Rollerization not necessary?

[Lannis]

  OK, there's no belt drive on the engines with the failures?  There's more than one four valve type engine?

Yes.   The 90's "Centauro" and "Daytona" had cam belts with a recommended 18,000 mile change interval (although based on the excellent condition of the belts being replaced, we started pushing those intervals for bikes not used on a track).

The later 4V Stelvios, Grisos, etc don't have belts .....

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

Yes.   The 90's "Centauro" and "Daytona" had cam belts with a recommended 18,000 mile change interval (although based on the excellent condition of the belts being replaced, we started pushing those intervals for bikes not used on a track).

The later 4V Stelvios, Grisos, etc don't have belts .....

Lannis

  Thanks.. I'm poking around at later Guzzi's for sale getting some info on the 4 valve problems...So the belt cam drive Guzzis don't have the problems

[Wayne Orwig]

  Thanks.. I'm poking around at later Guzzi's for sale getting some info on the 4 valve problems...So the belt cam drive Guzzis don't have the problems

I do recall a small number of people had problems with their Centauro cams. Not a big issue, but then they didn't make as many.

[Rough Edge racing]

 I don't mind buying a bike needing mechanical repairs if the price is right and the parts are available....But I don't want an engine with junk from failed cam lobes or lifters floating around inside... I've torn down in the past a hot rod car engine that suffered a cam lobe failure . The oil filter captured some of it but the debris was embedded in all the bearings requiring a full engine strip ,honing, cleaning ,new rings and bearings...

[pete roper]

Since the ‘80’s Guzzi have made several. The smallblock 4V used in the Lario/Imola and a couple of other models, the earlier big block Hi-Cams used in the Daytona/Centauro series and then the ‘Nuovo Hi-Cam’ used in the CARC series and California 1400.

Pete

[guzzisteve]

If they built a DOHC head I would bet the shims would be soft.

[tonyduc]

I have a 2011 Stelvio with 8,000 miles I bought new in 2014 from a dealer in NJ. Hearing about these issues I talked to another Guzzi dealer closer to where I live about a year ago because I wanted him to service the bike. He is a Guzzi factory trained mechanic for many years, recently turned owner. He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem. Now since he is not the dealer that sold me the bike, he has every incentive to tell me failure is imminent and have me pay for the service. Rather, he told me to change the oil regularly and examine it for any unusual fragments and keep an eye on valve clearance. But essentially his message was that the incidents are so low it does not pay to spends thousands. I know this is contrary to what most people on this site are saying but it has 8,000 + miles and runs perfect.

[John A]

I have a 2011 Stelvio with 8,000 miles I bought new in 2014 from a dealer in NJ. Hearing about these issues I talked to another Guzzi dealer closer to where I live about a year ago because I wanted him to service the bike. He is a Guzzi factory trained mechanic for many years, recently turned owner. He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem. Now since he is not the dealer that sold me the bike, he has every incentive to tell me failure is imminent and have me pay for the service. Rather, he told me to change the oil regularly and examine it for any unusual fragments and keep an eye on valve clearance. But essentially his message was that the incidents are so low it does not pay to spends thousands. I know this is contrary to what most people on this site are saying but it has 8,000 + miles and runs perfect.

Id ask him to learn the procedure on rollerizing and pay him to do it before it comes to a point where it damages the rest of the engine. If he can get any warranty help that would be a plus but I wouldn't hold up because of it. the damage is hidden and because it runs well is not an indicator that it does not have this problem. please read all of Pete's posts on it

[Lannis]

I have a 2011 Stelvio with 8,000 miles I bought new in 2014 from a dealer in NJ. Hearing about these issues I talked to another Guzzi dealer closer to where I live about a year ago because I wanted him to service the bike. He is a Guzzi factory trained mechanic for many years, recently turned owner. He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem.

If he thinks that the percent incidents of this happening is "very low", then he is NOT in fact familiar with the flat tappet issue.

And if he's that ignorant about a subject around which he purportedly makes his living, I wouldn't trust him to do anything else on my motorcycle either.

