Breva 1100 flashers, potential failed dash?

[Doppelgaenger]

So I just went over 30,000 miles on the breva, and now I'm having what I can only assume are problems with the dash.

My 4-way flashers come on (on their own) somewhat reliably when starting the bike. This has been an ongoing problem with the bike since I got a lot of humidity into it during a summer shower that I wasn't able to predict. The bike was just sitting in my driveway and got rained on, but with B11s that just seems to be all it takes. The heated grip indicator is also constantly on on the dash, even though the bike has none.

The worst part is that once the flashers come on there is no way to turn them off. Pushing the button does nothing and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the flashers are not controlled by the switch itself but are a function of the dash, and the button is just a relay that tells the dash to turn them off or on. I hope I'm wrong on that... The only way to shut them off is to disconnect the battery, and while I can kill them that way, they will come on again on their own if I'm riding

Is there a way to fix this that anyone knows? Also, I was told by a source I no longer trust that replacement dashes came down drastically in value recently. Is this true?

thanks for the help y'all.

[tris]

I suspect that the switch is a simple push to make. So one push turns the flashers on and a second turns them off and the"relay" is in the dash circuitry/logic

I'd pull the little switch panel out and see if there is water bridging the switch contacts. Maybe a blast with compressed air and a couple of days in the airing cupboard will see it fixed

PS I think the wiring for the grips is in place - just not connected. Maybe that has water in it too

PPS Be careful if you pull the switch panel as the temperature sensor for the dash display is clipped on at one end

[Moto]

Yes, your hazard warning button is connected to pin 14 of the dash (see the wiring diagram here http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif).

I have done a lot of research on the moisture problems in the Griso's dash, which is a close cousin of the Breva's, sharing many components. Based on what I found out, I strongly suspect you have a chronic and progressive problem caused by moisture. Prospects look grim. The cost of a new dash is now above $800. (Search for part number 05760031 at af1racing.com.) I do, however, have advice short of buying a new one.

1. Since the problem is progressive and depends for its progress on electrical currents flowing through contaminated water droplets, I would immediately stop riding the bike and also disconnect the battery. Some current goes to the dash when the key is in the off position, presumably including to the hazard warning light circuit.

2. Then I recommend you remove the dash housing from the bike and disassemble it far enough to expose the printed circuit board, on one side (the bottom). You may well see the problem caused by the water, as on this dead Breva dash, where the hazard warning lights had switched themselves on and off even when the switch had been disconnected, before the final failure:



or the damage may be harder to see.

3. Then take your dash to an appropriate local cell phone or computer repair shop, as discussed in my recent post, here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84988.0.

4. A more expensive source of help is here: https://www.carmo.nl/, Carmo in the Netherlands, recommended by a user here: http://www.guzziriders.org/breva-1100-clocks-lcd-display_topic4376.html.

To understand what is likely going on, and how it could be fixed, I recommend you read my three posts on the Griso dash, which start here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84968.msg1340261#msg1340158. (There are internal links to the second and third parts.)

As for the fix, it may not be too late to save your dash by a bit of micro-surgery, followed up by moisture proofing, either the application of a conformal coating (by the phone repair shop; a bottle costs $10) or possibly by isolating the board from moisture. Again, see my earlier series of posts. On the other hand, it may just be too late if the corrosion looks like the picture I posted above. See your cell phone shop to get an opinion.

Good luck.

Moto

P.S. There is a description of disassembling the dead Breva dash pictured above, here: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/attachments/clocks1-doc.969. Don't go any further than exposing the back of the PCB before you take yours to the cell phone repair shop.

[tris]

Does everything else work properly on the dash - lights, clocks, etc?

[Doppelgaenger]

Yes, everything else looks fine. I should add that the dash isn't currently wet, it's just acting weirdly.

I guess I'll have to just bust it open... thanks for the help

[Bisbonian]

I've had a couple with wonky turn signals, although not the same problem you encountered.

The first one I sent off to Carmo and they did find water damage. They were able to fix the damage and then apply some waterproofing, I've had no trouble since. I don't remember when I sent this off, but it's been at least a few years.

The second one is my "spare" dash. I haven't had to use it for a while but when I pulled it out to loan it to another member I found the signals were working properly, I assume the dash dried out.

