius  ) Motley Fool used CR as source material for the article and CRs finding to discuss HOG's future so it stands to reason that if I was going to use Motley Fool I had to include CR source material otherwise what's the point of me quoting Motley Fool?
 Well HOG was trading at $8.33 as recently as 2010 so your friend was not so wrong. HOG peaked with the housing boom and the baby boom and busted with the housing boom.  Their stock price is now down 34% in the last 2 years. Toys are the first thing to go when a recession hits. That and eating out.
So you own their bike but would you buy their stock? Is HOG going to continue to grow enough to see stock growth. But Polaris has really tanked in the same time. But they sell more toys than just motorcycles.
I think Harley has managed to prop up their market share but the competition is bitting at their heels. Guzzi isn't going to touch them but with the resurgence of Victory and Indian which was not included in that survey because they were to0 new to the market it remains to be seen how Harley fairs the competition.
 

[Kev m]

Red, CR reports (or JD powers) have always been full of homes based on the nature of their samples. They don't quantify whether the complaint is a flaking piece of chrome or a failed oil pump, an intermittent grated grip or failed driveshaft. Did their report at least quantify failures in terms of number by reported mileage?

That's not to say there may not be a trend of truthfulness to them, but I don't think the reports show the full picture. Certainly not from my experience.

George, you haven't established a fact yet or addressed my reports of cases to the contrary, nor my recommendations why it's not all about the air stream.

Not to mention the "feature" in question is for IDLE ONLY, where there is no airflow. The reason they chose the rear cylinder is simply that's the one closest to the rider. If they put the motor behind the rider then they'd have deactivated the front cylinder for the same reason.

Again, science has taught us again and again that you can't simply accept assumptions based on what you think is common sense because reality often includes factors you didn't think of.

I would concede only that it is true much of the time and for many circumstances, but that variances in frame design, tuning, and ambient conditions generally mitigate it to a non-issue (a small difference when present) and that it is wrong to assume the rear cylinder temp will always be higher, because it is fact that sometimes it's not. I've seen that with my own eyes and I'm not alone.

[Kev m]

Back around 2004 I had a small amount of money to put in the market.
A friend's father was an investment broker and he recommend HOG. I disagreed as I thought that Harley could not sustain the numbers so I did not buy the stock and glad I did not. You might buy their bike buy would you invest your retirement in their stock?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't it have been a good investment in 04, as long as you sold before the market crash? And hell, it would definitely have been a good investment anytime from the 90's till then.

Some friends of ours paid for their Harleys using profit from stock purchases they made that time frame.

[Kev m]

Red, I'll add that there were many times in the past two decades I wished I could have bought stock in HD, but right now I wouldn't. Well, I might in the next few years, I'm waiting to see how low it goes and what prospects I believe they have.

That said, I will never forgive my company financial advisor who refused to let me sell $10k of mutual funds and buy Ford shares during the crash when they reached $1. Ugh. Long story, but still hurts when I think about it.

[redrider90]

Red, CR reports (or JD powers) have always been full of homes based on the nature of their samples. They don't quantify whether the complaint is a flaking piece of chrome or a failed oil pump, an intermittent grated grip or failed driveshaft. Did their report at least quantify failures in terms of number by reported mileage?

Kev,
I'll quote the article again. It was in my original post. They DID  quantify whether the complaint was serious. In fact that was the whole point of the survey.
" Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four.

[oldbike54]

 So we should all be riding Yamahas ?

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Kev,
I'll quote the article again. It was in my original post. They DID  quantify whether the complaint was serious. In fact that was the whole point of the survey.
" Only about one Yamaha bike in 10 has experienced a major problem or required a serious repair over the past four years, according to the 4,424 motorcycle owners surveyed by CR. In contrast, about one BMW motorcycle in three has suffered from such a complaint -- and one Harley in four.

So what's their definition of serious?

And how many miles travelled total on the Yamahas surveyed vs. Harleys vs. BMWs?

I see a LOT fewer Yamahas in my travels than either of the other brands and and though Harleys may have their share of garage queens they also have a large number of road warriors similar to BMWs reputation for customers that eat up the miles.

[oldbike54]

 Pitt bulls have nothing on some of us 

  Dusty

[rocker59]

How many of the 4400 respondents owned Yamahas ?

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of the 4400 respondents

The total of 4400 respondents giving feedback for the USA motorcycle market really makes me laugh.

[redrider90]

So we should all be riding Yamahas ?

