Old style fuel tap in injected bikes ??? How the????

[Orange Guzzi]

Here's a comment that's only just occurred to me Beetle.
If anyone thinks I'm throwing out a bait, don't read on, I' not and I'm not trolling, ( I hope !)

Ozzy asked a question to which he genuinely needed help, (not on his own there)..
He may very well be a nuclear physicist or Nuero Surgeon whereby his stupidity or otherwise us not under question, he just happens to be in a sphere where his knowledge needs supplementation.
Now (at last), here's my point.
Pete and yourself combined years of skill and experience to somehow shoe horn the guts of a 1400 into your Griso, a feat WAY above the reach of anyone I know other than yourselves, but if the thing let go in a shower of sparks and shit @ 8,000 revs leaving you (possibly) injured, many $$$$ the poorer and Griso less, all the vultures who never gad the guts or desire to get off their arses, could have laughed, pointed and said...
"That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen attempted" and "why the hell did you pair even bother"...
And while you're shovelling the remaining bits of Mandello scrap alloy into the ute, you'd be bound to see their point.
But while what you blokes managed to achieve is stellar from my point of view, it is fundamentally driven by the same desire to immerse ourselves in this culture and apply whatever "skills" life has handed us over the years.
Like it or not, what comes out of your's and Pete's mouths is highly valued in the main by most of us and it demeans your "status" a bit to label someone's opinions as "stupid".
May be you could just help the bloke.

Hey,I put a pair of V11 Sport pistons in my hydro motor.  Along with adding parts from 18 different model year Guzzi's.  Anything is possible. 

[Huzo]

I'd guess you've never flown a tightly cowled high speed aircraft on climb-out.  In that application its done so that once the plane speeds up it can go faster with less cooling drag. 

I've read things in this thread that to me fall into category of technically weak, although probably not sheer stupidity.  Not understanding that the fuel in a tank doesn't move as a result of the bike being leaned over is one, not understanding the frequency response issues related to fuel measurement and management is also in that category.

Actaully you do understand the fuel in the tank thing, because you studied it in your pilot's syllabus.
If you have your fuel valve set to "both", did you wonder why all the fuel does not flow into the down side tank in a sustained balanced steep turn ?
It's the balance of horizontal and vertical vectors in the turn.
Next time you're up, or out on your bike, hold a pendulum in front of your eyes in a steep turn, it'll point straight at your crotch even in a 60 degree bank.
Just don't drop if it's heavy !

[oldbike54]

 Now we are getting somewhere 

 Dusty

[beetle]

So going to all of the trouble to put wire wheels on a motorbike that has perfectly good cast wheels on it already is any more sensible than wanting to change a gas tank ? By that reasoning the world would not have Rodekyll's amazing Guzzi powered trike with a Convert transmission , or that beast you , Pete , and your other friend just built , which is completely spectacular . Everyone has a vision or an idea of what works for them , good grief , have you seen that old faded Jackal a certain mod rides with saddlebags that look like Samsonite suitcases ? 

 Dusty

Sigh. Changing a tank is not the issue. Adding an unnecessary modification to the tank is.

[beetle]

I'd guess you've never flown a tightly cowled high speed aircraft on climb-out.  In that application its done so that once the plane speeds up it can go faster with less cooling drag. 

That's entirely a different thing, and you know it. Using extra fuel momentarily to cool an excessively hot engine is not the same thing as running it constantly rich.

[pete roper]

May be you could just help the bloke.

Well actually that's what I'm trying to do.

The thing is though there is no *easy* way to do this and I too find the arguments as to why it is neccessary are actually pretty stupid. Cars have had fuel guages for ever and low fuel lights for decades and nobody bitches about not having a reserve on their car! (Do they?)

Orange Guzzi has now given a nice, detailed run down on how he did his. He's also confirmed that the threads on the SP tank are the same as those used on the Cali which makes things a whole lot easier but at the end of the day, whatever is done, there are going to need to be three holes in the tank, (Four if you count the filler before some pedant fires up!). That means some sort of cut and shut or no reserve and no fuel light.

Pete

[Tusayan]

I have a 1986 Yamaha FJ1200.  No petcock.  A vacuum valve opens and feeds the carbs.  I does not work well.  If the bike sits for a few days and the carbs evaporated the fuel out of the bowls, it takes several minutes of cranking to get the bowls filled back up.  I made up a bypass vacuum hose system with check valves and a "T".  I ran one end up of a hose from the "T' up by the handle bars.  I can give it a suck with my mouth causing the fuel valve to remain in a constant vacuum with out cranking.  This allows the bowls to prime before cranking.  After a ride, I pull the branched hose off with one of the one check valves, releasing the fuel valve vacuum.  Works great. 

Some Japanese bikes have a prime setting on the petcock, but not all.   On another bike with a vacuum operated petcock, I lift the (hinged) fuel tank to expose the air cleaner inlet and spray in a little fuel. It then starts immediately and produces vacuum long enough on the priming fuel to full the float bowls.   

