Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????

[Huzo]

Actually I've been considering putting carbs on the Jackal , a nice set of diaphragm Bings . Gets rid of the fuel pump , and simplifies things . My bike , I can do what I want with it , right ?

 Dusty

Well yes Dusty, you can do whatever you want with it as you say.
You can throw it on the fire if you want to, but that does not make it a good idea or a workable proposition.

[oldbike54]

Well yes Dusty, you can do whatever you want with it as you say.
You can throw it on the fire if you want to, but that does not make it a good idea or a workable proposition.

 Or put wire wheels on it , or turn it into a trike , or paint it some non-stock color , or ... well , you get the picture .

 Dusty

[Ozzydog]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard..

Well thanks for your helpful, informative, erudite, witty and kind comment Beetle. You must be so proud to publish comments like that.
Just out of interest how would you put a full level sender in an SP 1000 tank without cutting it, or drilling it , or modifying it from stock? Just wondering.
Andy
 

[Ozzydog]

Picture attached so wise ones can point to where the fuel sender light could go. Dusty? KevM? and other heroic posters care to flame away
Andy



upload images fast

[Huzo]

Or put wire wheels on it , or turn it into a trike , or paint it some non-stock color , or ... well , you get the picture .

 Dusty

That is a very good point Dusty and I totally accept it, (albeit with a slightly red face).
But.
I never questioned his right to do what he wants, but if you post something here, you can bet your flat tappets it'll need to stand some scrutiny, (positive or otherwise)
Ok.
I'm ready...

[Ozzydog]

Ouch!   

^^^    ^^^
Working on gathering this very data.

Guzzi Gal, it would be ouch if it was a sensible comment from a reasonable person, I learnt when working with intellectually disabled people to not take their utterings too seriously. Its always easy to chop up someone with a keyboard.

Andy

[Huzo]

Guzzi Gal, it would be ouch if it was a sensible comment from a reasonable person, I learnt when working with intellectually disabled people to not take their utterings too seriously. Its always easy to chop up someone with a keyboard.

Andy

Ouch !

[oldbike54]

 Ozzy , before this gets out of control , 'twas me defending you . Maybe we should all take a deep breath and back off just a bit . Thanks .

 Dusty

[Ozzydog]

I agree Dusty. I'm just b use building the bike of my dreams, what could be stupid about that.
A

[beetle]

Guzzi Gal, it would be ouch if it was a sensible comment from a reasonable person, I learnt when working with intellectually disabled people to not take their utterings too seriously. Its always easy to chop up someone with a keyboard.

  

It's still the stupidest thing I've ever heard!

[pete roper]

When I changed over from carbed bikes to FI I never even gave 'loosing' reserve a thought and in the twelve years and six fuel injected motorbikes since I've not run out of fuel once! Even my Grisos with their pissy little 16 litre tanks have never left me stranded. A little mental arithmetic makes the whole need for reserve a non issue.

I can understand why the OP would want to work out a system for fitting a different tank to his FI bike for cosmetic reasons but using the original spigots on a T/T3 or whatever is really making a rod for your own back. Surely far simpler would be to simply cut out the original tap mounts and weld in some fittings that would fit the standard delivery and return hoses and an extra one for the fuel light sender?

It wouldn't be exactly a huge job and there must be bashed up old tanks out there that could be bought for pennies that could be canibalised for fittings.

Then there is the actual size of the pipes in the older style petrol taps. The main delivery tube internal to the tank on the older taps is tiny! Even the older 850's struggled to flow enough through one tap to keep running if ridden energetically! What are the chances that one little pipe is going to deliver sufficient fuel to maintain full pressure in the rail after the pump? The whole point is that you have an over capacity pump and a return line to the tank to maintain a constant pressure in the fuel rail. If that flow is restricted then the whole system goes to hell in a handbasket really quick!

Pete

[beetle]

To give a  :1: to what Kev says is drawing a bit of a long bow, he's not on his own in this regard but he does say a fair bit..
He also thinks that fuel level alters when a bike leans over while riding...
So, Ummm.

Er, no. That's not what he meant. I think you know that.