My opinion, get it fixed before the LCD becomes affected. I have no idea if that's really a thing in that the damage can spread, but once the LCD goes it has been difficult to get the dash fixed.

Today, I would certainly try the cell phone repair place that Moto suggests. That is, if I felt comfortable taking the dash apart to the necessary level myself. I have a third dash which is in many pieces from a guy who really didn't know what he was doing but thought he could help.

[tris]

If it were me and the rest of the dash was working OK I'd check the external stuff to the dash first

ie if you unplug the 4 way flasher switch do you still have a problem.

If the dash is FUBAR it'll stay FUBAR even if you check the easy stuff first.

I've bottled out of opening so far - but I haven't had a big issue either ..... yet

[Moto]

In my Griso dash instructions I said to remove the tachometer needle, but that isn't necessary for it or the Breva (and its three needles) if all you want to do is expose one side of the board.

Take a look at this demo for a better approach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k3p9nH8McE

Instead of poking holes in the dash with a spike of some kind (??) as in the video, I recommend using a suitable woodworking or plastic-cutting drill bit, like a brad point Forstner, to get to the two central screws behind the faceplate. Then once the screws are loosened with a screwdriver through the holes, you can pull the two halves of the PCB's enclosure apart while the dashboard needles remain in place.

Examine what you find, and take it to the cell phone shop. (You still would need to remove the other case half for a complete application of a conformal coating, but the repair shop should be comfortable doing that.)

Though I didn't have trouble with removing and replacing the needle, others have. So it is better to avoid it. (But don't forget your three needles will be vulnerable to damage while you are examining the other side of the board. Probably covering them back up with the clear instrument cover would be a good idea.)

Moto

[Doppelgaenger]

OK so I have the cluster off and I'm doing my reading before I dare to open up the dash, but I do have  a question regarding the application of the conformal coating. Form what I know, that the air pressure sensor on a breva is in the actual circuitboard. Does anyone know which one it is so that it doesn't get covered by the coating?

tris, although I've never opened up the cluster, the fact that the heated grip indicator comes on tells me that there is already water damage, and if the whole thing hasn't already failed, I can pretty much guarantee that it will in the future since I live in washington and there just isn't any way around the fact that the bike is going to get wet. Oh, and if only for the record, I forgot to mention that when it gets humid in there the high beam indicator will come on and go off pretty much at will

[Moto]

Form what I know, that the air pressure sensor on a breva is in the actual circuitboard. Does anyone know which one it is so that it doesn't get covered by the coating?

Yes, it's that larger gray item a little left of center in the photo I posted above. It's a rectangle with the four corners cut out, so I suppose it has 12 sides. That 12-sided top is a cap that you can pull off if you want, to observe the sensing membrane inside.

Moto

[Moto]

Oh, and if only for the record, I forgot to mention that when it gets humid in there the high beam indicator will come on and go off pretty much at will

The one who described the problems with the dead dash in the picture said its blue high beam LED was giving trouble, along with the hazard lights switching themselves on and off even with the switch disconnected. I'll bet you find corrosion damage right in the same area as in the picture, since your affected circuits are similar. That's one place water can collect in that dash.

[tris]

OK so I have the cluster off and I'm doing my reading before I dare to open up the dash, but I do have  a question regarding the application of the conformal coating. Form what I know, that the air pressure sensor on a breva is in the actual circuitboard. Does anyone know which one it is so that it doesn't get covered by the coating?

tris, although I've never opened up the cluster, the fact that the heated grip indicator comes on tells me that there is already water damage, and if the whole thing hasn't already failed, I can pretty much guarantee that it will in the future since I live in washington and there just isn't any way around the fact that the bike is going to get wet. Oh, and if only for the record, I forgot to mention that when it gets humid in there the high beam indicator will come on and go off pretty much at will

No problem DG and good luck with your surgery - Moto has provided some really good stuff there

My bike came to me on its second dash and only a slight tendency to mist up after a ride in the cold followed by a coffee stop

Because it was relatively minor and everything worked OK, I elected not to take the dash apart but seal the obvious gaps and to improve the ventilation where it should vent - time will tell whether I've been successful Phase 2 of ventilation will be pumped air 

Let us know how you get on

Tris

[Doppelgaenger]

Tris, I've actually done both the things you're describing in an attempt to keep the dash alive. The forced air does help dry them out immensely and I'll keep the arrangement to help dry it out so I can see the instruments after the fix is done, yet here I am.

