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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: izzug otom on August 11, 2023, 12:53:38 PM
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Hi there all. Riding my '95 Cali, fortunately I was near home and at slow 20mph'ish speed, when I heard an unsettling clanking noise, not unsimilar to the sound of the centre stand being flicked up.
I stopped, the engine seemed to run fine. I limped it the 1/2 mile back home, and heard similar noises a couple of times on the way.
Back home on the centre stand I inspected the running gear and soon located it to the drive shaft around the u/joint. So I got reading all about the shaft drive's workings to make sure I understood the mechanism clearly.
As I tried to spin the rear wheel by hand on the c/stand, it would lock up within half a turn in either direction a good few times, before it freed off, but it didn't feel smooth.
I managed to pull the rubber boot back just enough to confirm this, when I found there was a bit of detritus in there. With my magnetic screwdriver I managed to pull a couple of metallic fragments out of the narrow gap between the rubber boot and the rear motor casing, which were well crudded up, rusty needles, obviously from the U/J carrier bearing.
So I'm about to pull the swing arm to check the full extent of the damage, and order some parts. At first I thought the u/j was disintegrating, but I'm assuming the worst, in that if the bearing has collapsed it may have harmed the u/j too. I'm not sure if the u/j can withstand the violent movement it's subjected to when the carrier bearing collapses, but I'm about to find out :rolleyes:
I've read many posts about the removal of the swing arm, and hearing some stories of the swing arm pivot pins being siezed up, I feared the worst, as I've never had the swing arm off in the 9 yrs I've owned the bike.
Much to my surprise, after freeing off the stubborn pivot pin cap nuts, the pivot pins are not seized at all, as if they'd just been fitted the day before. I was sure not to move them, so I can accurately note how many turns each side that the're screwed in.
So I'm just about to have at it and remove the wheel and swing arm, and would just like to ask before I do, if there is anything I should be aware of, and anything else I need to do in advance to make sure everything goes smoothly.
Obviously I need to undo the shocks from the swing arm, and tie the brake calliper up out of the way, but do I have to remove the drive bevel box from the rear of the swing arm, in order to service the u/j and carrier bearing, or can the servicing be carried out if it's left attached.
Any other helpful tips would be most appreciated too.
Cheers, Martin
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If you found "needles", then it's the u-joint. The carrier bearing is a ball bearing.
I would remove the rear drive from the swingarm - the swingarm is much easier to handle without it and you'll want to inspect and lube the splines anyway.
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Thanks Charlie, that's much appreciated
"If you found "needles", then it's the u-joint. The carrier bearing is a ball bearing."
Ah thank you, I'd misunderstood that somewhere in my reading. I'm a complete novice here :bow:, it's my first experience with a drive train repair.
"I would remove the rear drive from the swingarm - the swingarm is much easier to handle without it and you'll want to inspect and lube the splines anyway."
I wondered if that might be so, thanks for making that clear. I'm sure that's best done, or at least the nuts/bolts are cracked unstuck, whilst rigidly attached to the bike.
I much appreciate the links, but sorry, I should have perhaps mentioned, I'm in the UK. I had found one similarly priced to the economy u/j you linked, from Gutsibits, uk, but they're to order, come from italy, who are on their national holiday throughout August, so will take 4-5 weeks to arrive. I've found a few used ones, including a complete swing arm with the uj still installed.
However, I'm not feeling great about fitting an old used one, as mine was a used one, since '95, 60'ish thousand miles (to the best of my knowledge), and that one failed. I can't afford the ones that are a few hundred bucks, but not seen one of these available in the UK. . . . I need to resolve this somehow.
If I fit an old used one, I think I might just worry too much, as I've read some serious horror stories of them failing catastrophically at high speeds.
It doesn't look like anything mechanically that I can't handle, no doubt with some helpful advice here, and I guess if I have no option but to fit a used one, I could tear it down again in the Winter and replace with a new budget u/j, but seems a bit crazy to plan to do the job twice.
Cheers Martin :weiner:
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I should explain, my Cali is my only form of transport, the reason I can't afford to order the new one and wait 4-5 weeks :smiley:
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You're in the UK?
There used to be a place in the Team Valley Industrial Estate (Newcastle) that could rebuild them IIRC
If not and you're near a big town there might be someone else nearby that could help
Good luck
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Great handle izzug otom. Pulling the swingarm is pretty straightforward. There is a large circlip holding the carrier bearing in. The ujoint kit is expensive. I would replace the carrier bearing with the ujoint. This is also a great time to check the clutch pushrod seals and thrust bearing at the back of the gearbox, and to grease the shaft and rear drive splines. Heck why not crab the frame and check the clutch and rear main seal while the bike is apart. Then you are good for a minor lifetime. I think these are very rewarding jobs on the bikes. Best of luck.
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time or money, you'll simply have to pick one!
It's still business hours stateside and MG Cycle typically ships my orders WITHIN MINUTES of reciept. Pay for expedited intl shipping? I'm sure it would cost a mint but you'd have your parts soon and be able to do the job once, and thoroughly with new parts.
Don't be tempted to leave the carrier bearing in situ, change both bits while you're in there.
I have an '00 Jackal. This was the inner race of the carrier bearing. The bike was running at or near the ton with the race like this. U-joint, while a bit sloppy, was still functioning.
(https://i.imgur.com/37DP13Z.png)
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Try here. Might take less time and maybe cheaper shipping to you:
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi:::1.html?language=en
As mentioned, maybe someone local can rebuild it. The carrier bearing may be available at a bearing house. U-joint boot you'd likely have to get from a Guzzi shop.
Tom
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Good Luck, izzug otom! :thumb:
It's probably best to replace to replace both the U-joint AND carrier bearings - but it
sounds as if your budget and need for transport will determine how much you do
right now.
Oh - and Kidsmoke - that's ULGY! LOL!
-Stretch
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You're in the UK?
There used to be a place in the Team Valley Industrial Estate (Newcastle) that could rebuild them IIRC
If not and you're near a big town there might be someone else nearby that could help
Good luck
Thanks Tris, I'll follow this up and check if there's anywhere localish with a good reputation, assuming the the outer casing isn't messed up and the spline hugging teeth are in good shape. :boozing:
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Great handle izzug otom. I would replace the carrier bearing with the ujoint."
Haha, cheers :grin:
Yes, I'd like reassure everyone, that there's no way in this world that I'd replace the u/j, without changing the carrier bearing. I'm sure I'd be beating myself up at a later date if I did :violent1: . . . I've read the horror stories, and even if you save it at speed, there's still the underwear to clean or dispose of :drool:
"This is also a great time to check the clutch pushrod seals and thrust bearing at the back of the gearbox, and to grease the shaft and rear drive splines. Heck why not crab the frame and check the clutch and rear main seal while the bike is apart. Then you are good for a minor lifetime. I think these are very rewarding jobs on the bikes. Best of luck.
You know, I'd been wondering if I'd be able to check the clutch thrust bearing. I was on a trip on a small block nevada from UK down to Marseille, Sth France, then along the South coast of France to Italy and up to Lake Como, then Nth Italy, Switzerland, France back to the UK . . . Or that was the plan :rolleyes:
I had my friend Edele as pillion, and going to meet my girlfriend who was flying to Lake Como for a friends wedding, after which my friend Edele would fly back to the UK and my g/friend would pillion for the rest of the trip.
Man, what a tough old road trip it turned out to be. The original plan was to ride to Santander, Nth Spain, and ride across the Pyrenees before reaching the South coast of France, but 30 miles from home on the motorway, the solenoid fuel tap decided we weren't going any further, so we got towed back home. Luckilly I managed to get the tickets postponed from the ferry company, and used them the following year for an amazing road trip through Spain south over the Picos de Europa mountain range to Portugal and back up north along the West coast of Spain, but that's another story :smiley:
So the next day after replacing the most stupid use of technology I've ever come across, the ridiculous solenoid petcock, with a standard tap, we set off to the South coast got a ferry over to France and headed for the coast of south France. Well just a few miles south of Paris, the heavens opened and dumped the heaviest load of water I'd ever ridden in, with the exception of the West of Ireland with almost horizontal rain and floods on the country lanes, and one time in Laos, but that was a treat in the heat to be riding in a rainy season monsoon, despite several engine cut outs and waiting 5mins before the heat from the engine had dried it out enough wherever it was shorting.
The rain in France just didn't stop that day, and we camped on a sevices picnic bench area having travelled about half the length of France. Apparently it was the remnants of a huge storm that had been brewing over the Atlantic, but the next day it had cleared and off we went. When we arrived in Marseille it was just getting dark, Edele wasn't feeling too well and wanted a hotel, rather than a tent, so we found a nice but fairly cheap place right near the coast with a locked backyard for the bike, and booked a room.
The next day, we set off and just when we'd gone 1/2 a mile on the sea front road of Marseille, the clutch went totally, there was just nothing there but a floppy lever. No problem, although I'd not long since changed the clutch cable, I'd brought a spare. As I managed to pull into a little lay bye, I noticed there was still something on the end of the clutch cable when it was pulled right in to the bar, it was a wobbly lumpy feel to it. Having been into fishing for big fish, it felt that there was a fighting fish on the other end of the cable.
I got under the bike, a few feet from a very busy road, and noticed the adjuster nut was loose on the clutch arm. I knew that didn't account for what felt like a struggling fish through the hand lever though. I tried to tighten the nut but it was slipping on it's thread. I tried some desperate attempt at a temporary fix involving a jubilee clip and a couple of zip ties, but that was as fruitless as it sounds like it was going to be. :rolleyes:
I found that with the nut done up, I could get one good go with the fighting fit clutch, before it completely slipped, and that's how we rode the entire south coast of France in one stint on the motorway toll road. I'd pull up at each of the many toll station, kill the engine and pull to a stop, we'd both jump off the bike, I got under the bike and gently nip the nut up as much as it'd take before slipping, whilst Edele pumped change into the machine to release a ticket and raise the barrier. There'd be trucks etc pulled up behind us, and must've been thinking "wtf is it with these English?" :laugh:
Pulling off with a clutch that's lunging and fighting back, and two up, loaded with camping gear and the kitchen sink, was an unnerving task, and once away, I changed gears without the clutch, which was just about as smooth as using the clutch.
We eventually crossed a bridge, and the sign read 'Italy', and immediately there was a big services area, I pulled in, and called my insurance breakdown policy. I knew if I called them in France, they'd take me to the nearest bike shop, and that'd be it, but I though if I made to Italy they'd manage to get me to a guzzi shop. I messaged my g/friend to keep her posted, when she got back to me and said "Did you know Moto Guzzi's are made just across the Lake from the wedding I'm at?" . . . . . "What seriously?"
I couldn't believe it, I know now that Guzzi road trips to Mandello are a regular occurence, but at the time, I had no idea. All I knew was, they were designed and built in Italy. By now the whole wedding party, none of which knew me or Edele, were all rooting for us, and I believe, willing the Guzzi back home :laugh:
The Italian recovery guy was great, after getting to two Guzzi shops, neither of which could, or wanted, to attempt it, he said don't worry, I'll get you to a place that can help. Third time lucky, we finally got to a Guzzi/Triumph showroom, a big place, but I can't even remember where that was, but they had a look in the workshop, where they at least managed to fit a new clutch arm. So although the clutch was obviously still wrestling me, I could wrestle back a bit without the clutch arm giving up, but I only used it when setting off from a standstill.
So off we went again heading for Lake Como. What a long gnarly ride that was, with no clutch to speak of on windy, mountainous, at times tiny, roads. I 'd been aware, since Marseille, that the clutch was in a serious state and hardly hanging by a thread, and the trip could end at any point, but with a lot of stress and effort, and even more good luck, we arrived on the beautiful shores of Lake Como, riding through beautiful lakeside villages, a quick ferry trip across the water and to the now celebrating (the wedding, and our arrival :grin:) party, before it started to get dark.
The next day, I got to the those famous red Guzzi doors at Mandello, and walked in reflecting on the wild coincidence that unbeknown to me, I was heading to the home of Guzzi's, and despite some serious obstacles, and one poorly bike, here I was. Almost like a religious experience of biblical proportions, I'd managed to nurse my Guzzi back to its maker, and who more fitting could someone be, than Moto Guzzi themselves.
However, just like someone who's just had his strawberries pissed on, my elation soon evaporated. . . . . . "I'm sorry, we can't possibly fit it in. You see, it's August at the end of this week, and all of Italy is on their national holidays, and everyone wants their bike servicing or fixed, before the holidays, and we're flat out busy."
