Possibly Experiencing Startus Interruptus (SI) - 2007 Norge (2V)

[DCWCALI]

This happens to be a good news/bad news story as it is my understanding it was only a matter of time before it happened to me.  BAD:  After stopping by my friendly neighborhood motorcycle shop to pay for work on the ZRX, hoped back on the Norge only to find she won't start.  Gauges sweep as usual, but no noise from under the tank (no clicking).  Hhhmm Do everything that has/was suggested in the reading, lift side stand, pull in clutch, change gear place back in neutral and still same result.  Startus Interruptus!  GOOD:  My friendly neighborhood m/c shop (Mike-Cycle Service, Marysville, CA) back in the day used to work on M/G.  I swear this guy wears a cape.   

So in the mortal words of wisdom "please check me, before I wreak me."  I have tried to do my research on this subject and have found two posts by Kev m, dated 20 Feb 11 and 12 Nov 15 and another post from dubtac dated 28 Feb 16 (thank you by the way).  Are these the definitive post on SI and is there a wiring diagram out there that can assist?  Lastly, is anyone have access or know where to purchase the MPH plug and play kit?  I thank you for your time and patience...

[guzzisteve]

http://mphcycles.com/

[DCWCALI]

Thanks GuzziSteve and Nick.  I sent a message to MPH.  That's one issue, anyone have the wiring diagram?   

[Wayne Orwig]

So in the mortal words of wisdom "please check me, before I wreak me."  I have tried to do my research on this subject and have found two posts by Kev m, dated 20 Feb 11 and 12 Nov 15 and another post from dubtac dated 28 Feb 16 (thank you by the way).  Are these the definitive post on SI and is there a wiring diagram out there that can assist?  Lastly, is anyone have access or know where to purchase the MPH plug and play kit?  I thank you for your time and patience...

If you are NOT getting the FAINT relay click under the seat, it is NOT startus interuptus. Startus Interuptus is when the relay under the seat makes a faint click, but does not get enough current to the solenoid to make the LOUD clunk and the starter.

If that small relay is not clicking, you likely have a problem with a safety interlock, kill switch, etc.

If the small relay is making the faint click, but no loud clunk at the starter, then the starter wire has come off, or the starter solenoid is sticking, or it is startus interuptus and you need to improve the wiring.

[Kev m]

But it's easy to miss that faint click.

You gotta pull the seat off, and listen/feel for it.

[Thunderbutt]

I had the same problem on my '08 Norge only it was eating fuses even with the MPH Plug & Play.  I ended up replacing the starter relay and just to be safe, replaced the yellow wire from the starter relay to the starter solenoid with a heavier gauge wire.  Have not had a problem since.  While replacing the yellow wire from the relay to solenoid I noticed it appeared as the wire had been pinched at some point possibly causing the problem.

Also, while on our trip from Florida to Nova Scotia Canada my friends '09 Norge suffered the same symptoms as yours.  I replaced his relay with a new spare I had brought along and replaced his relay to solenoid wire with heavier gauge wire and also the wire wire from the battery(+) to the relay he has not had a problem since. 

The common denominator here is the relay and too thin wire from the relay to the solenoid.  If you cant find a MPH Plug and Play, I would just replace both wires.  And use a fused wire from the battery (+) to the relay, readily available at any auto parts store.  Easy repairs....and cheap!!!!!

Hope this helps
Jerry 

[DCWCALI]

Well, just finished talking to Mike at MPH and the by-pass will be in the mail tomorrow.  So either way it shall get done. 

Mike mentioned to let everyone know on here...he's still around making stuff.  He had just finished making three of the by-passes and had them sold before noon.  Always nice when you can talk to people on the phone, if not in person.   So thanks for the tip...

[guzziks]

I did not get SI until last year, about 30k on bike but it was never in much rain and kept indoors the rest of the time.  At first the battery terminals were a little corroded which caused some voltage drop and the the battery was getting weaker.  Put in new battery but the 15 amp fuse kept blowing.  Took the starter off and checked out the solenoid , it was clean and operating just fine.   So ordered some relays, which were really inexpensive for some reason and they were the stock manufacturer not some cheapos.  Installed them and have not had a problem since.

The bike is at the dealer for some work right now, and I brought this problem up with the service manager.  He contacted the guzzi tech guy and they know of the problem and he said the relay is often part of the problem.  I expect the problem will occur again as other connections will become more resistive in time and the ignition switch contacts will also deteriorate.

I may get a wiring diagram fix of some sort from the dealer, big maybe.  I said I would do the work. 

[twowings]

You can purchase a downloadable .pdf service manual @ af1racing.com

[ITSec]

I may get a wiring diagram fix of some sort from the dealer, big maybe.  I said I would do the work.

The wiring diagram is available from the usual sources - get the one for an ABS bike, as it differs slightly. The service manual is also easily found.

