Author Topic: Crankshaft seizure problems with V7 II'S  (Read 24982 times)

Offline redhawk47

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2017, 09:24:20 AM »
I've heard a few kids tell me they were taught to leave the bike in gear, so they could watch the mirrors and plan an escape if it looked like they were about to get rear ended.

This is what MSF was teaching when I took the beginner class in 2003.
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Offline v65tt

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2017, 09:24:59 AM »
hate to be the bearer of bad news

but the thrust bearings are the same for a mk1 v35 all the way though to a brand new v9 bobber/roamer and the nocky crank / binding then pulling the clutch issue as been there since the first small blocks

guzzi did update the v65/v75 thrust bearings with an oil drilling but nothing more was done.


I have a v65 engine here that will lock solid when hot as the trust bearings were such a bad fit , a v7 classic / breva twin throttle body engine with a bright blue crank due to thrust bearing tolerances and worst off a v7 stone engine that has a trashed crank due to trust bearing problems.
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Offline JeffOlson

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2017, 09:50:11 AM »
And here I was thinking of getting a V7 or V9... I will have to rethink that. Does this same problem exist with the 1400 engine?
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Offline v65tt

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2017, 09:52:38 AM »
And here I was thinking of getting a V7 or V9... I will have to rethink that. Does this same problem exist with the 1400 engine?


i would not worry... buy one and enjoy... love my small block rabble.... but if you buy a new one and the engine slows or knocks when you pull the clutch in then it needs a new engine..
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2017, 01:30:58 PM »
Ian, do you have any proof that the failures you are citing are the RESULT of clutch mal-adjustment or a deficient design in the crankcase?

We've got people that post around here with 100,000 km on relatively late-model B7 or V7 smallblocks.

They didn't get that mileage because there is a grenade-like failure waiting to happen in all smallblock crankshafts in the form of the thrust bearings.

Now obviously there appears to be a recent string of VERY early failures that suggest something more than just a weak spot in design, but that's not the same as scaring everyone into believing there's an inherent defect in all of them.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 03:40:24 PM by Kev m »
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2017, 02:20:46 PM »
I had been searching for a V7 until I had a family issue and I just bought a less expensive older
California Stone. Still interested In The V7 and I don't see any wholesale dumping of them going on.
Most of the owners on this forum and Advrider love theirs. I hope someone comes up with an explanation
Of the extent of this issue, the V7 is MGs top seller and it's got to be important to them

Offline v65tt

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2017, 02:22:19 PM »
I personally think its down to poor assembly and or tolerances at the factory....  This causes the failures..


If you have adjusted the clutch incorrectly and is causing the clutch release mechanism to bind you will soon shatter the rear needle bearing and melt the push rod..  If your trust bearings had failed due to clutch miss adjustment the dealer would have been replacing the clutch release mechanism too... The v7 box from the pictures blow was a write off as it had eaten needle bearing remains

These pictures are from a v7 Classic that had been ridden for about 15mins after having a new clutch plate fitted and the clutch incorrectly adjusted... The push rod had friction welded its self the the flywheel center.









My personal bug bear is the put less oil in your small block as you should not get oil in the air box... running with 1.5L of oil is not a good idea...Oil will pool in the base of the airbox as its a oil vapour condenser...

use good quality 10w60 in hot countries and good 10w50 in colder countries.


look at part number 5 in this V9 engine part list

https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/5722752/v-9-v-9-v9-roamer-emea-chassis-number-prefix-zgulh000-2016-v9-roamer-emea-chassis-number-prefix-zgulh000-all/drive-shaft

part number GU27066460

https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/GU27066460

nothing has changed for years..... crank thrust bearing goes back to v65 in the late 70's
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 02:34:10 PM by v65tt »
Iain

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Offline redhawk47

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2017, 02:33:44 PM »
Ian, do you have any proof that the failures you are citing are the RESULT of clutch mal-adjustment or something other than a deficient design in the crankcase?

We've got people that post around here with 100,000 km on relatively late-model B7 or V7 smallblocks.

They didn't get that mileage because there is a grenade-like failure waiting to happen in all smallblock crankshafts in the form of the thrust bearings.

Now obviously there appears to be a recent string of VERY early failures that suggest something more than just a weak spot in design, but that's not the same as scaring everyone into believing there's an inherent defect in all of them.

These very early failures are NOT a design defect; they are an assembly defect. The part pointed out in Reply #15 was left out in an unknown number of engine. If you have an engine that the part was left out of you will know it in the first 600 miles, and probably by 300 miles. The way you will know is that the clutch is grossly out of adjustment, probably to the point where there is not enough adjustment available at the lever. You will notice that the clutch is not fully disengaging when you pull in the lever. 