At this point, I felt like bursting into tears, getting on my knees, grabbing a firm hold of one of his ankles and screaming hysterically "OH PLEASE, YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND", but instead, I managed get enough of a grip to say politely. "Oh, do you know of any other possibility? It's just that my clutch is next to useless, and I need to somehow get back to England."
He paused for an uncomfortable length of time, and then said "Just wait a few minutes, I might have an idea, I'll have to make a phone call". Ten minutes later, my hopes were failing, although I knew I still had the hysterical screaming to fall back on, when the guy came out of the back and said "Ok, follow my lad on his scooter, he'll take you up into the hills to a friend that may be able to help you."
My hopes raised again, and now well up in the hills above Mandello, I arrive at this lovely quaint, very picturesque farm, and as I ride up to the buildings there were some early classic Guzzi's and a lovely early BMW. I look around, but nobody was around, then I say this guy walking my way across a field where they were bailing some hay. His name, if I recall correctly, was Mene or it sounded like Mennay. I explained the problem, he said yes, that he'd fit a new clutch. What a result!! I asked when it'd be ready, he said first thing in the morning. It would cost between 400 and 500 euros, I can't recall exactly, I said great, he gave me a lift back to the ferry on the back of a lovely T3, and arranged to pick me up early the next day.
What a great service. My bike was all sorted out, and he showed me the state of the carnage that he'd pulled, various assorted disintegrated bits and a very bent push rod, and he said he just doesn't understand how I'd managed to get it across France and Italy in that state..
They were collecting the hay bales from the field on a Guzzi 500 single motorcycle tractor with the hydraulic trailer rear, looking out over the mountains around Lake Como, it was stunning, blue skies, mountain villages and weathered peaks. I was telling him I once worked on a farm as walked out into the field to have a look around, and met his dad and I got to have a go on the Guzzi tractor.
Wow, excuse me, that's a very long winded way of saying 'yes, checking the clutch seals would be a great idea' :huh:
The clutch feels good, and I'm usually the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type, but I agree, it's probably wise to take the opportunity whilst I have the arse end off the bike. I've never replaced or serviced a clutch before either, but I assume it's all doable, at least with some much appreciated very helpful advice from the Wild Guzzi Guzzisti :bow: :boozing:
Oh, and btw, that wasn't the end of the saga, after a great trip through Nth Italy and Switzerland, when we coming out of a services near Chaumont in France, I got a rear puncture. Got picked up by recovery truck, but France were on national holidays too, and they couldn't find anywhere to even fit a new tyre. The truck took me an my g/friend to a hotel, when my recovery service said the value of my bike didn't warrant the cost of recovery. ... As Tom Waits said "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" :angry:
My g/friend had to get back for work, and she negotiated for me, as I really struggle with the insurance patter, which always seems to be centred around the avoidance of assisting you when in need, and she manage to get 2 flights back home where I could try and find somewhere that'd fit a new tyre, breakdown would take it there, and they'd fly me back to collect my bike .... All that for a puncture :huh:
Anyway, just wait til you hear what happened on the Spain Portugal trip!! . . Haha, not really, that trip went well from start to finish :wink:
I'll read up some threads on servicing the clutch then :thumb:
"Then you are good for a minor lifetime." Haha, I'm pretty sure that's all I need :wink:
The photo ... You can see a few brain cells had been stirring, but laughable all the same :violent1: :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/Q8n2GhN/20090726-IMG-9477.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q8n2GhN)
Cheers, Martin
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Don't be tempted to leave the carrier bearing in situ, change both bits while you're in there.
I have an '00 Jackal. This was the inner race of the carrier bearing. The bike was running at or near the ton with the race like this. U-joint, while a bit sloppy, was still functioning.
(https://i.imgur.com/37DP13Z.png)
As said above, that is UGLY.
Thanks, I'm looking into how, where to purchase, and no fear, I'll definitely be replacing the carrier bearing too. :smiley:
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Try here. Might take less time and maybe cheaper shipping to you:
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi:::1.html?language=en
Unfortunately not, it's a 2-8 week ordering time. They have two alternatives listed, but they're discontinued.
Thanks though Tom
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Good Luck, izzug otom! :thumb:
It's probably best to replace to replace both the U-joint AND carrier bearings - but it
sounds as if your budget and need for transport will determine how much you do
right now.
Oh - and Kidsmoke - that's ULGY! LOL!
-Stretch
I'll definitely being replacing both mate, thanks :smiley:
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Has anyone here refurbished their u/j's with a replacement cross.
This company has some that are listed for Moto Guzzi, but don't list the models, and have 2 or 3 different sizes for Guzzis.
http://www.propshaftrepairs.com/moto-guzzi-u-j-sealed-for-life-universal-joint-hardy-spicer-joint
I've tried to find the cross specs for the '95 Cali 1100, but had no joy. I found the spec for the V7 sport, which is 20mm x 44mm, but it should be easy enough to measure mine with a calliper gauge. If anyone can point me in the right direction for the spec for the u/j cross, please do.
The crosses are available from the companies with a rep for high quality, assuming that is, that anyone has them in stock. It'd be more economical, as they run at £30-40 complete with circlips.
Looking on youtube, it doesn't look particularly complicated, and providing the holes in the U/j yokes are good, and the circlips fit on, I cant see how you could really fit it incorrectly, and to me, it's looking like a favourable option if I can source one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atxj3izLg3A
Of course, I'm thinking this through not from experience, and someone might be able to tell me I'm being daft here and why :rolleyes: :laugh:
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I’ve had one of those…amazing i made it home
On reassembly, it’s a press/interference fit between uj and the carrier bearing. Measure carefully. My machinist took a little metal off to make it so.
He also used a plumbing pipe to keep the uj from flopping around while press fitting it into the swing arm.
Then again plenty of people just stuff it in there. The idea is the uj spins the bearing, not spin inside the bearing
Good luck! Hope it goes quickly to get you back on the road
Guzziology always has good info
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Has anyone here refurbished their u/j's with a replacement cross.
This company has some that are listed for Moto Guzzi, but don't list the models, and have 2 or 3 different sizes for Guzzis.
http://www.propshaftrepairs.com/moto-guzzi-u-j-sealed-for-life-universal-joint-hardy-spicer-joint
I've tried to find the cross specs for the '95 Cali 1100, but had no joy. I found the spec for the V7 sport, which is 20mm x 44mm, but it should be easy enough to measure mine with a calliper gauge. If anyone can point me in the right direction for the spec for the u/j cross, please do.
The crosses are available from the companies with a rep for high quality, assuming that is, that anyone has them in stock. It'd be more economical, as they run at £30-40 complete with circlips.
Looking on youtube, it doesn't look particularly complicated, and providing the holes in the U/j yokes are good, and the circlips fit on, I cant see how you could really fit it incorrectly, and to me, it's looking like a favourable option if I can source one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atxj3izLg3A
Of course, I'm thinking this through not from experience, and someone might be able to tell me I'm being daft here and why :rolleyes: :laugh:
I've done a few Loopframe, early (drum-brake rear) Tonti and small-block u-joints. Those use the 20 x 44 crosses, later (disk rear brake) Guzzis use 22 x 50.
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Good luck! Hope it goes quickly to get you back on the road
Guzziology always has good info
Thanks Chuck
I've done a few Loopframe, early (drum-brake rear) Tonti and small-block u-joints. Those use the 20 x 44 crosses, later (disk rear brake) Guzzis use 22 x 50.
Ah cool, thanks Charlie, that's great to know. So the '95 cali, rear disc I need the 22 x 50. I was reading about different grades of u/j crosses, is there any specific grade/quality rating I should be looking for?
I really appreciate your obvious vast wealth of information, and others here at Wild Guzzi, but more than that, your generosity and good will in sharing it when those less experienced are in need a helping hand.
Despite my lack of experience and knowledge, with the sound advice, information and support shown on threads such as this, I feel confident enough, and better about doing my own maintenance, than taking it to a place I don't know, and paying mechanic fees. Not that a good bike mechanic isn't worth his salt, however I'm not by any means flush, and usually just managing to get by, as opposed to enough to accumulate the damn stuff :weiner: :laugh:
It's not just the cash though, there's something really quite primal about taking the responsibility to tend to your own steed/s, but it'd be unnerving and a struggle to take on some of these jobs without you guys. My admiration knows no bounds. :bow: :boozing:
The world could generally do with a heavy sprinkling of such attitude and approach to life "If my knowledge and wisdom can be of net benefit and help further others in my community, locally or worldwide, I'd like to do what I can to do so". . . . Imagine what the world would be if the politicians, corporations, and, due to such diabolical role models, society at large, if they only had that same approach in their roles, instead of always trying to find another angle to shaft us, pressure us, always squeezing just a little tad more out of us, mostly transferred up to the coffers of the wealthy elite, in the trickle up economics, and not back into societies.
The thing that makes it so stupid, is that I'm certain that the inclination to help others is more in tune with our natural state, than the way of the world we have . . . And I'm not even a hippy :rolleyes: . . . Well, not much of one :afro:
Anyways, I'm rambling, but thanks guys :wink:
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Ah cool, thanks Charlie, that's great to know. So the '95 cali, rear disc I need the 22 x 50. I was reading about different grades of u/j crosses, is there any specific grade/quality rating I should be looking for?
My supplier only offers one choice, so I have to take what I can get. :wink:
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Great tales of travel izzug. Best of luck with the repairs. I always end up taking apart and assembling three times.
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My supplier only offers one choice, so I have to take what I can get. :wink:
Ah, that'll be the one then :wink:
The last thing I was expecting to get stuck with, in my bid to remove the swing arm, was the rear shocks bushes to frame and swing arm are totally seized and refusing to budge. All the bolts had cracked free ok, but I hadn't given a second thought that the bushes might have fused in an attempt to become one with the mounting posts.
Everything else is ready to go, it was all going to be so straight forward, but once again I'm reminded that God laughs at those who make plans :rolleyes: :azn:
Feeling frustrated, so I put the audible version of 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance' on my phone whilst I was pootling, but with the dad being grumpy and his lad whining away, it didn't help :grin:
I've left them soaked in penetrating oil, but not sure it can get to work between tight gunked up, corroded, bushes and the posts.
I was wondering if one of these 2 leg pullers would be the answer for stuck shocks? And if so, can anyone tell me if there's an advantage in one of these two designs over the other?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071DF2ZB4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_3?pf_rd_p=67430c1d-696a-45e1-be6b-972213775cc6&pf_rd_r=7EHT3ZDX1T560XYSADCG&pd_rd_wg=B7O74&pd_rd_w=HbJYT&content-id=amzn1.sym.67430c1d-696a-45e1-be6b-972213775cc6&pd_rd_r=9493a8f3-a03c-447f-822e-a70721fb88aa&s=diy&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwy&th=1
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-AK46080-Twin-Puller-100mm/dp/B0016Y7R00/ref=d_pd_vtp_sccl_4_2/259-2301078-8870669?pd_rd_w=0wKZj&content-id=amzn1.sym.efbe2987-d931-49ca-8bec-ada238e46a4c&pf_rd_p=efbe2987-d931-49ca-8bec-ada238e46a4c&pf_rd_r=SV0K4W2784YCWN11GWWY&pd_rd_wg=Q9NAF&pd_rd_r=6cb76457-326a-4872-a39f-729cc7a9f565&pd_rd_i=B0016Y7R00&th=1
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If I understand you right. You can not get the shocks off the frame mounting studs as well as the swing arm studs. Correct?
Are the shocks still in place, or did the bushing slide out of the rubber of the shock and is stuck to the frame and swing arm stud?
I came across this issue. I was able to get the shock off the bushing, so now I just needed to get the bushing off the stud. Tried what I could to not destroy the bushing. Heat gun, lube, vice grips. Finally gave up and with a dremel ground the side off the bushing. Then it came off.
Measure the bushing, you can get them on Amazon for not too much money. They are shock bushings that you would use to space a stud to the metal bushing inside the rubber of the shock eye.
If you do this route, I would add a large diameter washer to the shock bolt to be "sure" the shock will not work itself off.
Good luck!
Tom.
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Great tales of travel izzug. Best of luck with the repairs. I always end up taking apart and assembling three times.
Nice one mate, thanks :boozing:
I'm hope to avoid the taking apart and assembling three times if at all possible, as my lock up has no roof, being as it's my back yard :wink:
I'm not sure it'd be such a good idea for me attempt crabbing the frame for the first time, out in the open, although I am still contemplating doing so. It'd be good to get in and check the clutch, but there's no sign of there being an oil leak from the seals, in that there was no wetness inside the u/j rubber boot.