@Huzo, yes I do understand acceleration vector triangles and why you lean a motorcycle (or plane) to go around a corner.  Also BTW that if you slip a plane on approach (i.e. uncoordinated light) while drawing from the downhill wing tank, you may run out of fuel at a bad time 

[Huzo]

Hey,I put a pair of V11 Sport pistons in my hydro motor.  Along with adding parts from 18 different model year Guzzi's.  Anything is possible.

That's the third stupidest thing I've ever heard...

[pete roper]

I have to say I'm surprised the Hydro didn't detonate it's heads off with Sport Pistons in it!

[Huzo]

[quote author=Tusayan link=topic=94135.msg1488210#msg1488210 date=1515792952

@Huzo, yes I do understand acceleration vector triangles and why you lean a motorcycle (or plane) to go around a corner.  Also BTW that if you slip a plane on approach (i.e. uncoordinated light) while drawing from the downhill wing tank, you may run out of fuel at a bad time 
[/quote]So you do know why the surface of the fuel stays level with respect to the bike while leaning over.
See the faith I have in you?

[Kev m]

Yes Kev.
I've heard it said before that the LEVEL of the fuel where the float takes it's reading alters when leaning over as in your example of continuously turning left on a circular track.
Suffice to say that the surface of the fuel mass will not alter in relation to the inside of the tank as a result of banking over.
Could you read your response again and clean up the wording if you think it's necessary ?
ie "volume remaining changed" ?

Not sure what you mean by this.

Care to explain/educate where I'm erring?

[beetle]

Here's a comment that's only just occurred to me Beetle.
If anyone thinks I'm throwing out a bait, don't read on, I'm not and I'm not trolling, ( I hope !)
.....snip

Now, if we'd asked how to stick 2V heads on the barrels, that would be stupid. If I'd wanted to stick forks from a 1980 Suzuki 750 on the Griso, that would be stupid.  If the 1400 explodes and I end up with a rod up the chuff, I doubt people would call us stupid. Or maybe now they would. Thanks.

If I ever post here that I'm doing something that is genuinely stupid, then I would expect to be called out on it. I've been labelled a snake oil salesman, a thief, an idiot, arrogant, know-it-all and various other derogatory terms, now including intellectually disabled. So excuse me if I don't give a rats arse.

May be you could just help the bloke.

No.

[Kev m]

Picture attached so wise ones can point to where the fuel sender light could go. Dusty? KevM? and other heroic posters care to flame away
Andy



upload images fast

Uh I don't see where any of my posts in this thread called for a snarky response from you?

Are you literally asking where a light could go or a sender? Cause both would be easy enough.

[bmc5733946]

Gentle people,
 Guzzi in their infinite wisdom has provided for this very thing: may I present a petcock with level sender incorporated GU23105370 used on Mille GT and I presume other models possibly Cal III? !!!  I'm not sure it will work for this tank, but!

You are welcome!

Brian

[Huzo]

Not sure what you mean by this.

Care to explain/educate where I'm erring?

Thought you meant that fuel level moves in the tank due to leaning over, but maybe not.
No big deal.

[rodekyll]

But Pete, using fairly rudimentary mathematics (take note Beetle I am familiar with Mathematics) , I'm thinking say a tap flows 9lts a minute right or something like that, how many times has your bike consumed 9lts a minute? Therefore surely the flow rate ought not be a big issue, it must be able to flow more that the engine consumes? Am I so wrong on this?
As for the second tank option, I have a small pride in that my conversion from Jackal to L'unico has not permanently affected anything. L'unico can go back to a Jackal in an afternoon and My SP parts are still stock SP parts. Win win as far as Im concerned. Also folk might remember its a game. its about fun, it doesn't matter if I try it and it fails, its all about fun. Anyone can have opinions, Im trying it out!

Andy

The injectors don't consume 9l/min, but the pump might want to circulate that much.

[Huzo]

The injectors don't consume 9l/min, but the pump might want to circulate that much.

And THAT'S how we learn !
Thanks..

[Kev m]

Thought you meant that fuel level moves in the tank due to leaning over, but maybe not.
No big deal.

I did (do) think that, though I guess you're about to teach me it doesn't due to force to the outside of the curve or something like that I presume?!?

But is that a constant? I mean the ad in acceleration, deceleration, changing the arc etc?

You're obviously entering into an area where my physics is weak, but I'm willing to learn.

[Orange Guzzi]

I have to say I'm surprised the Hydro didn't detonate it's heads off with Sport Pistons in it!

The clutch would not handle the extra h.p.  One more try with a RAM clutch.  If it does not hold up, back to stock pistons. 

I got the cranking psi down to 185.  Also had valve to piston issues since the combustion chamber is smaller and the valves sit closer to the piston at tdc. 

If the heads go, I know I over achieve my goal for once.   