Many discussions have provided specific wiring information about startus interruptus and related wiring issues, such as the starter grounding and other matters.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Blowing 15 Amp fuses eh?
If I told you there's up to 40 Amps flowing thru the ignition switch and relay for a split second would you be surprised?
All that current must pass through a contact that wasn't designed to take it, the key operated switch.
Startus Interuptus is when the contact finally throws in the towel.

Somewhere in between a new contact and throwing in the towel is blowing fuses, Not enough current to pull in but too much for the fuse.

The fix by-passes the switch contact enabling the starter solenoid to draw more current but for a shorter time. I experimented and found correcting the wiring dropped the high current pulse to half the time, from 40 mS to 20 mS

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif

Mike at MPH is performing a valuable service, providing a fix for guys who don't want to mess with the wiring, more power to him.
Others have figured out there own fix by correcting what Guzzi screwed up.

[Huzo]

Is it as simple as running a fused wire straight from the battery into the yellow wire socket in the plug? I hope so, 'cos that's what I did a year ago !

[Kiwi_Roy]

Is it as simple as running a fused wire straight from the battery into the yellow wire socket in the plug? I hope so, 'cos that's what I did a year ago !

Just that simple
Your starter now engages faster than the day it left the factory.

[Zoom Zoom]

With a couple basic skills, it is quite easy to make your own. Don't get me wrong, the PNP option is great. I bought one myself with plans to install it on my Stelvio until I discovered the plugs I needed to connect to were not under the seat.

So, a few feet of wire, a relay from the parts store, an in line fuse, and some spade ends both male and female. Oh and solder and soldering gun.

I made some wires that routed down from the battery and up from the starter trigger wire. (Small wire on the  solenoid.) I soldered a male end onto the wire leading back up from the starter and used that to trigger the new relay, which I found a suitable mounting location for. The other side of the trigger for the relay is the ground leading back to the battery negative. New hot wire with fuse installed in line down to business side of new relay, and the other side of that from the relay to the solenoid where I removed the original wire. Everything is soldered and insulated. Now the original wire does nothing but trigger the relay to energize the starter. Nothing need be cut, and it could be returned to stock in seconds.

The bike doesn't know or care that I have added an additional relay into the circuit. (I mention this because my Stelvio, and previously the Norge I had, had that start sequence where the ECU will crank the starter for a few seconds even if you're not holding the button.)

Anyway, I bring this up since this came up again. Soldering up the spade ends probably took longer that the rest of the install. Very inexpensive and easy to do for those who may not have access to the MPH solution or simply want to do their own.

I hope this may help someone out.

John Henry

[Thunderbutt]

My bike only had 10,000 miles on it when I started experiencing problems.  At Wayne and Kiwi-Roys advice I cleaned all the terminals and still had the problems.  I even went up to a 25 amp fuse and still had the problem even with the MPH unit in place.
At that point I decided to replace the the relay and wires.  The original relay was an "LI-5" and the replacement is stamped "Mitsub" and cost less than $7.00  purchased thru one of our site sponsors.  I found several used LI-5 relays listed on flea-bay for anywhere between $14.00-$27.00!!!! While waiting for the new relay I removed, and inspected the terminals and internals of the starter and solenoid which all looked spotless.

As for the wire diagram, I just used the excellent photos in previous postings on this forum by Kev and others showing where the relay and wires are located.  When I replaced the wire from the relay plug to the solenoid I used a small pin to help "pop" the yellow connector out of the group plug.  It was at that point I discovered the yellow wire looked like it had been pinched at some point.  With wires so thin it would only take one or two broken strands inside to reduce the current flow considerably and add to the resistance.  Since the repairs I have not had a problem since, rain or shine.

I cant thank the members enough, Kev, Wayne, Kiwi and all for their help and guidance.

[Huzo]

Just that simple
Your starter now engages faster than the day it left the factory.

Thanks Kiwi, if you say so I'm convinced. Had one dose in 2016, right in bloody front of the Collosseum of all places ! Seemed to me like lots of solutions were being offered that were complicating for complication's sake so I thought I was missing something...

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks Kiwi, if you say so I'm convinced. Had one dose in 2016, right in bloody front of the Collosseum of all places ! Seemed to me like lots of solutions were being offered that were complicating for complication's sake so I thought I was missing something...

Actually, the original wiring is over complicated. Too much resistance. You want to simplify it with a more direct path.

[DCWCALI]

Thanks everyone for the input.  Over the weekend Mike called to tell me after the bike cooled down it started and ran fine.  So now I am totally confused...I have purchased the MPH kit and will  installed it.  Just makes sense!  But, is there a heat sensor that will prevent the bike from starting (turning over) in an over heating situation? 

[Kev m]

Thanks everyone for the input.  Over the weekend Mike called to tell me after the bike cooled down it started and ran fine.  So now I am totally confused...I have purchased the MPH kit and will  installed it.  Just makes sense!  But, is there a heat sensor that will prevent the bike from starting (turning over) in an over heating situation?

No, but resistance in electrical circuits changes with heat (and/or load), so a problem may show up hot but not cold.