I have got an oily wet back end to the engine, but from much higher up. I think this was down to an oil breather pipe that comes from the nipple on the air box, having folded on itself forming a kink which blocked it. Although it always looks black and wet back there, it doesn't seem to use oil, and it never drips a drop in the yard. I think I read that it could also be a leaky sensor, but can't remember where I read that, or whether I've confused that with something else.
I think I'd be feeling a bit happier, more secure, about it if I could tie it off to a roof beam. . . . Not sure I'll let that put me off. I do have plenty of good solid flat blocks to make a good support under the engine, and despite living in the city, the only entrance to the backyard is well secured with a locked iron gate, the top of which is lathered with grease.
I was contemplating perhaps bringing it in the house, I have a good sized back room on the ground floor, and a wide front door, for a month or so in the depths of winter, to carry out a few things I've had in mind, including getting rid of some rusting on the frame, which may be a better time to crab it and sort the clutch. . . . So yes, still thinking it through at the mo :boozing:
(https://i.ibb.co/TmvvV2L/20230812-20230812-193037.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TmvvV2L)
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If I understand you right. You can not get the shocks off the frame mounting studs as well as the swing arm studs. Correct?
Thanks Tom. Yes that's correct, the shocks are jammed in place preventing me from proceeding with the swing arm removal, and assessing the damage to the u/j, so as to know exactly what I need to place an order. I was hoping to order all I need first thing tomorrow morning, but such is life :wink:
I just can't budge them at all. Although it's not easy to get anything behind them to try and lever them off, and a whack from a rubber mallet has no effect, and don't want to go to hard doing that for fear of damaging them. I think I'll order a 2 leg puller this eve, so it should arrive tmro, and this will hopefully resolve the issue and save me smashing my hands, or bike up. :rolleyes:
Yes thanks, I'll order some new bushes, I'm sure I'll probably need them :thumb:
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If the puller works, you may get lucky and the bushing will come off as well with the shock. Most likely, it will pull the shock and the rubber bits in the shock eye off leaving the bushing on the studs.
If so, what I wrote is about the easiest way to get the bushing off and do the repair. Well, unless someone has a better way.
If it wrecks the rubber bits, it's possible to get some universal rubber bits that would work. Or, you may have to look for a good used set of shocks, or maybe go new?
Tom
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Bugger!
3 jobs to do to get to the ONE you NEED to do.......
'Twas ever thus. You certainly have MY sympathy!
Let's hope that the penetrating oil works on the shock bushings.
A spot of anti-seize on the the shock mounts and a wee bit of loctite
on the threads should do ya on reassembly.
I lost the clutch cable on my old XS750 one evening in DC while I was in the service.
Shifting, as you did, was fine clutchless. Eventually, I had to stop at
a traffic light. What to do? I recalled reading that Phil Hill once got his Ferrari
across the line at Lemans(?) by using the starter motor only. Hmmm......
if it's good enough for Phil Hill, it's certainly worth a try. I killed the engine
at the lights, and then when I got the green, I punched the starter button -
and chug, chug, chug - VROOOOM! Worked like a charm! :grin: All the way
home like that......
-Stretch
-Stretch
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Not pretty, but I’ve used a propane torch to melt the rubber part of the bushing, and then I think a dremel cutoff wheel. I’ve repressed the memory.
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Well the 2 arm puller arrived, I couldn't even wait for breakfast before I gave them a go.
The threaded section of the pullers has a rounded ball end, so I threaded a hex bolt into the mounting post, which was smaller than the diameter of the bush, to preserve the threads, the hex head taking the ball nicely and helps keeping it central under pressure.
I'm pleased to say, they worked a treat, well at least on both bottom mounts. The top two didn't want to budge, but I did have the claws behind the rear copper washers which folded over and caused a rounded edge that the jaws just slipped off too easily.
I think if I ping them back with a hammer and punch I'll be able to get them to shift, as the shocks themselves have a good flat surface for the claws to get a good grip on. However, if worse comes to worse, they can just stay there as is until reassembly, although ideally, I'd like to get them off, cleaned and copper greased up.
Tom, thanks mate, fortunately for me, the bushes stayed intact and reusable. I had noticed your comment re the dremel though. I don't have one, but I'd done my research on which one to buy incase that was the next step :wink:
Scout, thanks. Not pretty wah-ha-ha :laugh: . . . I'm very pleased not to have to resort to such a task :wink:
Stretch, thanks. That's an equally hilarious and brilliant answer to being stuck without a clutch, and one I'll remember for any such future occasion. Not sure I'd like the idea fully loaded for a couple of weeks camping, and two up, but it can't have been any worse than the situation I was in with a snatching clutch, the setting off was not at all smooth :laugh:
Anyways, all I've got to do is remove the swing arm pivot pins, which I've checked, and they move with relative ease, and then I can inspect the damage of the u/j. Fingers crossed, the shaft splines will be ok.
First though, some breakfast :smiley:
(https://i.ibb.co/4pkjLS2/20230815-075021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4pkjLS2)
(https://i.ibb.co/qC8jM9c/20230815-075217.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qC8jM9c)
(https://i.ibb.co/DtKYSk3/20230815-075840.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DtKYSk3)
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I've done a few Loopframe, early (drum-brake rear) Tonti and small-block u-joints. Those use the 20 x 44 crosses, later (disk rear brake) Guzzis use 22 x 50.
(https://i.ibb.co/TwJrH8g/20230815-130704.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TwJrH8g)
Hi Charlie, I'm a bit confused re cross sizes.
The companies here specify 2 sizes for moto guzzi that are very close to 22mm x 50mm but not exact. One is a sealed for life 22mm x 49mm, and one at 22mm x 50.2mm, which only seems to come with a grease nipple.
I don't think it's feasible to get a grease gun into the cali 1100 without removing the swing arm, and I imagine it'd need greasing more regularly than I'd like to that. Also, from what I've found on Gregory Bender's 'This Old Tractor' site, the 50.2 is actually from a Kawasaki cross reference, but apparently the circlips need to be made a bit thinner for them to fit in the grooves.
Here https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_u-joint_bearing_cross_size.html
The sealed 22mm x 49 mm is listed for Guzzis, I asked a helpful lady at the propshaft company if she's actually sold any to people for Guzzis and she said they've sold 31 of them so far and had no issues from customers. I think, as far as I can gather, that they're spicer hardy crosses.
It looks like the only option for a sealed for life, is the 22 x 49, but .5mm on each of the 4 ends seems quite a lot, either if it's a looser or tighter fit for the circlip.
It seems a bit odd that they'd list it for guzzis if they didn't fit, maybe they're grooved slightly different to accommodate the difference. ... edit: no of course that doesn't make sense it's not the cross that's grooved for the circlip, but fits into the yoke to hold the cross in place.
I have seen the same size for sale in Germany for Guzzi, apparently to fit the Lemans.
I can't find anything online about a 22 x 49 in relation to Guzzis apart from the advertised items. You can see all 4 crosses listed for Guzzis, there are two 22 x 44 one sealed, one nippled, and then the 22 x 49 sealed and the 22 x 50.2 nippled.
Here > u joints tab > Moto Guzzi http://www.propshaftrepairs.com/moto-guzzi-universal-joints
I suppose it's best to measure mine, but I assume it'll be 22 x 50. I just wouldn't have thought you can afford for any tolerance, but then again, I wouldn't have thought they could sell precision engineering gear that isn't precision. I'm a bit surprised that I can't find anything online about it, but I've done a lot of searching the past 3 days and nada :huh:
As for measuring mine, I've got stuck again :rolleyes: The bolt holding the rear foot peg on the right hand side sticks through a lot more than the one on the left, and blocking the swing arm from being pulled and jiggled out. Of course getting the worst of the road crud down there, it's well seized up, so I'm giving it a soak in penetrating oil. I think the bolts on both sides probably need to come off, so once I've got them cracked off, I'll finally get it off the bike.
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When installing the 20 x 44 and 22 x 50 crosses that I buy from my source, I've had to reuse the original circlips - the supplied circlips are always too thick. So, 22 x 49 may be a perfect fit, I don't know for sure since I've never tried it.
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When installing the 20 x 44 and 22 x 50 crosses that I buy from my source, I've had to reuse the original circlips - the supplied circlips are always too thick. So, 22 x 49 may be a perfect fit, I don't know for sure since I've never tried it.
Thanks Charlie, I've found an Italian manufacturer 'Della Concordia' who stock the 22mm x 50.2mm part number CR748 listed simply as Moto Guzzi, along with the 22mm x 49mm part number CR63 listed as Moto Guzzi Spada 900 and Fiat Sedici. Having said that, I tried to find that spec for the Fiat Sedici, and couldn't find that size, but a variety of others
Are you aware of differences in the u joint between the Spada 900 and other big block bikes?
I can't find anything on the Spada 900, only the 1000, but in Gutsibits UK they list one U joint and says fits 850/1000's all models, Cali 1100 etc, and can't find anything different for a Sp 900. In the 'Which Model' section of the parts search, it only lists the Spada 3, which lists as the same spec fully assembled 10 spline Cardan joint, as for the Cali 1100.
I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and see. I'm concerned about not getting it right, as the consequences could obviously be grim, but I'd be surprised if Guzzi used a very slightly different spec on just one particular model like that.
Why is life so confusing, me poor old head's stewed from searching the interweb :weiner: :rolleyes:
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Thanks Charlie, I've found an Italian manufacturer 'Della Concordia' who stock the 22mm x 50.2mm part number CR748 listed simply as Moto Guzzi, along with the 22mm x 49mm part number CR63 listed as Moto Guzzi Spada 900 and Fiat Sedici. Having said that, I tried to find that spec for the Fiat Sedici, and couldn't find that size, but a variety of others
Are you aware of differences in the u joint between the Spada 900 and other big block bikes?
I can't find anything on the Spada 900, only the 1000, but in Gutsibits UK they list one U joint and says fits 850/1000's all models, Cali 1100 etc, and can't find anything different for a Sp 900. In the 'Which Model' section of the parts search, it only lists the Spada 3, which lists as the same spec fully assembled 10 spline Cardan joint, as for the Cali 1100.
I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and see. I'm concerned about not getting it right, as the consequences could obviously be grim, but I'd be surprised if Guzzi used a very slightly different spec on just one particular model like that.
Why is life so confusing, me poor old head's stewed from searching the interweb :weiner: :rolleyes:
No such model as a "Spada 900" that I'm aware of. My experience is mostly limited to early big blocks - up to around '90 - but I would doubt any one model would have a different u-joint cross size, except possibly the early Spine-frames (Daytona, Centauro, 1100 Sport).
I'll see if I can find a used disk brake u-joint in my stash and measure the cross width, maybe that will provide a definitive answer.
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No such model as a "Spada 900" that I'm aware of. My experience is mostly limited to early big blocks - up to around '90 - but I would doubt any one model would have a different u-joint cross size, except possibly the early Spine-frames (Daytona, Centauro, 1100 Sport).
I'll see if I can find a used disk brake u-joint in my stash and measure the cross width, maybe that will provide a definitive answer.
Yes, I spent some time trying to find the rarer than rare Spada 900 after seeing that listed for the u j :laugh:
If that'd be possible that'd be grand. If it's a lot of trouble though, please don't worry, as I do hope to get mine out this evening, fingers crossed, now I've got a couple of hours to try and unseize the two offending nuts 'n bolts. :wink:
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This any help?
https://www.driveshaftparts.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=90
Plus This Old Tractir has a section on Tonti drive shafts
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti.html
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This any help?
https://www.driveshaftparts.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=90
Thanks but no, I've already checked them out, nearest the have is a 22 x 54.
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OK, how about this then https://www.amazon.co.uk/22x50-Drive-Shaft-Cross-7020-290120/dp/B08K7C9FH2
Plus looking at the old tractor site the carrier bearing is a 6206-2RS
That's a bog standard bearing with 2 rubber seals try here https://www.bearingboys.co.uk/SKF-Ball-Bearings/62062RS1-SKF-Sealed-Ball-Bearing-30mm-x-62mm-x-16mm-1898-p
I worked for NSK for 11 months before they closed the business around me :wink:
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The world could generally do with a heavy sprinkling of such attitude and approach to life
Attaboy.. :thumb:
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Yes, I spent some time trying to find the rarer than rare Spada 900 after seeing that listed for the u j :laugh:
If that'd be possible that'd be grand. If it's a lot of trouble though, please don't worry, as I do hope to get mine out this evening, fingers crossed, now I've got a couple of hours to try and unseize the two offending nuts 'n bolts. :wink:
Measured one - the cross width is 50.17 mm, so it's possible the 50.2 mm cross may be correct. This was just a sample of one, so measure yours to make sure.