For peace of mind I'd just bite the bullet and get it done if I were you, because when it actually fails on you you're still going to be pissed off at the bike and want to sell it when you have to actually face the failure.

I'm very relieved to know that this can be done locally because I don't want to miss 3 weeks of the riding season sending the dash off to Carmi which did know about, thanks for that Moto.

I think this is probably guaranteed to happen to all of Brevas eventually, unless they are kept in the desert where there isn't any humidity. Although I don't know who in their right mind would want to ride one of these in 100+ degrees. I'm pretty convinced that it's not just ambient moisture that gets in there, if you cover the gauge cluster with plastic bags if it gets rained on you get a lot less condensation. I think it gets in thru the housing somehow, I'm going to silicone seal it when I put it back together. I don't trust the gasket system anymore.

[TobyJug]

I had the same problem you described with my 2015 Norge (I posted about it here while ago).  I got the impression that the push button sends a pulse to the 'computer' to start the 4 way flashers and another to stop them.  It doesn't sound right but it seemed to behave like it.  I attempted to follow the wiring loom from the handlebar to the dash but it seemed to go under the fairing towards the battery (where the ECU is?).  As I was doing so I was checking for any loose connections.  The next time I went out for a ride the bloody flashers were coming on and off all day.  The next chance I got I intended to take it to the dealers for them to look at, since it's still under warranty, but it hasn't done it since. 

I'm sorry I'm not any use in helping you  ..  but I feel your pain.

Jug

[Doppelgaenger]

Yeah I noticed that the button doesn't have any on or off. But the starter is controlled in the same way, you tell the ECU you want to start the bike and it does it for you, that's why this bike has startus interruptus. Fortunately I've managed to avoid that particular problem.

[Doppelgaenger]

Does anyone have an image of the wires going into the main dashboard connector? The guy that is fixing my dash needs to know the wiring colors in order to bench test the dash and I'm not able to get a good enough image to show all the wires of him. Has anyone had it apart?

Also, I may have found a viable US alternative (local for WA residents) to Carmi in this guy that is helping me. His prices are very fair although I may pay more than the rest of you since I'm the guinea pig for him.

FYI Tris, whatever you might be thinking, just send off your dash to get a conformal coating applied to it, you don't want the kind of damage I had. I'll post a picture of it within the next day or two.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Moto seems to have nailed the problem, I repair a lot of circuit boards and what he shows id moisture for sure.
The microprocessor inputs are so sensitive a tiny leakage current is enough to trigger the inputs.
You should be able to purchase a can of Conformal spray from a good electronic store.

Moto, do you think the moisture is filling up the dash or just condensing on the board?
Conformal spray will help for sure but it would be better to cure the moisture problem.
I'm wondering if it could be avoided by adding a little heat to maintain the board above dewpoint say a 3 watt lamp or resistor to come on with the key.
Would adding a desiccant pack help?

[Moto]

Moto, do you think the moisture is filling up the dash or just condensing on the board?
Conformal spray will help for sure but it would be better to cure the moisture problem.
I'm wondering if it could be avoided by adding a little heat to maintain the board above dewpoint say a 3 watt lamp or resistor to come on with the key.
Would adding a desiccant pack help?

I'm not sure what you mean by filling up the dash, but I think condensation is very dangerous because it is a relatively small volume of water, which can pick up a higher concentration of contaminants (from the PCB) than a larger one in a given amount of time. The contaminants are what make the water conductive.

I think heat from a bulb might be a good idea. However, if the instrument is full of moisture-laden air at night condensation may still occur while the bike is parked.

A desiccant pack could help if it can be fitted inside the dash. In the Griso's case there is barely room, though one of us has done it. I'm not optimistic that this would be a long term solution, since the desiccant gets used up. Of course, then there would be the problem of opening up the dash again to replace it.

I've installed a new-design desiccating breather on my Griso, following a suggestion you made in a PM. I'll post on my experience with it after I've subjected the bike to more moisture. So far, it looks good.

Moto

[Doppelgaenger]

Here's the picture of my dash's damage. There is also apparently damage on the front of the circuitboard, which isn't surprising in the least.