Fortunately Moto Guzzi is not only aware of the problem but is promptly providing new engines and installation under warranty. Two weeks from my dealer knowing about my bike's problem to being back on the road again.
Dan
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Offline v65tt

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2017, 02:36:05 PM »
These very early failures are NOT a design defect; they are an assembly defect. The part pointed out in Reply #15 was left out in an unknown number of engine. If you have an engine that the part was left out of you will know it in the first 600 miles, and probably by 300 miles. The way you will know is that the clutch is grossly out of adjustment, probably to the point where there is not enough adjustment available at the lever. You will notice that the clutch is not fully disengaging when you pull in the lever. 

Fortunately Moto Guzzi is not only aware of the problem but is promptly providing new engines and installation under warranty. Two weeks from my dealer knowing about my bike's problem to being back on the road again.

I agree completely.... luckily they are an easy engine to swap :-)

however its not a great design and has been a niggle since the first v50's

interesting reading :-

« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 02:40:24 PM by v65tt »
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2017, 03:47:45 PM »
Yeah Red I get the current early failure problem but Ian seemed to be suggesting something more sinister.

I'm trying to separate the concept that the cause of the early failures being some fault (missing or out of spec thrust washers) from the suggestion that the thrust washers are somehow an Achilles heel or bad design.

Ian keeps drawing some tenuous lines between them.

But the fact that they haven't been changed in decades doesn't point to them as a weakness unless they are consistently failing under normal use and circumstances and I'm not aware that they are, but was inquiring if someone else was.

Edit- that said the page Ian has posted from Guzziology suggests perhaps the over use of the clutch or a maladjusted clutch (that constantly preloads) the crank could potentially cause additional wear too the thrust bearings. At least that's how I'm reading it. So maybe that's the connection Ian is trying to draw.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 05:12:02 PM by Kev m »
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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2017, 04:08:20 PM »
The problem will show up before it is time for first service at 600 miles. By 300 miles my clutch was dragging and I adjusted the cable at the lever. Another 100 miles and it needed adjustment again - but there wasn't enough adjustment at the lever so I did it at the engine end. I thought it was new cable stretch. When I took it in for first service I mention this to the service manager. He said "Oh, there are a few things we need to check." He called the next day and said "I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that we drained the oil and there was a lot of metal in it. The good news is that you are getting a new engine, under warranty."

That is a comforting declaration.
I'm at about 550 miles, clutch feel is the same as new and it will go to the dealer for the 650 mile service on Tuesday with just over 700 miles on it.
I do hear minor clutch noise, idling in neutral, which goes away when I pull in the clutch.
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Online Kev m

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2017, 04:38:41 PM »


I do hear minor clutch noise, idling in neutral, which goes away when I pull in the clutch.

Yup, that's normal.
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Offline sib

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2017, 04:48:59 PM »
I agree completely.... luckily they are an easy engine to swap :-)

however its not a great design and has been a niggle since the first v50's

interesting reading :-


Interesting reading indeed from Guzziology.  FWIW, the thrust washer pictured on the Stein-Dinse web site does seem to have the oil hole.  It's asymmetrically positioned, and I haven't read anything (so far) stating which way the washers should be oriented, relative to their oil holes, when placed in their grooves in the crankcase, or whether it matters.  The engine service manual is extremely vague about these washers, and after reading the relevant passages several times, I'm not sure it even mentions them at all.


« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 04:59:37 PM by sib »
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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2017, 08:00:38 PM »
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Offline voncrump

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2017, 10:40:36 PM »
I have given my V7 stone some serious hard work. I even started a thread asking about how strong the engines are. The general consensus was that they are a pretty tough motor. Keep the clutch adjusted properly, keep the oil fresh, and go to it. I think it is significant that none of these problem engines have actually blown up. So some were assembled wrong, some were adjusted wrong. The rest are OK.
Cheers, voncrump.

 Edit, what I mean is that through all of these dramas the motors are not firing con rods out left right and centre or seizing rock solid. My deduction is that they are a fundamentally solid motor. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 12:15:02 AM by voncrump »
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Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2017, 01:34:13 AM »
The engine service manual is extremely vague about these washers, and after reading the relevant passages several times, I'm not sure it even mentions them at all.




They are not. I was searching them also.
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Offline Socalrob

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2017, 04:23:58 AM »
I agree completely.... luckily they are an easy engine to swap :-)

however its not a great design and has been a niggle since the first v50's

interesting reading :-



So I was hoping to purchase a new V7iii later this year, and figured that the missing thrust washers would be a thing of the past on the new models.  But here is info from 1989 (28 years ago) that this has been an ongoing issue for a very long time. 

Ian, are you thinking that these bikes are not reliable?  I remember having a Yamaha RD350 back in the day that a 10 cent o-ring needed to have a little square piece added to seal a key way on the crank or the motor would foul and frag, but that only took Yamaha a single year to solve.  28 years seems like a long time not to get it right.

That was a big appeal to me regarding Moto Guzzis, that the development did not move so fast that new problems were constantly arising, and that old problems would be solved.  Is that not the case?

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2017, 05:22:09 AM »

So I was hoping to purchase a new V7iii later this year, and figured that the missing thrust washers would be a thing of the past on the new models.  But here is info from 1989 (28 years ago) that this has been an ongoing issue for a very long time. 