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OK, how about this then https://www.amazon.co.uk/22x50-Drive-Shaft-Cross-7020-290120/dp/B08K7C9FH2
Plus looking at the old tractor site the carrier bearing is a 6206-2RS
That's a bog standard bearing with 2 rubber seals try here https://www.bearingboys.co.uk/SKF-Ball-Bearings/62062RS1-SKF-Sealed-Ball-Bearing-30mm-x-62mm-x-16mm-1898-p
I worked for NSK for 11 months before they closed the business around me :wink:
Ah thanks mate, I spent a good while looking, but they're shipped direct from China, virtually all of them have grease nipples on them. The one that I found, quite expensive, I'm not sure if it has a nipple. It didn't show one, but then again they didn't show the circlips either.
Also it's the end of the month delivery, some of them mid to late next month :sad:
My uncle worked in a ball bearing factory in Newark most of his life, RHP, later became NSK
The bog standard bearing, would you mean like this one in the photos? :violent1:
(https://i.ibb.co/FHqCNjs/20230815-20230815-211135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHqCNjs)
It's a good job I caught it when I did, I reckon there's only a few thousand miles left in them :rolleyes:
I banged my hands up a few times, getting more leverage using the second ring spanner over the open end of another fixed over the seized nut, same as how I cracked my elbow a couple of times on the swing arm as I was crouched under the rear mudguard where I could get a direct pull on the spanners. It's time I got a lift to work at a more reasonable height, although I was wrenching that hard, I'd have probably levered it the whole thing over,
Swearing could be heard throughout my neighbourhood. Swearing at my own stupidity though, or at least cursing my luck, which I was pushing :rolleyes: I stopped being angry with inanimate objects a long time ago :thewife: :laugh:
I can't find my circlip pliers, I don't know where they are, so haven't attempted to remove the crosses. Quite remarkably, despite them having scuff marks, the u j's don't look to have gone at all. What looked like a pin was probably just a sharp shard from the chewed up carrier bearing They feel smooth in all directions, no rough spots, and feel like they've got that lightish smooth resistance that you'd associate with being greasy.
They must've taken a right hammering though, I can't believe the state of that carrier bearing! And I can't believe I didn't notice it, or least recognise it. I had heard the clanking noise a couple of times when pulling it backwards in my yard to leave. I was puzzled as to why the centre stand would snap up like that, when it'd been parked on the side stand. I checked it, and of course all was ok, doh! :violent1:
Lesson learnt here I think :embarrassed:
I don't wanna even think about how I'm going to budge the inner and outer housing of the carrier bearing. I'll take a look at it today.
(https://i.ibb.co/0ZDLQCC/20230815-20230815-204219.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0ZDLQCC)
(https://i.ibb.co/LvpfVS7/20230815-20230815-204247a-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvpfVS7)
(https://i.ibb.co/dLL0JYL/20230815-20230815-211319-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dLL0JYL)
Measured one - the cross width is 50.17 mm, so it's possible the 50.2 mm cross may be correct. This was just a sample of one, so measure yours to make sure.
Thanks Charlie, I'll see about getting them out and measured today and report back. I'm feeling some muscles that I'd forgotten I had today.
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The bog standard bearing, would you mean like this one in the photos? :violent1:
(https://i.ibb.co/FHqCNjs/20230815-20230815-211135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHqCNjs)
I conclude that that 6206 has deconstructed itself!
Plus I think that heat, a lot of it, and a big daddy vice are in your stars to get that apart
Good Luck
PS if your Uncle worked for RHP/NSK you owe it to yourself not to buy a SKF bearing :wink:
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The 22 x 49mm u/j cross and it's association with the imaginary Spada 900 seems to be a theme across different manufacturers. This is from GNK.
(https://i.ibb.co/y6rDLGT/spada-900.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6rDLGT)
I'm totally confused by this. They don't list other, real Guzzis, but it seems a few companies list these as Sp 900
I can't find a 22 x 50 or a 22 x 50.2 that's a sealed for life joint, just nippled for greasing. The only sealed option seems to be the 22 x 49.
Except for these that I've found in Germany, but made by Elbe in Italy, who apparently supply Guzzi. They're a bit pricey, but it might be a case of 'if needs, must'.
https://hmb-moto.de/Universal-joint-repair-kit-T3-LM-1000
I'll contact them and ask what the measurements are. And how much the shipping is.
Tris, unfortunately I don't have the tools or a decent vice, or heat, I'm totally ill equipped for the task. I was thinking maybe it's time to buy a dremel, but it wouldn't be easy to get in there and take pieces out of it without damaging the swing arm. Not quite sure what to do. I can't imagine penetrating oil would travel far enough to benefit the situation either :undecided:
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The only reason I mentioned a dremel is that it is a small tool that you can fit in many places and use various wire wheels, stones, cut off wheels ect.. They can be handy to have around a shop.
You might want to see if there is a machine shop, motorcycle shop in your area that can remove the remains of the carrier bearing from the swing arm and the U joint. An inside/blind bearing puller might work for the swing arm, but not cheap.
Normally if the bearing is intact, I would use a rod/bar of the right size, put the large open end on the floor, slide the bar through the swing arm and whack the bar with a large hammer. Pops 'em right out.
REMEMBER, there is a C clip that holds the carrier bearing into the swing arm.
Now the dremel part. You could use it with a cut off wheel to remove the bit on the U joint by cutting a slice into it, or maybe a few slices. The bit in the swing arm would be a bit more difficult, but you would cut a slit at an angle. I did this to get a steering bearing out of my R75/5. I had a slide hammer blind bearing puller, but no way to hold the frame rock steady to get the slide hammer to break it free. Also no way to use a pull jaw set that came with the tool.
With the price and hassle of changing out the U joint crosses, and seeing how rough looking the yokes are, why not spend a few bucks more and get a new complete bearing?
Hope this helps a bit,
Tom
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You might want to see if there is a machine shop, motorcycle shop in your area that can remove the remains of the carrier bearing from the swing arm and the U joint. An inside/blind bearing puller might work for the swing arm, but not cheap.
Yes, I'm going to see if a local engineering firm can help out. I'm not sure if there's going to be any of the outer race for a press to push on, is that shiny circle of worn steel not the end of the swing arm I don't know how easily it'll be to get sliced through the bearing casing, only, or how many cut off disks I'd shatter trying, but I am thinking that may be my only option. Cut what I can then hammer and chisel.
I'm just hoping the swing arm itself isn't damaged?
REMEMBER, there is a C clip that holds the carrier bearing into the swing arm.
Could you point to it in the photo please :wink: . . . Ha ha.
I had read of this, but thanks, you wouldn't know it by looking alone, and could have caused considerable wasted effort and, no doubt, numerous profanities :wink:
I hope I'll be able to distinguish it when I clean it up a bit.
With the price and hassle of changing out the U joint crosses, and seeing how rough looking the yokes are, why not spend a few bucks more and get a new complete bearing.
I'll reserve my judgement on this until I've cleaned them up properly and inspected, but I don't think there'll be a great deal of damage to the yokes themselves, maybe a few burrs to get rid of, and some scuff marks.
The actual crosses feel really ok, much to my surprise. If everything was ok in there, and I was just checking them, I'd think they felt fine. There's no play detectable at all, though that might be down to any play being taken up by the compacted crud, but they run smoothly through all their travel in all directions, so if the bearings in the crosses held up to that abuse, I doubt the yokes would be too damaged.
Of course, I know what a hammering they've been taking, so naturally, I'm going to replace them. If I go for the high quality cardan joint, it's 3 or 4 times cheaper if I buy the costlier, but Guzzi quality, crosses from Germany.
If I really had money to burn, I'd probably be tempted to get a tidy used replacement swing arm, a new U/J joint, and save myself some serious effort, but I've got more effort in me, than I have cash in the bank, so rebuilding my old U/J is just the natural way forward for me. It'll still be a good bit cheaper than an economy complete u/j kit, but I'll know I'll have the best quality crosses installed, and I'll know, with some much appreciated help from folks here, that the job has been done well.
I am all good with not being flush financially, I mean it's a life choice I made, not misfortune, none of that being destroyed by a money grabbing ex or the likes. I'm not doing the "my woes, poor me" thing :wink: , but I don't want to appear too tight to do what's required, I just need to try and work within the confines of my budget. Using my yokes and replacing with the same crosses used by Guzzi, is the best quality, at the lowest cost. It's just the way my mind has to work :rolleyes:
I used to have a good successful business buying restoring and selling antique furniture, but I've also always been a gigging musician. Using a lot of very heavy sanding gear on stripped pine furniture, all the rage back then, most of it shipped off to the US, the vibrations were starting to give me numbness in my hands, they'd get swollen up, affecting my guitar playing. So I had the choice of carrying on making good money, at the expense of losing the ability to play music, or not. I chose not.
It's not a romantic, or rock 'n roll lifestyle to boast of, travelling up, down and across the country, doing solo gigs, often in some god forsaken places, carting a full sound system and all the necessary gear to play the gig, get paid, pack it all away, travel up to 3 1/2 hours home, unload the gear, and repeat, anon. It could be quite grim, but I never could stand working for 'the man' :whip2: , and it wasn't really feasible to hold a job down when it was often dawn by the time I'd be getting home.
Playing more locally is much more fun though :wink:
(https://i.ibb.co/PGR17dQ/1-gigabike-equals-1000-megabikes.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PGR17dQ)
1 gigabike =1000 megabikes, no? :boozing:
I make a bit of money from photography, which I studied long before digital, in the early 80's, but only through print sales of mostly street and social documentary photography.
I am extremely wealthy though, it's just not in monetary terms, is all. :smiley:
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Ebay has handfuls of Cali swingarms most under $100….most are about $75
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Did not mean to sound like I was telling you to blow some cash on a new U joint. Just there are times that repairing something is about the same cost a getting a replacement.
If the crosses are as smooth as you say. Once cleaned up and double checked, you may want to just it as is.
The carrier bearing. A shop may be able to weld something to it and then drive it out. For the R75 I mentioned, your supposed to weld a few beads to the cup and then use the beads to drive it out.
Ahh,,, The life of a Rock Star :bow: :thumb: :boozing:
Tom
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Ebay has handfuls of Cali swingarms most under $100….most are about $75
So I've noticed Chuck :wink: I was amazed just how many were listed. There was one the other day complete with drive shaft and u/j, for £95 here in the uk. I can't see it now, so assume that sold. It probably would have been worth it for the shaft and swing arm, as an engineer shop will charge me for dealing with my mess, and I'm not really sure if the swing arm is going to be all good where the carrier bearing seats.
Did not mean to sound like I was telling you to blow some cash on a new U joint. Just there are times that repairing something is about the same cost a getting a replacement.
Aw Gawd, is that how I came across? I'm sorry Tom. I think the point you made was a fair one, and probably the most sensible, for most people, in most situations. My brain only seems normal to me I think :laugh: I'm adhd into the red, I don't medicate for it, as that'd feel like medicating part of myself away, and the last thing I need is an addiction to speed, in one form or another, which was the option.
Stimulants, even heaps of caffeine, have the opposite affect on many adhd'rs compared to others, where it has a calming affect. One of the common traits is to over explain yourself, and was more concerned about being seen as tight fisted and stubborn about not spending for the sake of it. I'm certainly not offended by your comment, that is what most people would do I imagine, and most people I know who prat around on motorcycles, have plenty of money to spend on them.
So I was explaining, overly :rolleyes: . The typed word is not quite the same as talking in person with facial expressions, and vocal intonation, but I appreciate all for chipping in here, regardless of whether something said works for me or not :bow:
If the crosses are as smooth as you say. Once cleaned up and double checked, you may want to just it as is.
Mmm, I think, knowing the chaos and hammer they've had, I'd probably spend too much of my ride time stressing about them. It's not like you can keep peeking to keep a check on it.
The carrier bearing. A shop may be able to weld something to it and then drive it out. For the R75 I mentioned, your supposed to weld a few beads to the cup and then use the beads to drive it out.
Ah yes, that makes a lot of sense. I use to be able to use a really cool, well equipped, motorcycle workshop, for several years, only a mile or so from home. That was so useful. My friend left the area for a woman he met, which was my loss, her gain, lol. . . . I didn't put up a fight :huh: :grin: :grin:
Ahh,,, The life of a Rock Star :bow: :thumb: :boozing:
Hahaha, no mate, I'm really not, but I could sing you a bunch of songs, with some cool pickin 'n slide guitar :boozing: :wink:
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What do people do for cleaning the crap out of the final drive output seal? Lots of crevices with bits of crud that's been flung in there. I'm assuming it's not so good to flood the area with water and detergent etc.