[oldbike54]

  

It's still the stupidest thing I've ever heard!

 Likely not , or you haven't been paying attention here 

 Dusty

[beetle]

Actually I've been considering putting carbs on the Jackal , a nice set of diaphragm Bings . Gets rid of the fuel pump , and simplifies things . My bike , I can do what I want with it , right ?

Yep. And if I think it's stupid I will say so. I will also laugh and point!

 

[oldbike54]

Yep. And if I think it's stupid I will say so. I will also laugh and point!

 

 Tough crowd 

 Dusty

[beetle]

Yes Kev.
I've heard it said before that the LEVEL of the fuel where the float takes it's reading alters when leaning over as in your example of continuously turning left on a circular track.
Suffice to say that the surface of the fuel mass will not alter in relation to the inside of the tank as a result of banking over.
Could you read your response again and clean up the wording if you think it's necessary ?
ie "volume remaining changed" ?

I knew what he meant.

[beetle]

Or put wire wheels on it , or turn it into a trike , or paint it some non-stock color , or ... well , you get the picture .

 Dusty

These are reasonable aesthetic changes. Changing things mechanically for no valid reason that a sensible person would not do, isn't.

[beetle]

Well thanks for your helpful, informative, erudite, witty and kind comment Beetle. You must be so proud to publish comments like that.
Just out of interest how would you put a full level sender in an SP 1000 tank without cutting it, or drilling it , or modifying it from stock? Just wondering.
Andy

I wouldn't. Understand the fuel consumption, use something like, I don't know, mathematics?

[Huzo]

I agree Dusty. I'm just b use building the bike of my dreams, what could be stupid about that.
A

Most reasonable and commonsense comment so far...

[beetle]

Likely not , or you haven't been paying attention here 

 Dusty

You are correct, as usual. I take it back. It's not the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's the second most stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Running the engine rich to cool it is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[Huzo]

I knew what he meant.

He could scratch two miss spelled words on the shithouse seat and you would be able to fill the gaps Beetle no worries about that !
But there are those out here that rely on properly phrased words and sound engineering principles to enhance our understanding of stuff.
Not that he's the worst by a bloody long shot either !

[pete roper]

Picture attached so wise ones can point to where the fuel sender light could go. Dusty? KevM? and other heroic posters care to flame away
Andy



upload images fast

What's wrong with something like the same rough location as on the original tank? Or, even better, a Convert tank that already has the spigot for a light switch?

In fact that might very easily be the solution to your problem! Buy a used Convert tank and just swap the hose fittings to suit delivery and return and whack the light sender into the third 'ole! (Which from memory is at the front on the right??)

Alternatively, simply buy another T3/SP tank and weld in the appropriate spigot for the sender. They are hardly rare!

Pete

[oldbike54]

These are reasonable aesthetic changes. Changing things mechanically for no valid reason that a sensible person would not do, isn't.

 So going to all of the trouble to put wire wheels on a motorbike that has perfectly good cast wheels on it already is any more sensible than wanting to change a gas tank ? By that reasoning the world would not have Rodekyll's amazing Guzzi powered trike with a Convert transmission , or that beast you , Pete , and your other friend just built , which is completely spectacular . Everyone has a vision or an idea of what works for them , good grief , have you seen that old faded Jackal a certain mod rides with saddlebags that look like Samsonite suitcases ? 

 Dusty

[Tusayan]

Running the engine rich to cool it is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I'd guess you've never flown a tightly cowled high speed aircraft on climb-out.  In that application its done so that once the plane speeds up it can go faster with less cooling drag. 

I've read things in this thread that to me fall into category of technically weak, although probably not sheer stupidity.  Not understanding that the fuel in a tank doesn't move as a result of the bike being leaned over is one, not understanding the frequency response issues related to fuel measurement and management is also in that category. 

[Ozzydog]

When I changed over from carbed bikes to FI I never even gave 'loosing' reserve a thought and in the twelve years and six fuel injected motorbikes since I've not run out of fuel once! Even my Grisos with their pissy little 16 litre tanks have never left me stranded. A little mental arithmetic makes the whole need for reserve a non issue.