 Dusty

  Yep I going looking this weekend based solely on CR reviews. 
But actually CR change the game in 2015 and looked at bikes differently.
From an up to date Motley Fool article so now I decided to go look at Victory's instead of Yamaha's.      (I do own a Yamaha generator)
Really just kidding. Only way to part with my Goose is to pry my cold dead hand from the brake handle after I  T-bone some bonehead. 

"What's Consumer Reports been up to lately?
In a pilot project, CR began rating motorcycle brands for both reliability and consumer satisfaction (i.e., whether they'd buy one again) in 2013. Last year, we took a quick look at the reliability stats and were somewhat surprised to see that Harley-Davidson was rated not the worst motorcycle manufacturer in the world, necessarily -- but the second worst.

Today, we're going to flip the page and take a look at what Consumer Reports has been saying about Harley (and its rivals) in the consumer satisfaction department. Here's how the "top five" rankings for 2015 shake out.
Harley-Davidson comes in No. 2 in this race. Harley holds a slight lead over Honda (NYSE:HMC) and has a bigger buffer between it and BMW and Can-Am (a division of Bombardier). But Harley still lags Victory motorcycles by a pretty significant margin.

Victory, incidentally, is a brand owned by ATV and snowmobile specialist Polaris Industries (NYSE:PII). And out of all the motorcycle brands surveyed by CR, it comes out tops, winning the magazine's top marks in the categories of "owner satisfaction," styling," "acceleration," "handling," "comfort," and "fun." In fact, the only survey category where this Polaris subsidiary failed to win CR's coveted "bull's-eye" rating was "cost of maintenance and repair."

[redrider90]

How many of the 4400 respondents owned Yamahas ?

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of the 4400 respondents

The total of 4400 respondents giving feedback for the USA motorcycle market really makes me laugh.

Out of curiosity I just looked and CR posted the whole article online. The latest article had 12,000 bikes.

From CR http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/05/motorcycle-reliability-and-owner-satisfaction/index.htm

"Our survey of subscribers who reported on more than 12,300 motorcycles from model years 2008 to 2014 also showed that bike categories have differing levels of reliability. For this analysis, we adjusted for mileage driven over a 12-month period and estimated repair rates for 4-year-old models without a service contract".

[Kev m]

Red, that's interesting from a number of different views.

For one, every experience I've had or heard about with Victory has been positive. It seems like the bikes are really well built.

That said, they are HIGHLY under-represented in the marketplace, almost to the level of Guzzi.

So statistically it does make you wonder about the data.

Personally I would consider a Victory in a heartbeat if they just made a model that wasn't so FRIGGIN UGLY!

The Judge came real close, then they changed it to forward controls and lost me, then they renamed it.

And ironically, just like Harley, their baggers have more ground clearance than their smaller/lighter models like the Judge.

So I was grinding footpegs on the Judge which also sorta took it out of consideration, while the floorboards on the Cross Country or Cross Tour or whatever were fine. But then the bags and the turn signals and even the floorboards on the touring models look horrible.

Enter Indian, but their tourers though so much better looking are behemoths.

Now here's the real irony. In many dimensions the RK is the "smaller" bike when looking at Victory, Indian, and even Guzzi tourers (the Cali having a weight advantage over the RK, but it's still physically bigger/longer).

[redrider90]

Pitt bulls have nothing on some of us 

  Dusty

I prefer to think of myself as a border collie.

[rocker59]

You are a funny guy.

I am not going on and on about CR.

I never said you were.   

I have never owned a Toyota

your stock has just gone up.   

The article was from Motley Fool and they used CR as the source for MC reliability.  Motley Fool used CR as source material for the article and CRs finding to discuss HOG's future so it stands to reason that if I was going to use Motley Fool I had to include CR source material otherwise what's the point of me quoting Motley Fool?

Motley who?  No, really.

Well HOG was trading at $8.33 as recently as 2010 so your friend was not so wrong. HOG peaked with the housing boom and the baby boom and busted with the housing boom.  Their stock price is now down 34% in the last 2 years. Toys are the first thing to go when a recession hits. That and eating out.

Stocks are bought and sold.  Sold and bought.  What was HOG's high in the 2006/2007 time frame?  Yes, lots of people made lots of money on that stock.

So you own their bike but would you buy their stock? Is HOG going to continue to grow enough to see stock growth. But Polaris has really tanked in the same time. But they sell more toys than just motorcycles.

