850 T-3 Front engine through bolt question, need help

[elvisboy77]

I am very close to "crabbing" the frame and getting the motor out where I can replace the clutch and main seal etc.

Everything is disconnected electrically, the lower frame members are loose, etc.  That front engine through bolt, 19 MM head, will not budge!  I got the nut off of the left side, and have been spraying PB blaster and tapping the thing with a hammer for 3 days, trying a wrench and cheater, but no luck.

Does someone have a trick for freeing this up?  Is the frame threaded in any way?  Any help appreciated, i don't want to shear this thing off if I can help
it!

[John A]

No, the frame is not threaded. Keep soaking it and use a heat gun to heat and spray, cool it off and heat it over and over. An impact gun will help break the corrosion bond. Cutting the bolt out yields poor results.Patience will help you.  Use anti seize when you put it back together .

[Zoom Zoom]

As far as  I know, the long bolt is not threaded into the frame. Most likely, it is seized in the front of the block. It sounds like what you're doing is on the right track.

I recall seeing something here a while back where someone used candle wax and some heat.

Here is a video example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qqMXXGgFQg

John Henry

[acogoff]

     No threads in the frame that I have noticed, only a hole. You do know that there are 4 places to spray your blaster as the boss the bolt runs through has a gap in the middle? At least on my '77 T3. All you need is a slight amount of looseness to get the frame to swing upward, leaving the bolt in place. That said , now would be a good time to get the through bolt out of there and clean it up and anti seize it on reassembly. I would just keep pounding on the nutless end with a hammer and a brass drift would be a good idea and be very patient.  I would not twist on the bolt head as you will twist it off.

[elvisboy77]

Thanks to everyone for replying.  Sounds like I am on the right track, and thanks for the heads up about the gap to spray into..that's great to know.  This is a really cool bike, my 9th or so Guzzi but an amazing bike.  Anyone who has one knows what I mean.  Anyway I'll give it a shot again.

[Guzzistajohn]

I can tell you from experience there are no threads on a CX100 or a LMIII. I think I would try to force the panther piss in with some compressed air for a few days. I would zap it a little with a rattle gun after that.

[fotoguzzi]

that gap in the front cover is the key, it's been splashed with all kinds of road grime and grit, get it cleaned up good, PB blaster and heat.

frame is not threaded.

[elvisboy77]

I can tell you from experience there are no threads on a CX100 or a LMIII. I think I would try to force the panther piss in with some compressed air for a few days and twist the nut end with a rattle gun.

I was thinking that too, a light impact wrench.    Is there something more magical than PB Blaster for spraying into it?  I have had good luck with that in the past.

[elvisboy77]

that gap in the front cover is the key, it's been splashed with all kinds of road grime and grit, get it cleaned up good, PB blaster and heat.

frame is not threaded.

Ok this is perfect.  Many thanks.  I know what to do.

[Guzzistajohn]

I was thinking that too, a light impact wrench.    Is there something more magical than PB Blaster for spraying into it?  I have had good luck with that in the past.

I used PB blaster back in my wheelchair mechanic days. Nothing like a little urine to seize a bolt. It’s hard to beat.

[wirespokes]

There's a feeling that a 50/50 mix of Acetone/ATF is the best way to free rusty parts. It's in fact Power steering fluid, not ATF.

I'd use something hotter than a hair drier. Like a propane torch. Don't leave it in one place too long - move it around constantly. The heating/cooling cycles will help draw in the penetrating oil.

When tapping on the threaded end, have the nut attached loosely. It's not how hard you hit it but the shock waves created. The bolt vibrates at a different frequency than the block and that will help break it loose.

As with anything like this, it's easy to think it'll never change, but eventually there will be some slight movement. Don't keep pushing one direction. Go back and forth, like rocking a car out of a snow drift. Once the bolt moves a little, tap it from the other side and drive it back in. Each time it moves it draws some more of the penetrating oil into the rusty areas.

[shaggy]

I had the same problem,I hope you dont have to go thru what i did. Heat or snake oil did not work. In the end i cut thru the bolt at the frame rails,saving the cover. then i drilled the bolt out of the cover. frame rails were then built back up with weld.

 i wish you luck

[Chuck in Indiana]

A copper hammer will do some serious *smiting*  without damaging the bolt. Like everyone (almost) sez, heat, AeroQroil  smite and turn.

[elvisboy77]

I had the same problem,I hope you dont have to go thru what i did. Heat or snake oil did not work. In the end i cut thru the bolt at the frame rails,saving the cover. then i drilled the bolt out of the cover. frame rails were then built back up with weld.

 i wish you luck

Yikes!  Thanks for the heads up.

[elvisboy77]

There's a feeling that a 50/50 mix of Acetone/ATF is the best way to free rusty parts. It's in fact Power steering fluid, not ATF.

I'd use something hotter than a hair drier. Like a propane torch. Don't leave it in one place too long - move it around constantly. The heating/cooling cycles will help draw in the penetrating oil.

When tapping on the threaded end, have the nut attached loosely. It's not how hard you hit it but the shock waves created. The bolt vibrates at a different frequency than the block and that will help break it loose.

As with anything like this, it's easy to think it'll never change, but eventually there will be some slight movement. Don't keep pushing one direction. Go back and forth, like rocking a car out of a snow drift. Once the bolt moves a little, tap it from the other side and drive it back in. Each time it moves it draws some more of the penetrating oil into the rusty areas.

This is very helpful, thanks. I'll keep you posted.

[rodekyll]

All good ideas.