I can understand why the OP would want to work out a system for fitting a different tank to his FI bike for cosmetic reasons but using the original spigots on a T/T3 or whatever is really making a rod for your own back. Surely far simpler would be to simply cut out the original tap mounts and weld in some fittings that would fit the standard delivery and return hoses and an extra one for the fuel light sender?

It wouldn't be exactly a huge job and there must be bashed up old tanks out there that could be bought for pennies that could be canibalised for fittings.

Then there is the actual size of the pipes in the older style petrol taps. The main delivery tube internal to the tank on the older taps is tiny! Even the older 850's struggled to flow enough through one tap to keep running if ridden energetically! What are the chances that one little pipe is going to deliver sufficient fuel to maintain full pressure in the rail after the pump? The whole point is that you have an over capacity pump and a return line to the tank to maintain a constant pressure in the fuel rail. If that flow is restricted then the whole system goes to hell in a handbasket really quick!

Pete

But Pete, using fairly rudimentary mathematics (take note Beetle I am familiar with Mathematics) , I'm thinking say a tap flows 9lts a minute right or something like that, how many times has your bike consumed 9lts a minute? Therefore surely the flow rate ought not be a big issue, it must be able to flow more that the engine consumes? Am I so wrong on this?
As for the second tank option, I have a small pride in that my conversion from Jackal to L'unico has not permanently affected anything. L'unico can go back to a Jackal in an afternoon and My SP parts are still stock SP parts. Win win as far as Im concerned. Also folk might remember its a game. its about fun, it doesn't matter if I try it and it fails, its all about fun. Anyone can have opinions, Im trying it out!

Andy

[Guzzi Gal]

It’s about fun, it doesn't matter if I try it and it fails, its all about fun.

:1:

[pete roper]

But wire wheels are an aesthetic thing Dusty, there are certainly few if any advantages to them on a modern road bike, hell, I've got them on my Griso simply because I like them, they're no lighter than the alloys and are a lot more leak prone but that's what I like, looks wise! 

Wanting an actual *Switchable* reserve seems like a complete redundancy on a modern bike. I'm sure it's doable but not easily and not with a *Conventional* tap arrangement.

If I were to do it I'd probably look at using a solenoid activated two way switch. Dual inlets, single outlet. Then you could have two tank outlets, one in the depths of the rusty bit in the bottom of the tank for the 'Reserve' and one with a raised pipe up into the tank for 'Normal' delivery. Then have a button or toggle switch on the bars somewhere to swap between the feeds. You'd also still need a third spigot for the return.

It still wouldn't be a good system as it would rely on running the pump dry which isn't a good idea but it would be doable. What it would also be is unnecessary and complicated, not to mention adding weight and more failure points!

Long and the short of it is you want to go down this rabbit hole there is no *easy* solution.

Pete

[Orange Guzzi]

When I changed over from carbed bikes to FI I never even gave 'loosing' reserve a thought and in the twelve years and six fuel injected motorbikes since I've not run out of fuel once! Even my Grisos with their pissy little 16 litre tanks have never left me stranded. A little mental arithmetic makes the whole need for reserve a non issue.

I can understand why the OP would want to work out a system for fitting a different tank to his FI bike for cosmetic reasons but using the original spigots on a T/T3 or whatever is really making a rod for your own back. Surely far simpler would be to simply cut out the original tap mounts and weld in some fittings that would fit the standard delivery and return hoses and an extra one for the fuel light sender?

It wouldn't be exactly a huge job and there must be bashed up old tanks out there that could be bought for pennies that could be canibalised for fittings.

Then there is the actual size of the pipes in the older style petrol taps. The main delivery tube internal to the tank on the older taps is tiny! Even the older 850's struggled to flow enough through one tap to keep running if ridden energetically! What are the chances that one little pipe is going to deliver sufficient fuel to maintain full pressure in the rail after the pump? The whole point is that you have an over capacity pump and a return line to the tank to maintain a constant pressure in the fuel rail. If that flow is restricted then the whole system goes to hell in a handbasket really quick!