(https://i.ibb.co/7Nzt6s1/20230817-DSCF7387.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Nzt6s1)
I'm taking a look at this mess today too. I know it looks really wet on the gear lever spline area, but I don't think it's coming from there, and there's no dripping at all underneath. I'm pretty sure it's from the airbox vent out, which I noticed a few weeks ago when I did see a few drips.
(https://i.ibb.co/ScqK2SS/20230817-DSCF7393.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ScqK2SS)
On inspection I saw that the vent pipe that dumps the oil collected in the airbox had folded on itself, and was proper kinked, preventing oil from being released. As a result the oil started leaking from around the spigot's connection to the box.
It seemed a bit weird, as it wouldn't have been under pressure, and hence not being forced out, but it'd found the path of least resistance, and the spigot is on the loose side. However, I cut the kinked section of the pipe and refitted it, and there's been not a drop on the floor since. I think there will probably be some slight seepage unless I can tighten the fit.
(https://i.ibb.co/GQ3KJD3/20230817-DSCF7380.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GQ3KJD3)
Can anyone tell me if there's a nut on the inside of the box, that's accessible when the lid and air filter is removed, or is it threaded directly into the box itself?
I'll clean up the mess and inspect, to be sure there is no seepage from the g.box, and clutch arm, but I'm fairly confident that the culprit for all of the mess here was due to the pipe that drains the oil collected in the airbox.
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Use mineral spirits for cleaning off grease and oil. You don’t want water in those areas. Mineral spirits is cheap ( Guzzi content) and can be put in a spray can, available at hardware stores around the oil cans except they have a spray nozzle. Don’t expect them to know anything about them or even if they have one.
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WD40 or similar with a toothbrush or similar. Looks like you have a few leaky areas?
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Use mineral spirits for cleaning off grease and oil. You don’t want water in those areas. Mineral spirits is cheap ( Guzzi content) and can be put in a spray can, available at hardware stores around the oil cans except they have a spray nozzle. Don’t expect them to know anything about them or even if they have one.
Thanks John, I have some in my cupboards. I've used it on some of the casing, but not sure I like the idea of a degreasent around seals and bearings incase it seeps in there. . . . Maybe I'm over thinking this?
WD40 or similar with a toothbrush or similar. Looks like you have a few leaky areas?
Thanks dguzzi, yes I guess WD40 should be ok on rubber, but after librally spraying the shock mounts over 3 days, the rubber had gone a bit squidgy and soft, but only on outer surface though.
I'll reserve final judgement, but my suspicion is of just the one leak from the airbox. This is on account of there being no drips at all under my bike since I unkinked the oil collector vent, and tightened the loose spigot best I could.
If I cant seal the spigot, I'll degrease thoroughly and try some steel putty around it and see if that does the trick. The thing is, that vent is directly above the gear and clutch spindles. Just going on the basis that there's been no drip, drip, drip on the floor for the past few weeks, since noticing the kinked oil collector overflow.
I cleaned around gear and clutch spindles late last night, I'm going to spend a bit of time out there shortly, but I guess they would mostly leak only at running temperatures. So it'll perhaps be a 'time will tell' thing.
I'll fit the hose of Henry the Hoover around the output shaft to suck whatever crap out that I can before cleaning up.
I think I might have a crack at changing brake fluid in both res's this week if I'm stuck a couple of days awaiting the uj crosses from Germany, or if an engineer has my swing arm and drive shaft etc. I did strip and service all 3 callipers early last year as a couple were sticking :huh:, actually, it might have been the year before (it's a short term memory thing :rolleyes:), and although I flushed plenty of fluid through, I didn't replace it all.
Fork oil change is probably well due too.
Cheers, Mart
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I don't know if it's sold in UK, but I use Simple Green. It dissolves most grease and grime and it's safe on plastic and rubber.
And it's cheap. And it smells good.
If needed, I rinse with a water mist spray, not pressure. Then blow it dry.
You might want to cover the output and clutch piston areas. Just make sure it's completely dry.
Time to pull out used tooth brushes you saved for no reason.
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I use kerosene to clean grease off of hard to reach areas of my bike. It is a recommended solvent for cleaning o-ring bike chains. Gets the contaminated lubricant off but doesn't damage the rubber o-rings.
kk
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I use kerosene to clean grease off of hard to reach areas of my bike. It is a recommended solvent for cleaning o-ring bike chains. Gets the contaminated lubricant off but doesn't damage the rubber o-rings.
kk
Thanks, I'll bear that in mind another time.
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I don't know if it's sold in UK, but I use Simple Green. It dissolves most grease and grime and it's safe on plastic and rubber.
And it's cheap. And it smells good.
If needed, I rinse with a water mist spray, not pressure. Then blow it dry.
You might want to cover the output and clutch piston areas. Just make sure it's completely dry.
Time to pull out used tooth brushes you saved for no reason.
Thanks, another thing to bear in mind another time. . . . Haha, yes of course I have old toothbrushes around, still with battery life, so they'll jig around a bit too :thumb:
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Thanks John, I have some in my cupboards. I've used it on some of the casing, but not sure I like the idea of a degreasent around seals and bearings incase it seeps in there. . . . Maybe I'm over thinking this?
Cheers, Mart
No, not over thinking at all. You don’t want to wash any grease out of the bearing so I just wipe those areas. The nice thing about mineral spirits is it doesn’t attack rubber and paint as a general rule.
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Well I cleaned up the crud from around rear of the motor, the gbox casing etc, made it look a bit more respectable. There's no fresh oil showing anywhere, but of course that was likely leak or not, til it goes out for a ride etc.
(https://i.ibb.co/B2m6pKG/20230820-220728-1-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B2m6pKG)
I've found a local engineering co that should be able to remove the seized carrier bearing races from the uj and swing arm housing, and arranged to take them in tmro. I tried with this puller arrangement on the shaft, but I only have woodworking vices set up on a woodworking bench (nothing oily allowed), so I had no grip and leverage.
(https://i.ibb.co/VW8f672/20230820-222259-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VW8f672)
facebook public photos (https://imgbb.com/)
I thought about sticking it on the output shaft, grabbing a tight grip of a spanner on the puller bolt, and with the engine running, flick it into 1st gear, as I wouldn't want it spinning too fast, and maybe that'd crack its seal. But then I wasn't really sure which way it'd spin so . . . c'mon now, I had you going there for a minute :wink: :laugh:
I've ordered all I'll need to complete the job, or at least I think I have. Please let me know if there's anything else obvious that I've left out.
The two uj crosses - in transit from Germany
Carrier bearing - SKF 6206-2RS1
Carrier bearing circlip - 62mm Internal Circlip
O-ring for bevel box to swing arm - O-ring x2 58.42 int dia 2.62 cross section
Shaft external circlip - 18mm external circlip
2 x hose clips for sealing the uj gaiter
2 wheel bearings - SKF 6204-2RS1 Although there's no play detectable, they both sound a bit gratey when I run them round with my finger. They've not been changed in the 9 yrs I've had the bike, so it'd be a bit daft to leave them out whilst
So hopefully, all being well with the engineering co, in removing the seized carrier bearing races, I'll be able to proceed relatively unhindered.
Is it important that I mark the position of the Uj yokes, in relation to each other, or with it being the same measurements on all sides of the crosses, is that irrelevant?
I couldn't find my circlip pliers anywhere, so I bought a cheap set, which arrive this yesterday evening, so I'll finally get around to unclipping them and pressing them out today.
I have to say, the crosses really don't appear to be in bad shape considering, they're free and smooth in all directions, and I can't detect any roughness in them, and not the slightest bit of free sloppiness anywhere. If anything, although I can detect no free play, they may be a bit too light in their designed travel, as I'd imagine them to have a bit more resistance from the grease, but I have no experience whatsoever to go on, so whether what I imagine to be the case has any accuracy, I've actually got no real clue.
One more thing, can anyone tell me what this plastic coating on the inside of the drive side of the rear wheel is all about? Is it important?
(https://i.ibb.co/HC9jNPB/20230819-223211-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HC9jNPB)
(https://i.ibb.co/vmJ1jkp/20230819-223241-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vmJ1jkp)
image uploader (https://imgbb.com/)
As you can see it's coming away, and is very brittle and just flakes. It's leaving the white powdery alloy corrosion. It seems a bit of a crazy thing to have inside the wheel. Is it supposed to be some form of a seal maybe?
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No, not over thinking at all. You don’t want to wash any grease out of the bearing so I just wipe those areas. The nice thing about mineral spirits is it doesn’t attack rubber and paint as a general rule.
Whoops, I'm an idiot, doh! :embarrassed:
I did use a bit to swill out some stuff that was stuck in there, not much, but a bit and used a toothbrush and then tissue to mop up any wetness. I hope that's going to be ok :rolleyes:
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Looks like powdercoat to me
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Looks like powdercoat to me
It seems its doing it's best to return to powder. I don't quite see the purpose on the internal like that, but I guess there must be an explanation.
By the looks of the surface of the alloy, it'll need treating with something, either a tough paint or I don't know, just a film of grease maybe?
I'm sure I won't be the first to ever come across this on a Guzzi wheel :grin:, so hopefully someone will chip in and inform my puzzled mind :shocked:
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Like I said, powdercoat. My snowflake wheels were done with it and after a good few years it started to flake in a similar way to your photo. The corrosion gets under it and then it separates the two.And it's a real bugger to get off where it's still holding on too !!
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Like I said, powdercoat. My snowflake wheels were done with it and after a good few years it started to flake in a similar way to your photo. The corrosion gets under it and then it separates the two.And it's a real bugger to get off where it's still holding on too !!
Yes, thanks Frenchfrog, I see it now. I still think it's a peculiar thing to do to the inside of wheel, but Guzzi's are a quirky make, A quirkiness I mostly adore it must be said.
I didn't attempt to pull it all off, but it seemed to be peeling/falling off really easily, such is the corrosion underneath. I'm not fussed if there are a few stubborn bits left though, it's all out of sight.
I'll start looking up alloy corrosion prevention, I can't imagine it's a good thing to have all that dust being flung about near the drive teeth and wheel bearing etc. Wire brush and some hardcore Hammerite perhaps.
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Time to pull out used tooth brushes you saved for no reason.
Exactly!! And you can heat and form them for 'special' applications!
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Sorry for the delay here guys, I was ill for a couple of days, so never got to the engineers, and then it was the bank holiday weekend in the UK, so I opted for the dremel tool to remove offending bearing races.
One of the biggest problems was that the carrier bearing circlip was seized in place, or so I thought, then I realised that after the bearing collapse, the u/j had been rubbing/hammering against the lip that retains the clip, thus hammering it tight to the circlip. What a pig of a job to remove that was.
(https://i.ibb.co/LYyRt0h/20230826-165751-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LYyRt0h)
I'd given the gnarled edge a light run over on the edge of the retaining groove with the dremel tool grinding disc, in the hopes of freeing up the jammed state, but it was hard to get onto accurately.
I can't say it made any difference, but I managed to use a small gemmy bar and a hagon shock adjuster that I have welded to a bar of iron. Used the hook of the shock adjuster to pull the clip up and kept as much pressure on it as I could, giving enough to get the gemmy behind to give it a good jolt, making it give a little each time. The further I got around the tighter it became, but kept going at it until eventually, after a lot of grunting, I managed to pry it free.
I'll make sure the groove will accept the new circlip prior to fitting the new carrier bearing. It'll probably need a little grinding out with the dremel tool to correct the damage caused from the hammering it received.
(https://i.ibb.co/wCkLphh/20230827-215634-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wCkLphh)
You can see in the next photo, what should be the roughly square shoulder of the lip that retains the circlip has been hammered down to a chamfered slope.
(https://i.ibb.co/9hpzYwS/20230827-215822-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9hpzYwS)
I tried the bbq method of heating the inner race and u/j (it's ok I'm going to be replacing the u/j crosses of course), but this didn't help any, as far as using the bearing pullers.
(https://i.ibb.co/yp8zS37/20230826-172911-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yp8zS37)
However, my new dremel (like) tool arrived, and it ,made light work of the inner race.
(https://i.ibb.co/YRGtCcs/20230827-211905-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YRGtCcs)
I manage to score the u/j, twice doh! (don't ask :violent1: ) But this won't affect functionality, and I'll use some Loctite to fill out to avoid corrosion setting in at these points.
However, trying to cut the outer race free from the swing arm housing is proving exceptionally difficult. I've spent 3 hours with the dremel , but even with the flexible extension, the cut has to be a long diagonal cut, and even then it's difficult not to have some curvature, which has meant many disintegrated cutting discs.