<snip>

That was a big appeal to me regarding Moto Guzzis, that the development did not move so fast that new problems were constantly arising, and that old problems would be solved.  Is that not the case?

You see this is what I was worried about the way some people seem to be tying the two together.

Problems with design of the thrust washers in 1989 are not the same as a few fluke engines built without them or with bad ones in 2016.

The only possible tie I see here is that maybe riding your clutch or maladjusting it so it preloads it all the time might cause wear over time.

Neither is a reason not to get a smallblock.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 08:19:05 AM by Kev m »
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2017, 02:07:31 PM »
If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree.  But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail.  We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities.  They are failures of people to do their jobs.  All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so.  If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing. 

$0.02


Offline JeffOlson

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2017, 02:13:05 PM »
I am not too worried about it. At least, if there is a problem, it should show up very early in one's ownership, while the bike is still under warranty.

Presumably there are plenty of spare engines lying around, and Luigi likely has now received instruction in how to properly assemble these engines...
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Offline Socalrob

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2017, 12:10:53 AM »
If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree.  But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail.  We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities.  They are failures of people to do their jobs.  All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so.  If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing. 

$0.02

So I have not been poking around here long, but not sure there seem to be more problems with MG than say BMW or Ducati.


Offline rodekyll

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2017, 12:45:41 AM »
Irrelevant.  But the "Proud to be no sloppier than brand X" defense explains a lot.  There was a time when being no worse than the competition wasn't the position a company hoped to be in.   :embarrassed:

Offline sib

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2017, 05:59:21 AM »
So I have not been poking around here long, but not sure there seem to be more problems with MG than say BMW or Ducati.
Bingo!  My other transportation is a 2004 Prius with 165,000+ trouble-free miles on it.  There are Priuses around with three times that mileage.  They are among the most reliable cars ever built.  But you wouldn't know that if you visit the Prius forums, where there is a litany of horror stories, complaints about reliability, comparisons with other, supposedly more reliable and better built cars, etc.  It's the nature of these forums that they attract these attitudes and participants.  There are probably millions of satisfied Prius owners who haven't even heard of a Prius forum, just as there are probably thousands of Moto Guzzi owners who happily ride their bikes, blissfully unaware that this forum even exists.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2017, 07:05:40 AM »
If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree.  But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail.  We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities.  They are failures of people to do their jobs.  All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so.  If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing. 

$0.02

You hit the nail squarely on the head.

I agree.

.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2017, 07:35:42 AM »
If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree.  But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail.  We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities.  They are failures of people to do their jobs.  All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so.  If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing. 

$0.02


   I also agree w/RK but he forgot the clutch hub disaster of the 80's. For 10yrs almost every one went bad and they were not covered under warranty. It took 15Kmi before it started as the warranty program was 6mo or 6Kmi. I don't think anything has changed only the management.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2017, 07:44:20 AM »
Wow, starkly pessimistic viewpoints from a couple of guys with way more than the merely decade and a half I've been riding these things.

I can't say I fully disagree. I.E. that the company has had some stellar misses in my time.

But man these bikes make my heart sing.

I seem to have gotten a good one this time, but you guys are just confirming my plans to buy another Harley next time I add to the fleet and not play the Guzzi quality lottery.

 :sad:
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2017, 07:57:12 AM »
Wow, starkly pessimistic viewpoints from a couple of guys with way more than the merely decade and a half I've been riding these things.

I can't say I fully disagree. I.E. that the company has had some stellar misses in my time.

But man these bikes make my heart sing.

I seem to have gotten a good one this time, but you guys are just confirming my plans to buy another Harley next time I add to the fleet and not play the Guzzi quality lottery.

 :sad:

I agree with you too!

They do make your heart sing but the question is how much you are willing to put up with for that song.


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« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:58:39 AM by leafman60 »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2017, 08:03:28 AM »
When you work in the back and all you see is the bad stuff, it affects your view.
What gets me is they are trying to market the Smallblock as a reliable BigBlock.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2017, 08:19:38 AM »
When you work in the back and all you see is the bad stuff, it affects your view.
What gets me is they are trying to market the Smallblock as a reliable BigBlock.

Well, I know it's a small sample size (3 Guzzis since 2000), but my 1 smallblock has been so much more reliable than my 2 big blocks it's not funny. I mean it's seriously NOT FUNNY.

By about the same mileage both my big blocks had multiple parts failures/repairs. The Breva 1100 the worst of it with a clutch and 2 dashes that added up to something like 1/3 of the original purchase price. The Jackal was more nickel and diming but still it added up.

In contrast my smallblock got a voltage regulator prophylactically.

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Offline redhawk47

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2017, 09:18:52 AM »
At least, Moto Guzzi is stepping up to the plate on this clutch/thrust washer issue. I had a new engine in my V7II in two weeks time.

It took the BMW dealer, with factory help, four months to fix the stalling problem on my F800GS. In the mean time I bought a Stelvio. I have definitely switched brand loyalty.
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