Lannis

[pete roper]

I have a 2011 Stelvio with 8,000 miles I bought new in 2014 from a dealer in NJ. Hearing about these issues I talked to another Guzzi dealer closer to where I live about a year ago because I wanted him to service the bike. He is a Guzzi factory trained mechanic for many years, recently turned owner. He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem. Now since he is not the dealer that sold me the bike, he has every incentive to tell me failure is imminent and have me pay for the service. Rather, he told me to change the oil regularly and examine it for any unusual fragments and keep an eye on valve clearance. But essentially his message was that the incidents are so low it does not pay to spends thousands. I know this is contrary to what most people on this site are saying but it has 8,000 + miles and runs perfect.

It will fail. No ifs or buts. Unfortunately there will always be those who choose to believe otherwise. One of the things Piaggio is counting on is people like yourself who don�t ride your bike often or far not checking. By the time the damage becomes apparent by noise they�ll be able to shrug their collective shoulders and say it was age or neglect that caused it. It takes fifteen minutes to pull a cambox. Unless you do that you know nothing. By 8,000 miles wear is usually evident.

Yeah, really rare.

































And that’s just a few chosen randomly from my photostream! It’s not like I have to go searching :D

[guzzisteve]

The dealer knows the procedure if he changed the original ones that did not spin, if not, they will wear square holes in the tops. Maybe they never sold any early 8V's till recently.
I guess they(dealer) doesn't read or do the stuff in the Tech Bulletins.

[Wayne Orwig]

He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem.

The worse part of that comment is that YOUR motor is getting filled with DLC shrapnel.

Sadly, he is very wrong.

[Lannis]

I know this is contrary to what most people on this site are saying but it has 8,000 + miles and runs perfect.

They run perfect right up until the DLC material wears completely away and starts filling the motor with shrapnel.

Mine ran perfect for 39,000 miles until it was taken apart and found that the tappets were on the ragged edge of failure ....

Lannis

[pete roper]

As I keep trying to explain you won’t know unless you LOOK. They will continue to run fine-ish and the valve clearances change very little until all the DLC is gone and the cam starts abrading the parent metal of the tappet. They only start making a noise when they are totally ‘Donald Ducked’!

Pete

[LowRyter]

I have a 2011 Stelvio with 8,000 miles I bought new in 2014 from a dealer in NJ. Hearing about these issues I talked to another Guzzi dealer closer to where I live about a year ago because I wanted him to service the bike. He is a Guzzi factory trained mechanic for many years, recently turned owner. He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem. Now since he is not the dealer that sold me the bike, he has every incentive to tell me failure is imminent and have me pay for the service. Rather, he told me to change the oil regularly and examine it for any unusual fragments and keep an eye on valve clearance. But essentially his message was that the incidents are so low it does not pay to spends thousands. I know this is contrary to what most people on this site are saying but it has 8,000 + miles and runs perfect.

perhaps he's only serviced a couple of bikes? 

It's not like there are many bikes on the road and probably fewer owners with the  info to even ask.

[Lannis]

perhaps he's only serviced a couple of bikes? 

It's not like there are many bikes on the road and probably fewer owners with the  info to even ask.

That doesn't square up with the "percent incidents being very low".   How would he know that unless he's serviced LOTS of motorcycles and only a couple of them had the problem?   

He'd have to have had 50 or 100 bikes in the shop that did NOT show a problem to be able to make that statement. 

It's bad enough that Guzzi screwed the pooch and wouldn't admit it.   It's worse, 4 years after it became obvious to the world, when people getting paid to work on these things spread B.S. about them ....

I'll shut up about it now unless further encouraged.   

Lannis

[tonyduc]

On a more positive note, after 6 years I just finished the rebuild/restoration of my 76 T3 and it’s ready for a ride !

[Lannis]

On a more positive note, after 6 years I just finished the rebuild/restoration of my 76 T3 and it�s ready for a ride !

I'll bet installing the roller tappets on THAT was a beast of a job ....

[Gliderjohn]

From tonyduc:

On a more positive note, after 6 years I just finished the rebuild/restoration of my 76 T3 and it�s ready for a ride !

They are great bikes. Had mine (75) since fall of 89.