(https://i.ibb.co/Wv9CQLw/20230828-210124-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wv9CQLw)
I've been using a small dental mirror to keep an eye on the depth of the cut, still not easy, but trying to be careful not to cut deeper than is necessary.
I'm going to have another attempt just now. I'll make a cut in the opposite direction, crossing the first cut, and see if that'll allow a section to be knocked out.
I have zero experience with such a task though, and making it up as I go along, so if anyone has any helpful tips on this, it'd be very much appreciated :bow:
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And you can heat and form them for 'special' applications!
Perhaps not a good idea with mine, as they're electric brushes and have built in batteries :grin:
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Yeah, best not heat the electric ones. As for bearing races I've had good results using the dremel only to form a notch, then a sharp smack with a chisel to crack the race. Then they tap out easy or fall out in pieces.
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As for bearing races I've had good results using the dremel only to form a notch, then a sharp smack with a chisel to crack the race. Then they tap out easy or fall out in pieces.
Youch!! Hitting the chisel, well supposed to be :rolleyes:
(https://i.ibb.co/g9x2dYL/20230830-201006-1-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g9x2dYL)
And still stuck fast. A fragment came out, circled red. Perhaps I should start the other side with just a notch as you suggest mate
(https://i.ibb.co/6Rs39R1/20230830-195653-1a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Rs39R1)
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As for bearing races I've had good results using the dremel only to form a notch, then a sharp smack with a chisel to crack the race. Then they tap out easy or fall out in pieces.
Have you had success with the small but nightmarish swing arm bearings with this method, per chance Dguzzi?
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Ouch!!
Good work with the dremel so far.
For my R75/5, I had to make a few angled cuts close together, then try to crack out the bit between the cuts. A lot of patience is required.
Tom
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Have you had success with the small but nightmarish swing arm bearings with this method, per chance Dguzzi?
My tool of choice for those is a blind hole bearing puller. The largest collet is just right.
(https://i.ibb.co/72jR67n/blind-hole-bearing-puller-set.webp) (https://ibb.co/72jR67n)
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Ouch!!
Good work with the dremel so far.
For my R75/5, I had to make a few angled cuts close together, then try to crack out the bit between the cuts. A lot of patience is required.
Tom
Thanks Tom, I'll see where I get to tmro :boozing:
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My tool of choice for those is a blind hole bearing puller. The largest collet is just right.
(https://i.ibb.co/72jR67n/blind-hole-bearing-puller-set.webp) (https://ibb.co/72jR67n)
Is that with no heat being used Charlie?
I've read of some people having extreme difficulty in shifting them, like this from the V11LeMans forum
"so this was the procedure...
1. 2lb slide hammer, no joy...
2. 4lb slide hammer, still no joy...
3. 4lb slide hammer with blow torch....nope!
4. weld a plate with an eye bolt on each bearing....hydrauli c puller on it..... no chance!
5. grind the buggers into tiny little bits...success!
6. powder coat the swing arm due to damage caused during stage 3."
... And I was thinking that skipping parts 1 - 4 + 6, would save me some energy, time and the price of a blind puller set, which I may not have the need for again.
Ps ... I'm sorry Charlie, I meant to say, I didn't want to dismantle the u/joint until I'd got the bearing race off so hadn't measured the crosses.
The new ones arrived from Germany, and blow me, but my vernier gauge dial has seized up :rolleyes:, but as far as I can tell, they look to be 50.2, or very slightly under. They're supposed to be the ones used by Guzzi though, so we'll see.
I may get around to dismantling them tmro, and when I do I'll measure side by side.
Cheers, Martin
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If you ever have to take a complete carrier bearing out. I found that a steel rod of about 4'/1.3m long that just fits down the swing arm gets the job done with a few stout jabs downward with the U joint area firmly on a cement slab.
Tom
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If you ever have to take a complete carrier bearing out. I found that a steel rod of about 4'/1.3m long that just fits down the swing arm gets the job done with a few stout jabs downward with the U joint area firmly on a cement slab.
Tom
I'll be honest, I hope I never have to, but you never do know, so it's noted thank you. That is some big chunk of steel you're talking there though, no?
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What a pig of a job........
Yep.
Kudos for keeping on. I'm sure you can't wait until it's
back on the road and running like a top!
-Stretch
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Is that with no heat being used Charlie?
No heat used to remove the swingarm pivot bearings (or u-joint carrier bearing either, for that matter). I've only done Loopframe and early Tonti-frame Guzzis though.
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Some jobs are just a pain and that finger took a nasty hit. Good that your staying with it. Carbide burrs can cut into that race too and you should be able to find them for the Demel. Otherwise, I would consider pulling that swingarm to get a better shot at it. I like the ideas mentioned and working with the swingarm in hand just looks a better way to go. I know many people will weld a few beads across the inside of the race and that shrinks the race a bit to release easier. Easier to find a welder with part in hand.
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Yep.
Kudos for keeping on. I'm sure you can't wait until it's
back on the road and running like a top!
-Stretch
Thanks for the encouragement Stretch.
Yep, I'm really missing my ride soooooo much, I'm also reliant on my Guzzi to visit my parents who are both in their 90's and live 40 miles away :rolleyes:
No heat used to remove the swingarm pivot bearings (or u-joint carrier bearing either, for that matter). I've only done Loopframe and early Tonti-frame Guzzis though.
Ah cool. As far as I can see they use the same bearings as my '95 Cali.
On which point ,.. Is there an special spec to the swing arm bearings Charlie?
I gather it's a tapered roller bearing, original spec being 17mm i/d, 40mm o/d x 12mm depth, but on Gregory Bender's 'this old tractor' site he says ...
"The following physical dimensions are slightly thicker, but work just fine and are much easier to source than the original (thanks to Fred on the old Yahoo! Loopframe_Guzzi news group (which has now moved to Groups.io) for confirming the fitment).
Inside diameter: 17 mm
Outside diameter: 40 mm
Width: 13.25 mm.."
Which works out as SKF 30203j2
Do you know if this means the spacers on the outside of the swing arm bearings have to be thinned by 1.25mm to accommodate the wider bearing?
Or is there a simpler answer? I've seen prices for swing arm bearings ranging from nearly £90 each to just £15 for SKF versions, which i find very confusing :undecided:
Oh, I've just found a 9 piece slide hammer bearing puller kit second hand for £15 :grin:
I would consider pulling that swingarm to get a better shot at it. I know many people will weld a few beads across the inside of the race and that shrinks the race a bit to release easier.
Yes, if I had a welder that's exactly what I'd do. The swing arm is already pulled, it'd be literally impossible to do what I'm doing with it still attached to the bike. :huh:
.......
I got a chunk of the bearing out :rolleyes: , then ran out of cut off discs, better quality ones arriving today.
(https://i.ibb.co/TwG2FnR/20230831-195635-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TwG2FnR)
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On which point ,.. Is there an special spec to the swing arm bearings Charlie?
I gather it's a tapered roller bearing, original spec being 17mm i/d, 40mm o/d x 12mm depth, but on Gregory Bender's 'this old tractor' site he says ...
"The following physical dimensions are slightly thicker, but work just fine and are much easier to source than the original (thanks to Fred on the old Yahoo! Loopframe_Guzzi news group (which has now moved to Groups.io) for confirming the fitment).
Inside diameter: 17 mm
Outside diameter: 40 mm
Width: 13.25 mm.."
Which works out as SKF 30203j2
Do you know if this means the spacers on the outside of the swing arm bearings have to be thinned by 1.25mm to accommodate the wider bearing?
Or is there a simpler answer? I've seen prices for swing arm bearings ranging from nearly £90 each to just £15 for SKF versions, which i find very confusing :undecided:
I use the 30203 bearings without any modifications or issues. The pivot pins just won't thread in quite as much (barely noticeable).
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I use the 30303 bearings without any modifications or issues. The pivot pins just won't thread in quite as much (barely noticeable).
Ah fantastic, thanks for clearing that up.
Also, if I may, as it's an unsealed bearing, I'll need to replace the seals 30mm i/d x 40mm o/d x 7mm thickness. I see cheap ones, although listed as high quality at £2.50, and SKF seals of the same spec at £6.50
The main question I have though, is that they come in both single, or double, lip construction. Is there a preference in our particular application? . . . And do forgive my ignorance, but what stops the grease from leaking from the internal side of the s/arm bearings?
Having been intrigued, I realise now, when you said you've only done loop and early tonti's, that the v11 uses a different bearing arrangement altogether for the swing arm :thumb:
I'll try the conventional slide hammer puller rather than having at it with the dremel'ish tool :bow: :wink:
I'm just wondering if I can find a second hand bearing press kit going cheap now (strokes chin) :grin:
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Ah fantastic, thanks for clearing that up.
Also, if I may, as it's an unsealed bearing, I'll need to replace the seals 30mm i/d x 40mm o/d x 7mm thickness. I see cheap ones, although listed as high quality at £2.50, and SKF seals of the same spec at £6.50
The main question I have though, is that they come in both single, or double, lip construction. Is there a preference in our particular application? . . . And do forgive my ignorance, but what stops the grease from leaking from the internal side of the s/arm bearings?
Having been intrigued, I realise now, when you said you've only done loop and early tonti's, that the v11 uses a different bearing arrangement altogether for the swing arm :thumb:
I'll try the conventional slide hammer puller rather than having at it with the dremel'ish tool :bow: :wink:
I'm just wondering if I can find a second hand bearing press kit going cheap now (strokes chin) :grin:
Corrected my bearing number 30203, not 30303. The seals aren't under any pressure, so even the cheap seals will do the job. Single lip seals are all that's necessary. I do like to polish the o.d. of the spacer they seal on, so it's clean and shiny.
On the driveshaft side, the back/internal side is blanked off by the round section the u/j runs inside. On the left side it's open into the crossmember of the swingarm (although that too ends at the round section the u/j runs inside of), so a little extra grease isn't a bad idea. I spray the inside of that tube with a little chain lube to ward off rust.
AFAIK, the 1100s use the same bearing arrangement as the earlier models.
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Corrected my bearing number 30203, not 30303. The seals aren't under any pressure, so even the cheap seals will do the job. Single lip seals are all that's necessary. I do like to polish the o.d. of the spacer they seal on, so it's clean and shiny.
On the driveshaft side, the back/internal side is blanked off by the round section the u/j runs inside. On the left side it's open into the crossmember of the swingarm (although that too ends at the round section the u/j runs inside of), so a little extra grease isn't a bad idea. I spray the inside of that tube with a little chain lube to ward off rust.
AFAIK, the 1100s use the same bearing arrangement as the earlier models.
Yes, I got the number thing ok :wink:
Cool re seals. . . . There's no price difference between price on single or double lip seals, they do both versions in the cheaper and more expensive versions, I perhaps didn't make that clear.
You know, that's one thing I noticed, the inside mating surface of the spacers on both sides were remarkably clean and shiny. I wonder if I'm the second owner to take your good advice :grin: . . . It would have been a while ago, I've had my bike 9yrs now.
That makes sense on lubing up the swing arm blind tube, I'll follow up with that.
Whilst on lube, the splines on the drive train, I noticed you were impressed with a Wurst, I think, grease, but it doesn't seem to be available now, least not in the UK. I've come across some Castrol optimol white grease, that seems to be recommended for the BM's spline greasing, am I correct to assume that'll be suffice for mine?
And would you happen to be familiar with the internal/external diameters of the tube required to make a makeshift tool to hold the U/J in a straight line when pressing into the carrier bearing? I saw it somewhere and can't for the life of me find it again.
I got some good quality cut off discs, and beginning to realise, that despite how impressed I was as a novice with the cheap ones that came with the tool, that they're really pretty poor. So hopefully I'll finally get the rest of that sodding carrier bearing removed today.
I was thinking I might need to get the new carrier bearing pressed in at a shop, as I've had no joy finding a cheap second hand bargain bearing press kit :rolleyes: :smiley:
Thanks for enduring the saga of my rear end, so to speak :laugh:, and for the tips and technical specs etc, it's very much appreciated.
Cheer, Martin :boozing:
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Your quickly shedding your novice standing into expertise by entering the fight with only sheer determination on your side…
Go man, go! I’m pulling for you!
:popcorn:
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Your quickly shedding your novice standing into expertise by entering the fight with only sheer determination on your side…
Go man, go! I’m pulling for you!
:popcorn:
Ah man, thank you, that's so good to hear :thumb:
I swung from feeling confident that I'm getting the hang of tackling what seemed like the impossible, to a couple of occasions where I felt quite demoralised and a bit useless tbh. However, when I got to feeling that, I had words with myself and quickly got my thinking back on track.