Pete

See my comment above.  I replace my f.i. tank with a Lemans 3 tank.  The double petcock outlets had the same  threads as the stock f.i. tank. I  put the original f.i. petcock on the left side and the fuel pressure regulator on the right.  I have seen pictures of the set up in reverse.   I made up a threaded weld nipple out of a hydraulic hose fitting and welded onto the tank before drilling a hole.  After welding the threaded nipple on, I drilled through the tank.  I made up a nut  fitting with female threads that match the nipple threads out of a female hydraulic hose fitting with matching threads.  Slid the stock f.i. fuel level sending unit in, fed the wires through nut, tightened the nut up.  No leaks.  Reads full brightness with a little over 1 u.s. gallon left in the tank. 

I have a 1986 Yamaha FJ1200.  No petcock.  A vacuum valve opens and feeds the carbs.  I does not work well.  If the bike sits for a few days and the carbs evaporated the fuel out of the bowls, it takes several minutes of cranking to get the bowls filled back up.  I made up a bypass vacuum hose system with check valves and a "T".  I ran one end up of a hose from the "T' up by the handle bars.  I can give it a suck with my mouth causing the fuel valve to remain in a constant vacuum with out cranking.  This allows the bowls to prime before cranking.  After a ride, I pull the branched hose off with one of the one check valves, releasing the fuel valve vacuum.  Works great. 

The FJ has an electronic reserve.  It will not function until the fuel level sensor drops and creates a ground for the fuel reserve electrical system to open the reserve side of the fuel valve. After the ground is achieved a switch can be turned on and the fuel valve will open on the reserve side.  It uses an inline resistor to keep high voltage out of the fuel delivery system.  There is a fuel level gauge and a low fuel warning light.  It's a Yamaha.  Lots of wires. 

[Huzo]

These are reasonable aesthetic changes. Changing things mechanically for no valid reason that a sensible person would not do, isn't.

Here's a comment that's only just occurred to me Beetle.
If anyone thinks I'm throwing out a bait, don't read on, I'm not and I'm not trolling, ( I hope !)

Ozzy asked a question to which he genuinely needed help, (not on his own there)..
He may very well be a nuclear physicist or Nuero Surgeon whereby his stupidity or otherwise us not under question, he just happens to be in a sphere where his knowledge needs supplementation.
Now (at last), here's my point.
Pete and yourself combined years of skill and experience to somehow shoe horn the guts of a 1400 into your Griso, a feat WAY above the reach of anyone I know other than yourselves, but if the thing let go in a shower of sparks and shit @ 8,000 revs leaving you (possibly) injured, many $$$$ the poorer and Griso less, all the vultures who never had the guts or desire to get off their arses, could have laughed, pointed and said...
"That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen attempted" and "why the hell did you pair even bother"...
And while you're shovelling the remaining bits of Mandello scrap alloy into the ute, you'd be bound to see their point.
But while what you blokes managed to achieve is stellar from my point of view, it is fundamentally driven by the same desire to immerse ourselves in this culture and apply whatever "skills" life has handed us over the years.
Like it or not, what comes out of your's and Pete's mouths is highly valued in the main by most of us and it demeans your "status" a bit to label someone's opinions as "stupid".
May be you could just help the bloke.

[pete roper]

But Pete, using fairly rudimentary mathematics (take note Beetle I am familiar with Mathematics) , I'm thinking say a tap flows 9lts a minute right or something like that, how many times has your bike consumed 9lts a minute? Therefore surely the flow rate ought not be a big issue, it must be able to flow more that the engine consumes? Am I so wrong on this?
As for the second tank option, I have a small pride in that my conversion from Jackal to L'unico has not permanently affected anything. L'unico can go back to a Jackal in an afternoon and My SP parts are still stock SP parts. Win win as far as Im concerned. Also folk might remember its a game. its about fun, it doesn't matter if I try it and it fails, its all about fun. Anyone can have opinions, Im trying it out!

So why not buy a third tank to modify? I've got a very nice SP tank with an 'Aircraft' type filler already fitted that is surplus to my requirements. It's actually got great paint on it which would probably be sacrificial but since it's my 'Trademark' green most people would want to change it anyway.

Pete