I don't think that desiccant packets would help in any kind of climate where moisture is a potential problem. I used to use color-changing silica gel desiccant (turns purple when saturated) for an air compressor at an old job and it would last about a week when installed before it had to be baked in a regular oven to remove the moisture from it. The time it took to saturate again while just sitting out in the open in dry California climate was on the order of an hour so it had to be stored in an airtight container (while hot) lest it become immediately useless. So I have little confidence in that approach, not to mention having to open the dash every time to change it. If you can connect it to a remote desiccant holder that could work and is something I was planning on doing, but the problem made the bike unrideable before I could get around to it.

Can you show your desiccating breather design Moto?

I plumbed my dash with 1/8 inch silicone tubing into the rear vents in order to circulate air, but that doesn't work well enough to remove moisture unless you're heating the dash, and when I say heating, I mean hair dryer on full blast heating the whole housing above 90 degrees whilst circulating air. Even blocking off all the air vents with plugs in the plumbing tubes and applying silicone sealant around all the outside edges of the dash still allowed moisture into the dash if it got rained on directly.

[Moto]

Here's the picture of my dash's damage. There is also apparently damage on the front of the circuitboard, which isn't surprising in the least.

Hah! Just as I predicted -- similar symptoms, similar moisture damage! Science!!

My earlier posting on the left, your dash on the right:



This is very helpful, thanks.

I'll post my revised breather design soon. The original one is here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84968.msg1340261#msg1340261

Moto

[Doppelgaenger]

Moto, do you think that the conformal coating will eliminate the problem or just reduce it greatly?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'ts interesting that the damage occurred in roughly the same spot, what's the reason for that?
It was the concentration in one corner that made me wonder if that part of the board gets totally immersed.

Does anyone else have pictures, Norge, Griso, etc.

I usually try scrubbing the board with a soft wire brush to get rid of that sort of crud, it doesn't always work but does often enough. Conformal coating will withstand total immersion, I have seen industrial instruments with the case full of water still working happily but I wouldn't recommend it

I think the Moto desiccant bottle is the way to go, keep as much fresh moisture laden air out as possible and breath thru desiccant.

[jreagan]

I'ts interesting that the damage occurred in roughly the same spot, what's the reason for that?
It was the concentration in one corner that made me wonder if that part of the board gets totally immersed.

Is that the low spot when the bike is leaning on the side-stand?

[Moto]

Is that the low spot when the bike is leaning on the side-stand?

Yes. I believe moisture condenses from the air inside the dash and then runs down the board, collecting toward the bottom.

[Moto]

Can you show your desiccating breather design Moto?

I just posted the new design as a continuation of my original series of three, here:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84968.msg1354221#msg1354221

Regarding your question about whether a conformal coating will cure the problem completely, I don't know. Kiwi Roy just reported some promising observations. But the guy I spoke to at a phone repair shop seemed to think that having both kinds of protection (coating and desiccating breather) was better.

M.

EDIT: On reflection, I'd say conformal coating should cure the problem completely, IF it is applied correctly. But correct application seems to be difficult to achieve or prove.

[tris]

.... and that's the dilemma - The conformal coating treats the symptoms and not the cause

I'm quite prepared to accept that it will protect the board if properly applied, however the source of the moisture (condensation or leaks) will continue

Decisions decisions 

[Doppelgaenger]

The condensation is the source of the problem, however the conformal coating does seem to be a permanent cure.

As guzzi flaws go I'd much rather deal with this design flaw than something like rollerising an 8v 1200 or the hydro issue 

[tris]

....As guzzi flaws go I'd much rather deal with this design flaw than something like rollerising an 8v 1200 or the hydro issue 

You and me both DG!!

I consciously selected a 2 valver when I changed from the California!!

[Doppelgaenger]

Also, I'm going to just put this up here in case anyone ever needs it for reference. My repair guy asked me for this in order to bench test the dash and see if any components are actually damaged instead of just being corroded.

This is a map of the wiring harness wire colors as they plug into the dash, as seen looking at the pins on back of the dash. The black connector is the two left columns and the white connector is the two right ones.

[tris]

If you've not seen this is this any help to your sparky?

www.guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/1100/Breva1100_Didacticiel(GB).pdf    Page 35