I feel confident that if it can be done, then I will get it done, but only due to some exemplary assistance and encouragement on this thread.
The determination, or gumption as brilliantly described in one of my favourite passages from Robert M Pirsig's book Zen, And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance, relating to it as the vital ingredient in motorcycle repairs and maintenance. ... Of course, there is a lot to be said for such gumption working in a good well equipped workshop :rolleyes: But sometimes you're on the roadside, or in my case, my back yard.
“If you’re going to repair a motorcycle, an adequate supply of gumption is the first and most important tool. If you haven’t got that you might as well gather up all the other tools and put them away, because they won’t do you any good.
Gumption is the psychic gasoline that keeps the whole thing going. If you haven’t got it, there’s no way the motorcycle can possibly be fixed. But if you have got it and know how to keep it, there’s absolutely no way in this whole world that motorcycle can keep from getting fixed. It’s bound to happen. Therefore the thing that must be monitored at all times and preserved before anything else is the gumption.”
I love that little book, little gems of philosophy applied to motorcycle maintenance and life in general. A brilliant idea for a book, exceedingly well written. I'm sure many of you know it well :smiley:
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For installing the carrier bearing.....
A steel tube of the correct size for the OD of the carrier bearing and a good size hammer would be optimal. Lacking that, a suitable block of wood or metal to EVENLY drive the bearing down until flush with the recess would be a big help. Then take a metal punch, not a little center punch like punch, but something with a decent tip on it. Or even a steel rod about 1/2" diameter to drive the edge of the bearing fully down so that the clip will fit into it's slot. Tap the bearing once or twice at 12 O'clock, then 6, then 3, then 9. Repeat as needed.
Wurth 5th Wheel Grease was the choice for spline lube. Especially for the wheel to rear end splines where you don't want it to fling off. For the U joint and drive shaft to rear end, you can use any decent thick grease. If you can get a spline grease for BMW at a reasonable price, that would be nice to use. I think Lucas Red and Sticky was also recommended?
Keep at it!!!!!
Tom
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No laughing now, the outer race is still in the swing arm, and that's after a good few hours.
However, progress was made. That bearing has taken so much effort to break it up. I'd made so many cuts with a much better quality dremel cutting disc, and using chisels, all I managed to do, I think is ram the race firmer in place.
To be fair, I was a bit wary of hitting the chisel too hard due to whacking my thumb the other day, and again today, but not so badly. The chisels I have are a bit short so it means whacking it whilst holding the chisel literally in the opening, I'd have been better if it was 12 inches (she said), with a hand guard, lol.
Anyway, yes progress :boozing:
It was after midnight when I finally got the bearing to shift a bit, and a chunk where I must have made a thousand cuts, broke off under the pressure of a pry bar, claws behind, pulling towards myself. The race can be moved back and forth, and all that's holding the race from being pulled out, is the lip that holds the circlip in, in the main area where it's been remoulded by the flailing U/J, flattening it out to where it's become wider, so it's now doing the job of the circlip and retaining the bearing. I've marked the area in the photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/2Kcrdd4/20230903-002014-8a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Kcrdd4)
I knew I was going to have to somehow re-groove the circlip slot, that was a nightmare to remove, or at least I thought it was a nightmare, until I tackled this carrier bearing :wink: :laugh:
It was too late after midnight to get the dremel going again, people sleeping etc, so today, I'll grind back the circlip retaining lip just enough so that the bearing race FINALLY pops out.
I really can't imagine a tougher job, considering my lack of workshop and tools of choice, working with something so stubborn, so deeply recessed. I found it hard to see what I was doing in there, sparks flying, and despite employing a dental mirror, much of the cutting had to be done by feeling your tool in the correct groove, like teenagers fumbling in the dark for the first time :angel:, and although it's probably not quite as exciting, it probably balances out in sense of achievement hahaha :azn:
I now have aches and pains where I'm not used to such sensations, hands, wrists, neck etc :weiner:, but hopefully, that'll be the harsh side of this repair work finished.
Apart from the swing arm bearings and seals, which will hopefully arrive on Tuesday, I have all I need to complete the job.
You can probably see, I made quite a mess of the swing arm's mating surface for the bearing, where I was cutting away thinking I couldn't be deep enough, as I couldn't figure out why the cuts were not helping. I'm a bit disappointed with myself because of this, but it's all a part of learning I guess.
(https://i.ibb.co/G0YwMJN/20230903-003011-1a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G0YwMJN)
It'll need a bit of tidying up, but hopefully it won't affect the bearing's hold in its seat. I'll use some bearing goo to fill the grooves.
So anyway, the bearing will be removed today, for certain, and the second hand blind hole slide hammer puller kit arrived yesterday, so all being well I'll remove the swing arm, and rear wheel bearings today too.
......
For installing the carrier bearing.....
Keep at it!!!!!
Tom
That's great, thanks Tom.
I've been hunting around for something suitable to use to press the carrier bearing home, the best I've come up with so far, is a a metal grinder, not the workshop tool type, it is the perfect size. The pipe for the u/j though, I'll have to get my thinking cap on :wink:
Yeah the castrol optimol white paste varies in price from around £18 per 100ml tube, down to £8 for 3x 100ml tubes :huh:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325765520906?hash=item4bd9235e0a:g:XyUAAOSwJcNk0p~8&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4F5lxxnBH%2BAKnanLJsik%2F2K9%2Bgdj7lJTH6RH15k7SZwflM5aP949TbBvHdVTZhgiB7z8Nhxq7uo7Tog%2BHPJZQ2r%2FHe%2FN9dfYvUHu5c2c7xbcnzW0B3uTsjlcu0e8t0KH1c8fBNo9Tcs8LUi3fVCoa3sad%2FxmkXZ79XAdeYSYQV8NMT9HQJiuvi6XB0CxJZoW62zKekFTB%2Fyg19IUMupHclW5dO4LgBGxIRznGepgJiY3i9C59b5WJ7iJ554MiumHkHqMUdiujKfuJni1%2Bxu%2BHIu%2BS29XV5pr35SwPkD1%2F%2F1s%7Ctkp%3ABFBMwtyzwMti
Right oh, I'm off to remove this bearing race :thumb:
-
Check your sockets IO.
One of them will be a suitable diameter if you have your lucky pants on
-
Check your sockets IO.
One of them will be a suitable diameter if you have your lucky pants on
Thanks Tris, but darn it, my lucky pants are in the wash :rolleyes: :wink:
I don't have any sockets big enough to press the swing arm, or wheel bearings, never mind for the 62mm O/D carrier bearing.
The only time I've used sockets that size was when I worked on a farm for a few years in my late teens/early 20's.
I wonder if a local garage/engineering firm might have something I can borrow, if I leave a deposit with them . . . . Mmmm? :wink:
-
As they say, "every picture tells a story" :grin: :boozing:
(https://i.ibb.co/dK4Dy0d/20230903-200204-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dK4Dy0d)
-
:thumb: :thumb:
Tom
-
I always plan out what I'm going to do, think it through, and despite, or perhaps because, my mechanical skills leave a bit to
be desired, I try and think of any pitfalls that might occur.
So I always check out the exploded view diagrams of anything I'm dealing with, and then if anything is confusing me, I can look into it,
ask questions etc. . . . Well one can try, and it's definitely a good approach for anyone like me who doesn't already have a deep
understanding. However, it ain't foolproof :rolleyes:
Thanks to Charlie for making me consider the blind hole slide hammer bearing puller. What a great tool it is, and even for the new
asking price of £25- £30 it's a bargain, and to find one used but perfect condition for £15, better still.
So I pulled the first swing arm roller bearing, the drive shaft side. A few taps to free it and a few more to drive it out of the blind hole,
well that was worth £15 on its own.
Ah but then .... The other side, having first removed the oil seal and inner race and rollers, I inserted the collet, screwed on the slide hammer,
and began whacking away, expecting the same result.
No way, it just wouldn't budge at all. That's strange I thought to myself, and kept whacking some more, and some more, and some more. I rapped
my knuckle on the slide hammer's T-handle, which confirmed to me in an instant that I was whacking it hard enough :angry: :laugh:
I kept checking the depth of the bearing from above, I thought I'd felt it give a bit, but sure enough, it wasn't being forced out of its hole at all,
staying exactly where it was.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZXj9BP9/20230904-190418-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZXj9BP9)
Time to sit and ponder this, partly cos I was knackered, and partly because something just didn't feel right somehow. It didn't look like it had
suffered from corrosion, and I couldn't figure it out.
So I sat down for a different perspective, and man, that's just what I got, wtf?
(https://i.ibb.co/fdbKfc2/20230904-190135-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fdbKfc2)
"Hey, referee!", the exploded diagram did not show that there's a pressed in sleeve on the disc brake side of the swing arm, that seats the
bearing :huh: :undecided:
One question I have is as to whether this is standard from manufacture, or is it the result of a previous repair?
Either way, I figure I've tightened the collet too far into the blind hole, and grabbed the rear of the sleeve, and as a result, put zero pressure
on the bearing, and instead I was pulling the frickin' frame apart. . . . However, if that ain't a testament to the ability of the slide hammer blind hole
puller, I don't know what is :wink:
One thing I noticed, is that the outer edge of this sleeve looks quite battered and bruised, it's not something I've done (for once :rolleyes:),
and wondering how that might have come to be? . . . Maybe someone has done the same in the past, and been rough reinserting it? . . .
Or is this a result of riding over time with damaged bearings. It looks as if there are markings not just on the outer edge, but on the inside of
the recess too.
(https://i.ibb.co/4JxMtgY/20230904-190239-1-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4JxMtgY)
I'd have thought, as it's not shown in the exploded diagram of the swing arm, that if this was a standard Guzzi fitment, it'd be tack welded
in place, but it clearly isn't, and I guess it's not something that could work free under normal riding conditions, being trapped in by the swing arm.
I'll pop a piece of wood over the top and see about whacking it back in, and relocating the collet in the correct place, and try again.
Any ideas, or answers to my puzzlement?
Cheers, Martizzug
-
I always plan out what I'm going to do, think it through, and despite, or perhaps because, my mechanical skills leave a bit to
be desired, I try and think of any pitfalls that might occur.
So I always check out the exploded view diagrams of anything I'm dealing with, and then if anything is confusing me, I can look into it,
ask questions etc. . . . Well one can try, and it's definitely a good approach for anyone like me who doesn't already have a deep
understanding. However, it ain't foolproof :rolleyes:
Thanks to Charlie for making me consider the blind hole slide hammer bearing puller. What a great tool it is, and even for the new
asking price of £25- £30 it's a bargain, and to find one used but perfect condition for £15, better still.
So I pulled the first swing arm roller bearing, the drive shaft side. A few taps to free it and a few more to drive it out of the blind hole,
well that was worth £15 on its own.
Ah but then .... The other side, having first removed the oil seal and inner race and rollers, I inserted the collet, screwed on the slide hammer,
and began whacking away, expecting the same result.
No way, it just wouldn't budge at all. That's strange I thought to myself, and kept whacking some more, and some more, and some more. I rapped
my knuckle on the slide hammer's T-handle, which confirmed to me in an instant that I was whacking it hard enough :angry: :laugh:
I kept checking the depth of the bearing from above, I thought I'd felt it give a bit, but sure enough, it wasn't being forced out of its hole at all,
staying exactly where it was.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZXj9BP9/20230904-190418-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZXj9BP9)
Time to sit and ponder this, partly cos I was knackered, and partly because something just didn't feel right somehow. It didn't look like it had
suffered from corrosion, and I couldn't figure it out.
So I sat down for a different perspective, and man, that's just what I got, wtf?
(https://i.ibb.co/fdbKfc2/20230904-190135-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fdbKfc2)
"Hey, referee!", the exploded diagram did not show that there's a pressed in sleeve on the disc brake side of the swing arm, that seats the
bearing :huh: :undecided:
One question I have is as to whether this is standard from manufacture, or is it the result of a previous repair?
Either way, I figure I've tightened the collet too far into the blind hole, and grabbed the rear of the sleeve, and as a result, put zero pressure
on the bearing, and instead I was pulling the frickin' frame apart. . . . However, if that ain't a testament to the ability of the slide hammer blind hole
puller, I don't know what is :wink:
One thing I noticed, is that the outer edge of this sleeve looks quite battered and bruised, it's not something I've done (for once :rolleyes:),
and wondering how that might have come to be? . . . Maybe someone has done the same in the past, and been rough reinserting it? . . .
Or is this a result of riding over time with damaged bearings. It looks as if there are markings not just on the outer edge, but on the inside of
the recess too.