[DCWCALI]

Then we are probably on the right track....Thanks Kev!

[guzziks]

the schematic link that is in kiwi roy's post is incorrect.  It is a preliminary, the latest one is dated sept 2008.  It should be available on the same site.  The later one includes the abs portion and the wiring overall is quite different.

[barry.b]

Over the weekend Mike called to tell me after the bike cooled down it started and ran fine.  So now I am totally confused...I have purchased the MPH kit and will  installed it.  Just makes sense!  But, is there a heat sensor that will prevent the bike from starting (turning over) in an over heating situation?

sounds exactly like my 2006 Norge (I've only owned for a year). in 42C degree heat this happened at every fuel stop.

Will be trying the wiring fix, thinking that it's aged wiring (17 years after manufacture) with increased resistance with a bad initial design.

Will report back if successful.

[old head]

I went from running new heavier wires to starter and new relay, to new battery, running more direct wiring, to having new solenoid and starter cleaned before the SI finally disappeared.
Each step improved the crank problem  a little.

Don't use a lithium battery if you live in a cooler climate.  I went back to AGM, and haven't had any issues to since.  Lithium is much smaller, lighter and seemed to crank better.  However, the battery refused to crank below 60.  Now it could have been a combination of the wiring and weak starter/solenoid.

but I won't go bake to lithium, just not worth the chance it won't crank when its cold.

Old Head

[pehayes]

There is a Breva 11 nearly identical thread running parallel to this at the same time.  Go read three pages at:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=117948.0

I eventually gave up on this whole circuitous wire path and multiple connections rats nest.  I've just installed a quite small and simple momentary push button switch.  18ga wires.  Weak battery.  7.5amp inline fuse.  Cranks and starts instantly.  The solenoid load isn't that strong and we're only bursting for a few seconds.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont A

[Steffi Strackbein]

Hi Everyone, so a couple of weeks ago i took my 07 Norge out of Winter Sleep and installed the battery which I usually remove and store in a warm place. The bike started right up. Went for a drive, stopped in front of my garage turned it off and that was that. Now had a no start issue a few years back and fixed it by replacing 15 amp fuse D.
This time all fuses seemed ok. I then made sure the starter relay is clicking which it did. I went ahead and ordered a new one anyways and replace the old one. Still the same issue. Bike goes thru all the regular light show. After reading about the startus Interruptus issue I went ahead and built my wire with fuse in between, Removed yellow pin from relay and ran my wire from the positive of battery directly to relay. I proceeded by turning key, all looked fine, I then hit the starter button. There was a clunk at the starter and smoke tendrils rising form the starter area. Then everything went black all lights and and displays. After about maybe 5 seconds it rebooted by itself. I went ahead and checked the fuses, only the ones accessible under the seat. Fuse D was blown, I replaced it. Now when I turn the key everything seems normal, but it does not start, the relay does not not make a clicking noise. I swapped the relay out so I don't think that it. I think its three possible issues, the starter solenoid burned out I fried the ECU or the wire running from the relay to the starter burned out. Any advise or other suggestions? I hate to trailor the bike to the next Guzzi service center 250 miles away.

[guzzisteve]

Do easy stuff 1st, check yellow wire melt etc THEN pull starter & inspect, Bendix may be stuck. Check wire to relay.

To see if Batt is toast or check starter connect wire from Batt strait to spade on solenoid it will crank or expode, short or whatever

Good Luck

[Mike Craven]

But re-check your battery.  Another start solenoid attempt much less closing into a fault might take the battery voltage down.  You seem to know enough that the terminals are good/clean.  What does the battery voltage do while you hit the starter?  The relay click may close the contact and the solenoid coil load will drop the battery voltage (use capacity).  What does it read while you do?

[pehayes]

What start logic does your bike have?  When  you press the starter button, do you have to hold it to continue cranking?  Or does it 'auto-start' and keep cranking even though you have released the button?  If the latter, then the starter is controlled by the ECU.  Any dip in voltage and the ECU stops cranking the bike.    The only reliable solution is a bypass starter button.  I referenced an alternate thread up above.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[brider]

Is it as simple as running a fused wire straight from the battery into the yellow wire socket in the plug? I hope so, 'cos that's what I did a year ago !

This is what I did on my '07 Norge about 4 mo ago. Very simple.

[Steffi Strackbein]

Hi sorry for the late reply. First let me repeat, I do not have a click on the relay.
I checked the battery to see if the voltage drops when hitting the starter button, no reaction on the reading. Removed starter and bench tested, it works.
Checked continuity from relay to starter is fine. Will replace with heavier gauge wire. Going to re install starter and short start to see if the bike turns over.
If it does I need to back track wiring from relay to starter switch. Probably need to remove tank for this. Do I also need to remove the upper plastic in order to remove the tank?
I did check and cleaned all accessible fuses and contacts. Also, I don't know anything about the starter logic. How could this influence this issue?
I appreciate everyone's help and advice.