I like to get a rattle gun on the bolt after a healthy dose of penetrate and time.  If you can run the gun in reverse and pull on it a little you might "thread" it out.  Sometimes getting it spinning while a friend "smites" the nut you put over the exposed threads will start it moving.  Also, once you get a gap between the bolt head and the frame you can get a pry bar in and pull the bolt back enough to get vice grips on it.

There is a good chance you're going to mangle the threads on the bolt.  A thread file is your friend for this.  I've repaired many this way.

Sometimes "centering" the engine and frame on the bolt helps.  I use a scissors jack under the engine pan to help relieve side pressure and align the holes.

Sometimes it helps to also remove those big allen bolts that hold the front part of the frame together.

I use red waterproof grease for reassembly.

That's all I've got.

[Stevex]

Mine was seized solid too. I ended up cutting the bolt to removed the frame rails, took the front chest off the engine and got an engineering shop to drill it out.
Look at the amount of bolt shank hidden in the enclosed holes to left and right, if the corrosion is bad, a grenade won't budge it and you keep hitting it, eventually you'll break the chest; better to bite the bullet and get it drilled out.

[Idontwantapickle]

Thanks to everyone for replying.  Sounds like I am on the right track, and thanks for the heads up about the gap to spray into..that's great to know.  This is a really cool bike, my 9th or so Guzzi but an amazing bike.  Anyone who has one knows what I mean.  Anyway I'll give it a shot again.

Just FYI you do not need to remove that bolt to crab the frame.

[elvisboy77]

A copper hammer will do some serious *smiting*  without damaging the bolt. Like everyone (almost) sez, heat, AeroQroil  smite and turn.

  I may have to resort to that.  Thanks for the idea.

[elvisboy77]

Just FYI you do not need to remove that bolt to crab the frame.

Yeah I know but I want to take the engine out to work on it, and putting the springs back in horizontal will be a challenge no doubt.  I know I could stand the whole thing up, but....

[elvisboy77]

Mine was seized solid too. I ended up cutting the bolt to removed the frame rails, took the front chest off the engine and got an engineering shop to drill it out.
Look at the amount of bolt shank hidden in the enclosed holes to left and right, if the corrosion is bad, a grenade won't budge it and you keep hitting it, eventually you'll break the chest; better to bite the bullet and get it drilled out.

Thanks for the idea, that is a lot of work but like you said, breaking the casting would be a deal breaker.

[Idontwantapickle]

Yeah I know but I want to take the engine out to work on it, and putting the springs back in horizontal will be a challenge no doubt.  I know I could stand the whole thing up, but....

It'll just have to be a waiting game, keep dousing it with your favorite oily solvent. It will yield eventually. They always do, one way or another!

[John A]

Like I said, use a heat gun to heat it and then spray penetrating oil on it to cool it. Repeat until you get bored, do it again the next day. I use a heat gun for stripping paint, cheap at a discount lumber yard. (Guzzi content) The hot cold cycles help break the bond. A propane torch would be faster but a decent heat gun will do the job with less rIsk. keep the heat source moving, stop when the aluminum gets uncomfortable to touch.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

All of the above + this stuff. It really works.

[Shorty]

A device called a screw knocker attaches to a rivet gun. (or air chisel) It will have a 3/8"" fitting on it for the socket. (or adaptor for screwdriver bits) Spray the bolt in the various places with aerokroil, as mentioned above. Let it soak. The screw knocker has a handle on it to apply twisting motion while the rivet gun oscillates. It seems counterintuitive but once you get the bolt to rotate a little, try driving it back in a little. That puts the lubricated part back into the case, helping to spread the 'Kroil.  Use a brass drift to tap the bolt back and forth whilst twisting.  You are fighting dissimilar metal corrosion.

[John A]

All of the above + this stuff. It really works.

I didn't know that existed, thanks. When I worked at an airline we had some stuff called Instant Chill for finding thermal intermittants . It was great fun when you happened to have a can when you walked by someone on a ladder

[elvisboy77]

All of the above + this stuff. It really works.

Ooh I like it.  I am going to try the torch first.  Crabbed the frame enough to remove transmission from engine.  Clutch plates look great except that they all have a huge coating of oil.  Hoping this is a simple main seal and clutch replacement.....the clutch would not disengage and grab when I decided to take it apart, assuming this is oily clutch and gummed up splines?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Ooh I like it.  I am going to try the torch first.  Crabbed the frame enough to remove transmission from engine.  Clutch plates look great except that they all have a huge coating of oil.  Hoping this is a simple main seal and clutch replacement.....the clutch would not disengage and grab when I decided to take it apart, assuming this is oily clutch and gummed up splines?

More likely gear oil from the transmission than engine oil fouling the plates. Replace both clutch hub o-rings, the input shaft/clutch hub seal and (most importantly) the clutch pushrod seals. The early "seal" was just a plastic sleeve, the "upgrade" is a pair of cone-shaped rubber seals. I've never had much luck with those either, I use a stack of 6 o-rings and haven't had a leak since. I will send you six o-rings for FREE.

[elvisboy77]

More likely gear oil from the transmission than engine oil fouling the plates. Replace both clutch hub o-rings, the input shaft/clutch hub seal and (most importantly) the clutch pushrod seals. The early "seal" was just a plastic sleeve, the "upgrade" is a pair of cone-shaped rubber seals. I've never had much luck with those either, I use a stack of 6 o-rings and haven't had a leak since. I will send you six o-rings for FREE.

Thank you!  PM sent

[Kiwi_Roy]

I faced the same problem on my Eldorado re-build.
In the end I took a hacksaw to it cutting through the spacers and bolt.
A friend made me another couple of spacers and Canuck750 sent me another bolt.