[rodekyll]

I have a 1200 breva/norge 10-spring flywheel and clutch setup, complete and unused.  Pm if interested.

[Ozzydog]

I may be interested in that tank Pete, but I'd be more interested in the maths of why a tap that flows 9 lts a minute cannot supply enough fuel to a goose motor. When was that last time a Guzzi drew more than 9 litres of fuel a minute? I'm thinking some of the reasons given against what I may plan do not actually stack up with logic
A

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Gentle people,
 Guzzi in their infinite wisdom has provided for this very thing: may I present a petcock with level sender incorporated GU23105370 used on Mille GT and I presume other models possibly Cal III? !!!  I'm not sure it will work for this tank, but!

You are welcome!

Brian

That petcock is sized to feed carburetors and therefore too small to flow enough fuel for an injection system. Good try though... 

[guzzisteve]

Now we are getting somewhere 

 Dusty

Somehow, I don't think so, why would that be?     HA, Pete knows!!

[Ozzydog]

That petcock is sized to feed carburetors and therefore too small to flow enough fuel for an injection system. Good try though... 

I'm genuinely trying to understand this issue. why would it matter whats on the end of the line, carbs or a pump? Surely if it flows 9 its a minute thats going to be enough. If not, why do the injected bikes have a return line to return 'unused' fuel. surely and logically thats because more fuel is flowing in the system than can be used. If that oversupply is diminished a little by a slightly smaller outlet that will just mean less fuel sloshing around through the oversupply system. I can hear excess fuel going back into my tank at idle. I'm really surprised at the logic of this.
A

[Kev m]

I'm genuinely trying to understand this issue. why would it matter whats on the end of the line, carbs or a pump? Surely if it flows 9 its a minute thats going to be enough. If not, why do the injected bikes have a return line to return 'unused' fuel. surely and logically thats because more fuel is flowing in the system than can be used. If that oversupply is diminished a little by a slightly smaller outlet that will just mean less fuel sloshing around through the oversupply system. I can hear excess fuel going back into my tank at idle. I'm really surprised at the logic of this.
A

EFI systems operate by keeping fuel pressure at a constant (through a variable orifice pressure regulator).

Constant pressure is important so the ECU can calculate exactly how much fuel is sprayed over a function of dwell time that the injector is "open".

Return lines are important because they bleed off the excess pressure. That's probably why they have been mostly eliminated by pump assemblies that reside in the tank and bleed pressure off directly inside.

Anyway, if the return orifice is smaller than spec you get a restriction point that effects pressure. Possibly more than the regulator (where is it in this theoretical discussion) can handle.

[Ozzydog]

Well I'm going to give it a crack and report back
The fun part of owning an old guzzi is nothing really matters and if it doesn't work I'll revert back, if it does ill crow like anything😀 I've had 10 years of certain folk telling me I can't make a Jackal into a reasonable sport bike that I've proven wrong 😀. I believe
A

[pete roper]

Well I'm going to give it a crack and report back
The fun part of owning an old guzzi is nothing really matters and if it doesn't work I'll revert back, if it does ill crow like anything😀 I've had 10 years of certain folk telling me I can't make a Jackal into a reasonable sport bike that I've proven wrong 😀. I believe
A

Have you ridden a true Sports bike in the last 25 years? A Jackal, any Tonti in fact, is a fine tool that can punch well above its weight but to suggest it's a 'Sports' bike by any contemporary standard is absurd. Even a well dialled in Shiver would eat it for breakfast and spit it out in tiny chunks! Put it up against something like a Tuono and it would be like it doesn't exist!

Flow is basically a cross sectional area game. The pump produces a low pressure area, atmospheric pressure working on the surface of the fuel in the tank pushes it into the pump. That pressure doesn't vary. If the orifice you are trying to push the fuel through is too small the pump will end up cavitating and you won't maintain pressure in the rail. A 3mm pipe isn't big enough to supply the pump's demand. That is why your Jackal has a 12(?)mm fuel orifice in its solenoid tap.

[lucian]

Damn, and I thought trading from  pia carbs and leaky petcocks and loosing power or stalling when I really was never actually OUT of gas for the easy of FI and convenience of a dash reminder was a good thing.

[Orange Guzzi]

Damn, and I thought trading from  pia carbs and leaky petcocks and loosing power or stalling when I really was never actually OUT of gas for the easy of FI and convenience of a dash reminder was a good thing.

Is that from experience or something you read on the internet?

[lucian]

Carbs were ok back when they were the only option.  Now with ethanol, and compared to fi they are obsolete.  I just don't understand why anyone  would want to take a more modern, lighter weight, trouble free , easier to tune with fewer moving parts fuel delivery system and add antiquated components to it.
What's the point of it? A tank still only holds what it holds period.  Ever try rebuilding six carbs off a cbx ?  been there done that . I'll take FI any day, and ya that was before the internet.