GliderJohn

[Old Jock]

  Thanks.. I'm poking around at later Guzzi's for sale getting some info on the 4 valve problems...So the belt cam drive Guzzis don't have the problems

Well err yes they can.

Not this particular issue, but there were some Centauros and Daytona RS engines fitted with dodgy cam followers and the Hi Cam's are notorious for the oil pumps which, due to their insane design, fail and sometimes the alloy gears too.

I've also heard whispers about the valves too, but not sure on the details.

This is before we get to the gearbox, but I'm depressed enough at it is

Sorry a little off topic

[Litre1000]

When I was a General Motors technician, we did warranty work on trade-ins. It was easy money. What’s stopping them from doing the same?
Unless they know Guzzi won’t pay for it. Which means they lied to me about how I shouldn’t worry about it if it goes south after I buy it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John A]

I remember the low failure rate of chrome plated aluminum cylinders in the '70s. I'd also like to point out that we are not the only manufacturer with occasional problems. The internet has made it possible for the more knowledgeable to help the rest of us who have the ability to grasp the concepts. We can fix it if we know about it and don't stick our head in the sand. When I worked at a big four Japanese motorcycle store we had discussions about how emotional some people would get over mechanical problems on what was loosely described as a toy. It's understandable because we care about our machines.Maintain it to your own standards.

[severely]

I have a 2011 Stelvio with 8,000 miles I bought new in 2014 from a dealer in NJ. Hearing about these issues I talked to another Guzzi dealer closer to where I live about a year ago because I wanted him to service the bike. He is a Guzzi factory trained mechanic for many years, recently turned owner. He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem. Now since he is not the dealer that sold me the bike, he has every incentive to tell me failure is imminent and have me pay for the service. Rather, he told me to change the oil regularly and examine it for any unusual fragments and keep an eye on valve clearance. But essentially his message was that the incidents are so low it does not pay to spends thousands. I know this is contrary to what most people on this site are saying but it has 8,000 + miles and runs perfect.

   I purchased a used 09 Stelvio that already had the dealer recall already performed at around 8K miles. At 11K miles, after speaking with Pete Roper I disassembled the cam boxes and to my surprise found all 4 of the recalled tappets had coating missing. What is it about a person who won't listen to the experiences of others? Good luck brother, you're gonna need it.

[pebra]

As I keep trying to explain you won�t know unless you LOOK. They will continue to run fine-ish and the valve clearances change very little until all the DLC is gone and the cam starts abrading the parent metal of the tappet. They only start making a noise when they are totally �Donald Ducked�!

Pete

What's the risk that a mechanic will misinterpret what he observes?
"Tappets look ok, hardly any wear  -  valve clearances ok, hardly changed  -  bike's running fine" = No problem

While the correct interpretation is ANY wear = failed part and possible damaged engine?

[Chuck in Indiana]

What's the risk that a mechanic will misinterpret what he observes?
"Tappets look ok, hardly any wear  -  valve clearances ok, hardly changed  -  bike's running fine" = No problem

While the correct interpretation is ANY wear = failed part and possible damaged engine?

I'd say it's pretty likely if he doesn't know what he doesn't know.. <shrug>

[bpreynolds]

I have a 2011 Stelvio with 8,000 miles I bought new in 2014 from a dealer in NJ. Hearing about these issues I talked to another Guzzi dealer closer to where I live about a year ago because I wanted him to service the bike. He is a Guzzi factory trained mechanic for many years, recently turned owner. He also is very familiar with the flat tapper issue and said that the percent incidents of this happening is very low and that he has only seen a couple of bikes having this problem. Now since he is not the dealer that sold me the bike, he has every incentive to tell me failure is imminent and have me pay for the service. Rather, he told me to change the oil regularly and examine it for any unusual fragments and keep an eye on valve clearance. But essentially his message was that the incidents are so low it does not pay to spends thousands. I know this is contrary to what most people on this site are saying but it has 8,000 + miles and runs perfect.