No.  I don't own an HD.  Honestly, I haven't been keeping up with the stock over the past few years.  I don't own their stock, either.  That's not to say I wouldn't, or I won't.  I have and I might. 

Just like any consumer product over the past 60-years, HD has relied heavily on the baby-boomers for support.  HD has to dramatically broaden their demographic if they want to survive.  The baby-boomers are beginning to age-out, as we're well aware in the Guzzi community.  There are indications that HD is broadening their demographic, but time will tell.  Personally, I think they will adapt and persevere.

Harley holds a special place in the market.  The patriotic one.  That helps them perform on the showroom and in the stock market differently from an appliance company.  Personally, if the stock went any lower over the next six-months, I'd be inclined to buy.  It may not have as much up-side as it did in the '90s and '00s, but it's cheap and has plenty of room to move.

I think Harley has managed to prop up their market share but the competition is bitting at their heels. Guzzi isn't going to touch them but with the resurgence of Victory and Indian which was not included in that survey because they were to0 new to the market it remains to be seen how Harley fairs the competition.

"Prop up their market share"?  what do you mean? 

"Competition biting at their heels"?  in what meaningful way?

My opinion on Victory and Indian is that they will take sales from both HD and from the Asians.  I don't think they'll be a real threat to either, as far as market share goes,  over the next few years, but they will be growing by taking disaffected customers from all the cruiser OEMs.

Harley and Honda are the two monsters in the USA streetbike market.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Rough Edge racing]

From Popular Mechanics, 2012....

Harley-Davidson's air-cooled V-Twin remains a stubbornly anachronistic signature of the American motorcycle manufacturer, and its most potent expression comes in the form of the 110 cubic inch (1,803cc) Screamin' Eagle lump currently found in the CVO lineup. Producing 122 lb-ft of torque, this is the most powerful Harley engine to date; as such, an oil cooler can only go so in protecting this puppy from soaring temps.

How does Harley keep this mill from melting when mercury hits triple digits? One feature engineered into air-cooled Harley engines is a function called Rear Cylinder Cutout. Because the aft cylinder tends to run warmer since it doesn't benefit from the airflow that hits the front cylinder, RCC seeks to equalize the difference by shutting off fuel and spark to the back cylinder if the engine idles for more than 3 seconds above 288� F. Once the air-only mix drops the combustion chamber temperature to 275� F, normal operation resumes. RCC was introduced in 2008, and was actuated by a cable before the 2009 model year, when throttle-by-wire technology was introduced.

 Some dramatic editorial tongue flapping.... " stubbornly anachronistic....Sc reamin Eagle lump.....puppy...." And then says the front cylinder gets no air flow.....but the cylinder cut out only operates after 3 minutes of idling above 288F head temperature.....And the airflow when stationary at  idle is ?
 Great reporting...

[rocker59]

Great reporting...

Only the best at Popular Mechanics!

[redrider90]

[rocker59]

That must be the "over 800cc streetbike" pie chart.

[Tobit]

Regarding HD's parade mode, or RCC, if the rider wants that staggered idle it can be defeated by rolling the twistgrip forward at a stop.  At least that's what the manual says for the 2014 Street Glide I rode.  The RCC kicked in even during the cold weather I was riding in so maybe that's how the newer bikes operate.  I didn't mind.  There wasn't a hiccup or glitch anywhere in the powerband nor did the RCC intrude on stoplight takeoffs.


Tobit.

[Cool Runnings]

So we should all be riding Yamahas ?

 Dusty

If you don't want to worry about breakdowns with minimal maintenance, yes.

03 FJR - zero problems
05 Royal Star - zero problem

[Cool Runnings]

So what's their definition of serious?

And how many miles travelled total on the Yamahas surveyed vs. Harleys vs. BMWs?

I see a LOT fewer Yamahas in my travels than either of the other brands and and though Harleys may have their share of garage queens they also have a large number of road warriors similar to BMWs reputation for customers that eat up the miles.

The last version of the Royal Star is good engine wise for 250,000 miles without any rebuild. The V-max motor was and still is the best Yamaha has ever offered. Liquid cooled V4. 

[Cool Runnings]

I prefer to think of myself as a border collie.

High maintenance. 

[Triple Jim]

Regarding HD's parade mode, or RCC, if the rider wants that staggered idle it can be defeated by rolling the twistgrip forward at a stop.

There's also a setup that lets you choose not to ever go into that mode, at least from what I've read.