Bull.  Let�s assume your bud is the biggest dealer mechanic in all of US Guzzidom.  When he says the �percentage� of bikes this is happening with is low what in the world is he basing this on, some kind of X ray vision he�s using to check the bikes out?  Because I know there�s not been a bulletin telling him it�s low and I know, even if he�s the biggest Guzzi dealer in America, he�s still not seeing enough bikes to base this claim upon.  So I guess he�s torn down a lot of bikes to inspect them and report no wear?  Cause that�s what he�s basically saying.  Or maybe not many folks with 8V tappet problems are showing up in his shop and he thinks that�s a valid basis?  Still bull. 

But take him at his word. I�m no expert, but I have had a ton of service experience with various and many dealers.  I guess one could say I�m a little tarnished.  I read this above as the total opposite of him having inventive.  First, if he�s familiar with the issue then he really does NOT have every incentive to get you to pay for it; in fact, he�s got more incentive NOT to do it.  If he�s familiar then he knows what a pita it is.  He knows the 6-8 hours or more involved, the documentation and pictures he�ll have to submit, and in the end he won�t be making profit on anything but straight labor whereas the majority of bikes he�s probably servicing he�ll make labor and some measure of parts and be done with those bikes in small hours.  If he is the responsible person you say and finds wear and he�s concerned at all about being held accountable for it, then he�ll be obligated to do the job.  That means he�s gonna have to let your bike sit there in his shop torn down until documentation process is approved and kit ultimately sent.  All the while, other more profitable and or more pressing jobs (warranty claims for bikes he actually has sold) await.  How do I know all this?  Because I�ve been told basically the same thing you have, but a bit more honest, by a trusted dealer who was covered up in service work and just flat told me, �It�s a big job, we can�t get to it right now, bring it back to us in the Fall.�  I appreciate them being straightforward with me about it and not telling me, �Ah, don�t worry about it.�  If it is/was a so called �profitable� job for a dealer to do - it�s not - then he�d be squeezing me in to get it done over the warranty and labor/parts work that awaits him.  Of course, Pete gets these done way faster than most folks, but maybe ask him if he�s lining his pockets with profit from rollerization work?  Long story short, I don�t believe any dealer has a lot of incentive to report wear or even volunteer to check a bike out when they have more profitable and less troublesome jobs that await; rather, it�s way easier to just tell someone, �Internet jabber, not happening with many bikes� etc., etc. 

[Kev m]

When I was a General Motors technician, we did warranty work on trade-ins. It was easy money. What’s stopping them from doing the same?
Unless they know Guzzi won’t pay for it. Which means they lied to me about how I shouldn’t worry about it if it goes south after I buy it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wasn't one of the problems with dealer retention that MGNA wasn't paying cash for warranty repairs and instead issuing parts credit?

If that was or is true yes, it's possible they are lying to you or just don't know better.

[bpreynolds]

When I was a General Motors technician, we did warranty work on trade-ins. It was easy money. What�s stopping them from doing the same?
Unless they know Guzzi won�t pay for it. Which means they lied to me about how I shouldn�t worry about it if it goes south after I buy it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I might be misunderstanding your post but the roller job is not a warranty claim, they are merely honoring claims when filed.  In similar manner they didn't issue a warranty claim on the single, dual plate clutch repair job on a former California I owned; they paid for parts and I paid for labor. 

[LowRyter]

That doesn't square up with the "percent incidents being very low".   How would he know that unless he's serviced LOTS of motorcycles and only a couple of them had the problem?   

He'd have to have had 50 or 100 bikes in the shop that did NOT show a problem to be able to make that statement. 

It's bad enough that Guzzi screwed the pooch and wouldn't admit it.   It's worse, 4 years after it became obvious to the world, when people getting paid to work on these things spread B.S. about them ....

I'll shut up about it now unless further encouraged.   

Lannis

two of a couple = 100%

[guzzisteve]

Every single one I pulled apart was bad, from 6Kmi to 40Kmi.  They wear at different rates but they are all going to fail. First it's a discolored circle then it starts to break down and comes off.  Running good oil and changing every 1500mi just prolongs the end.
I had 1 Stelvio that got 3 set's of flatties to make it to 50Kmi. The 1st swap was at 10Kmi and one tappet was ground down terrible.
AND you can do both sides in 2hrs NOT 8 or 10, pretty easy to do it IF you want to work & get parts. More time if you pull heads(max would be 6hrs total)