[George_S]

I really didn't expect you to concede anything, even when faced with the fact of the matter. And no, the real reason they chose the rear cylinder is because it probably gets 15-20 degrees hotter than the front cylinder when at idle. If the rear is in normal temperature operating range, why shut it down at all? There have been times when the front cylinder is at 275-280 degrees and the rear is at 290. You're going to shut the cylinder that is hot enough to risk engine damage, not the other one. And before you ask where I got my temperature numbers and that I don't have any proof of what I am saying, blah, blah,  those numbers came from my experience as a motor officer with knowledge of what traffic duty and parades was doing to my engine.  I had more than a few discussions with dealers and even the H-D offices in Milwaukee in the years before they produced 'parade mode' bikes.   In those years they recommended the electric cooling fans to prevent engine damage from heat, and they specifically mentioned it was for the rear cylinder especially. 

Red, CR reports (or JD powers) have always been full of homes based on the nature of their samples. They don't quantify whether the complaint is a flaking piece of chrome or a failed oil pump, an intermittent grated grip or failed driveshaft. Did their report at least quantify failures in terms of number by reported mileage?

That's not to say there may not be a trend of truthfulness to them, but I don't think the reports show the full picture. Certainly not from my experience.

George, you haven't established a fact yet or addressed my reports of days to the contrary, nor my recommendations why it's not all about the air stream.

Not to mention the "feature" in question is for IDLE ONLY, where there is no airflow. The reason they chose the rear cylinder is simply that's the one closest to the rider. If they put the motor behind the rider then they'd have deactivated the front cylinder for the same reason.

Again, science has taught us again and again that you can't simply accept assumptions based on what you think is common sense because reality often includes factors you didn't think of.

I would concede only that it is true much of the time and for many circumstances, but that variances in frame design, tuning, and ambient conditions generally mitigate it to a non-issue (a small difference when present) and that it is wrong to assume the rear cylinder temp will always be higher, because it is fact that sometimes it's not. I've seen that with my own eyes and I'm not alone.

[Kev m]

I really didn't expect you to concede anything, even when faced with the fact of the matter. And no, the real reason they chose the rear cylinder is because it probably gets 15-20 degrees hotter than the front cylinder when at idle. If the rear is in normal temperature operating range, why shut it down at all? There have been times when the front cylinder is at 275-280 degrees and the rear is at 290. You're going to shut the cylinder that is hot enough to risk engine damage, not the other one. And before you ask where I got my temperature numbers and that I don't have any proof of what I am saying, blah, blah,  those numbers came from my experience as a motor officer with knowledge of what traffic duty and parades was doing to my engine.  I had more than a few discussions with dealers and even the H-D offices in Milwaukee in the years before they produced 'parade mode' bikes.   In those years they recommended the electric cooling fans to prevent engine damage from heat, and they specifically mentioned it was for the rear cylinder especially.

I'm not facing any "facts" from you. I'm just ignoring your rote statements of the matter as fact without any support as much as you're ignoring my statements of experience. Thing if I'm not saying it isn't sometimes or even often true. From the start I've said it's not always or automatically true. So it takes only a few instances where it is not to disprove the universality of the generalization. It's much harder to prove the ultimate truth of an absolute.

And again you're referencing sitting and idling.... Which is not considered "normal" operation, even if that happens in fleet motor cop service.

And I'd love to know how the HD techs (I've worked with many since the 90's) knew the differences in front and rear head temps, especially since I'm pretty sure there was only one head temp sensor and little to know data logging going on especially in the early systems before parade mode.

[redrider90]

High maintenance. 

Extremely smart, fast, agile, women love them, more intelligent than humans
I've had 3 and am looking for one now.

[LowRyter]

RPMs

[Kev m]

That must be the "over 800cc streetbike" pie chart.

I believe it was usually reported as the over 650cc street bike segment, unless that's changed or unless that varies with who is reporting.

[Trogladyte]

You can't really compare the two.

For me the HD air cooled motors are just something of an anachronism. They look and sound pretty, and that has got them by, without having to actually compete with more modern engines. If that's your thing, then great - and I'd love an old one. But I would never spend my money on a new one - for me, it's just not a good enough motor. The power it produces is pretty poor for its capacity. And every HD I've ridden just feels like it runs out of puff as soon as it gets going.

The Guzzi is still a lump of some character, and delivers for those who like a motor with plenty of torque at moderate rpm. But it's also a practical powerplant for a real world motorcycle. I ride my Guzzi pretty much every day - rain or shine. It's not a toy - it's how I travel. It's a tool - and it does its job, with some style.