(https://i.ibb.co/4JxMtgY/20230904-190239-1-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4JxMtgY)
I'd have thought, as it's not shown in the exploded diagram of the swing arm, that if this was a standard Guzzi fitment, it'd be tack welded
in place, but it clearly isn't, and I guess it's not something that could work free under normal riding conditions, being trapped in by the swing arm.
I'll pop a piece of wood over the top and see about whacking it back in, and relocating the collet in the correct place, and try again.
Any ideas, or answers to my puzzlement?
Cheers, Martizzug
That's the way they're made on that side. Sometimes the outer race comes out, sometimes the whole thing.
If you have an appropriately sized bearing driver, socket, tube, etc., drive the outer race out of that sleeve before reinserting it into the swingarm.
If you put it back in with the outer race still in it, the same thing will happen again.
-
That's the way they're made on that side. Sometimes the outer race comes out, sometimes the whole thing.
If you have an appropriately sized bearing driver, socket, tube, etc., drive the outer race out of that sleeve before reinserting it into the swingarm.
If you put it back in with the outer race still in it, the same thing will happen again.
Ah thanks for that tip, I would have done exactly that :wink:
I have universal exhaust shims, one of which is a perfect fit for pressing the new ones in, providing it's strong enough to do so without buckling
under the pressure.
(https://i.ibb.co/y6S5Sm3/20230905-041735-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6S5Sm3)
share image (https://imgbb.com/)
But from the other end I haven't been able to find something to fit to push/drive it out. The photo somehow shows the visible lip of the outer race
to be more generous than it appears by eye, but measured with vernier callipers the sleeve's inside end diameter is 32.8mm and the outer race inside diameter there is 31.1mm.
This leaves only 1.7mm total showing, a rim of 0.85mm, which means finding something very precise to be small enough to fit through the rear of
the sleeve, yet big enough to grab the race.
(https://i.ibb.co/7KWGyNB/20230905-055015-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7KWGyNB)
Is this what you had in mind Charlie, or have I perhaps lost some metal to excessive wear in the bearing.
Is it a complete no, no, to carefully tipetty tap it out with a punch at 12, 6, 3, 9 repeated til necessary?
Also, I assume the bearing should be fully home to the bottom of the sleeve when I refit? There's a gap showing in this photo, but that's probably down to me
shifting it a bit before the sleeve started to move.
(https://i.ibb.co/M8mWwLG/20230905-054930-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M8mWwLG)
................... .
I decided on ordering some of the Lucas Red n Tacky grease for the splines, after a youtube video left me unimpressed with the white Castrol Optimol, as not
much had stayed on the splines of the guys bmw GS1200.
I've noticed that my bike had been lubed with red grease, and although it had pretty much gone from the drive shaft area, it being such a bad mess, there were
still good traces of it where the splines mated up to the U/J's, which were not stuck together at all, and in fairly good condition. Also the teeth connecting the
rear wheel to the final drive box were still coated in the stuff, albeit a bit on the dry side, and again the teeth seem in a good state.
I thought the wheel bearing on the bevel box side looked a rusty coloured, til I realised it was residue of red grease, again, a bit dried up.
If the Red n Tacky can still be doing some good after being neglected so long, I hardly need any convincing, and I certainly won't be neglecting this vital
maintenance again :violent1: :rolleyes:
I also ordered a new rubber boot to cover the u/j after all. Although there's no signs of any tears etc, it does feel like it's stiffer and less supple than it once was. I
figured I should change it whilst I've got it apart, and could easily imagine ripping a hole during the reinstall procedure, pulling it back to line up and connect the u/j
to the gearbox output shaft, and I certainly don't want to be inviting moisture into the driveshaft housing.
Mind you, it's still quite an impressive decision for a man who's prepared to use gaffa tape for his seat cover :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/jgDYyQX/20220224-171850a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jgDYyQX)
I took the swing arm, the swing arm drive shaft and the u/j to the local garage last night, and jet washed all the crud out of the tube that holds the driveshaft. I'm
not sure how to treat the inside of the housing, perhaps a squirt of chain lube as suggested by Charlie above, for the inside of twing arm blind tube section behind the
disc brake side swing arm bearing.
Looking in there last night it looks like someone has done the same in there, but with red grease, in the past. and it all looks good inside.
The bearings in both sides were well worn, and the red grease looked to be a bit dry, but they didn't look to have suffered water damage.
So yes, more red grease and a new gaiter are going to be deployed.
I've ordered some more 80-90 oil for the gear box and bevel box too. I think it was Pete Roper that I'd noticed had mentioned in a transmission oil thread that only the
early Guzzi's required a moly additive in the final drive. I don't know the context of what was meant by 'early' though, so I'm unsure if that covered my bike's era, a '95 model. It certainly
says in the manual to add 20mls moly as part of the 250ml total, but I know lubricant technology has probably come a long way since then.
Is there any good info on there being a good case for modern lubricant technology being better, thus avoiding the requirement, or is it just one of those topics with a myriad of varying opinions?
-
Ah thanks for that tip, I would have done exactly that :wink:
I have universal exhaust shims, one of which is a perfect fit for pressing the new ones in, providing it's strong enough to do so without buckling
under the pressure.
(https://i.ibb.co/y6S5Sm3/20230905-041735-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6S5Sm3)
share image (https://imgbb.com/)
But from the other end I haven't been able to find something to fit to push/drive it out. The photo somehow shows the visible lip of the outer race
to be more generous than it appears by eye, but measured with vernier callipers the sleeve's inside end diameter is 32.8mm and the outer race inside diameter there is 31.1mm.
This leaves only 1.7mm total showing, a rim of 0.85mm, which means finding something very precise to be small enough to fit through the rear of
the sleeve, yet big enough to grab the race.
(https://i.ibb.co/7KWGyNB/20230905-055015-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7KWGyNB)
Is this what you had in mind Charlie, or have I perhaps lost some metal to excessive wear in the bearing.
Is it a complete no, no, to carefully tipetty tap it out with a punch at 12, 6, 3, 9 repeated til necessary?
Also, I assume the bearing should be fully home to the bottom of the sleeve when I refit? There's a gap showing in this photo, but that's probably down to me
shifting it a bit before the sleeve started to move.
(https://i.ibb.co/M8mWwLG/20230905-054930-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M8mWwLG)
Yes, you can drive it out with a punch. Yes, it should be fully home when installing. An old outer race with the o.d. ground down slightly makes a good improvised driver.
-
Yes, you can drive it out with a punch.
Ah cool :thumb: Yes, it should be fully home when installing. An old outer race with the o.d. ground down slightly makes a good improvised driver.
Ah, of course, and I have the means to do that. Thanks again
A guy, a fellow biker, I know a few house up the street, offered to take me, and my swing arm, to see his mechanic friend who has a local garage with a hydraulic press, and said he can press the carrier bearing in for me, and as a favour to his mate too, the guy up the road. So that's that one sorted out, but first I want to treat the rust in the swing arm drive side, and I'm awaiting some bearing filler adhesive, but anyway, that's one headache resolved :cool:
Time to tackle the u/j crosses next I think :smiley:
-
No Moly needed with GL-5 gear oil from what I have read.
Tom
-
Ah cool :thumb:
Ah, of course, and I have the means to do that. Thanks again
A guy, a fellow biker, I know a few house up the street, offered to take me, and my swing arm, to see his mechanic friend who has a local garage with a hydraulic press, and said he can press the carrier bearing in for me, and as a favour to his mate too, the guy up the road. So that's that one sorted out, but first I want to treat the rust in the swing arm drive side, and I'm awaiting some bearing filler adhesive, but anyway, that's one headache resolved :cool:
Time to tackle the u/j crosses next I think :smiley:
I think if you have a mate with a mate who has a hydraulic press, for a case of beer, I think I'd ask him to look at the UJs too :wink:
-
No Moly needed with GL-5 gear oil from what I have read.
Tom
Thanks Tom, I checked that out and it seems obvious that it's correct, thanks.
I realise a problem with my standard approach to researching such things, where I search for "Which type is best" or "do modern lubricants need moly additive in the rear drive box on a Guzzi", and all that does, as a rule, is take you to forum posts with lengthy arguments of conflicting views.
It's frustrating when you're just looking for a definitive answer. I really appreciate geeks, it's all the fake, or would be, geeks that trouble me :violent1: :grin:
The red n sticky grease from Lucas, that I was intending on getting for lubing the splines etc, is a no go after all. The only supplier advertising it in the UK, from what I can find, state that there are considerable delays due to a fire at the Lucas plant.
So I've gone for a tube of Granville moly grease for CV joints, u/j's etc, and hopefully that'll do the trick. I'll check on how it's fairing after 2k miles or so.
I think if you have a mate with a mate who has a hydraulic press, for a case of beer, I think I'd ask him to look at the UJs too :wink:
Well, call me a sucker for punishment, but I really fancy changing the U/J crosses out myself :whip2: :laugh:
Although it might be an idea to get him to press the U/j into the carrier bearing once it's installed, but again, if I can pick up a tube to sleeve it, I should be able to do it really. I know it's a tight fit, but not so tight it can't be done without messing the U/j or inner race of the carrier bearing. (Says he :rolleyes: )
I only have a couple of large wood working vices, and I tried pressing them out, with an appropriate socket to fit in the hole, and a larger one on the other side, but man, I couldn't get them to budge a bit. I was kind of concerned I might damage the yokes, I assume they're cast, and worried they might crack.
So I looked on good 'ole youtube for 'stubborn u/j's', and up popped a load of videos on how to deal with them without a press, mostly using the same socket trick and whacking the bejesus out of them with a hammer. Nobody seemed to worry about the yokes breaKing, and thinking about it, they are designed to take a lot of pressure.
So I had a go with the hammer treatment, and got them all shifting a bit in each direction. They're bloody tight though, so gave them a thorough soaking with WD40, and tried again, with not much success.
I feel I must be missing something obvious, though I can't for the life of me figure out what. With a hammer, socket, and some serious force, I've got them moving ok, and I seem to have driven them as far as I can, but it's not enough to push the end I'm hitting through the yoke, and certainly not enough at the other end to grab the opposite cap to pull it off.
The inner cast cross is now up against the yoke, so I can't see how it can be moved any further. Obviously I realise it must be physically possible, hence me feeling I'm missing something.
So I checked youtube again. A lot of those in the videos look in a lot worse state than mine, but when searching for problematic u/j's I see there are pullers for the job, and they need impact drivers to wind them in.
It's not as if mine look much on the corroded side though, they look quite shiney where they've been exposed.
I admit, I lost my composure somewhat today :thewife:
I really don't know which applies here "A lesser man would have given up by now" or "A better man would know when he's beat".
Although I'm not against challenge, not much seems to have gone to plan. It always looks so straight forward in how to videos :rolleyes:. Maybe, as above with searching for 'which is the best oil to use' I should adjust my 'how to' video searches to 'problems with doing', or 'worst case scenarios', and then I'd perhaps go at it with a more realistic approach.
I dunno, I'm just a bit down on myself, and my bike at the mo. :embarrassed:
I'll probably take them to the garage mechanic tmro along with the swing arm, and see if he can sort them. I'd be better paying a few quid just to save me from going completely nuts, but at the same time it feels a bit like giving in at this stage, stupid as that may be.
It just doesn't seem like the u/j servicing is rocket science, but pretty straight forward, especially compared to the corroded carrier bearing outer race, stuck in a deep recess, unable to actually see what you're doing. That seemed impossible to me at times, but the u/j, I can't actually see or visualise what, and where the problem lies.
My mind is putting a call out to the computational brain "Gumption, calling all gumption, report for duty immediately" :boxing:
Here's the side I'm pushing through, though I've gone back and forth and applied WD40 each time, followed by the view from the other side
(https://i.ibb.co/Ryx5H1j/20230907-214752-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ryx5H1j)
(https://i.ibb.co/VJWXHGg/20230907-214915-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VJWXHGg)
Again of the side I'm hammering it through, showing the distance of travel achieved
(https://i.ibb.co/VxKxSTm/20230907-220919-1-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxKxSTm)
But on the other side, as you can see here, it can't physically go any further, as one yoke has met up with the other, which leaves me wondering what more a hydraulic press can do
(https://i.ibb.co/525npKw/20230907-220856-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/525npKw)
Where am I getting things wrong here guys?
................... ...........
I did at least manage with a punch, to drive the swing arm bearing outer race from its sleeve, but if it was videoed, you'd all be in stitches laughing. You wouldn't believe it, but I score highly in an IQ test, although I've never really accepted an iq test as being an adequate form of rating intelligence, and this a very good example of why that is. When I'd driven the race quite a way without too much struggle after initially getting it going from its tight spot, I was tapping away good clunks on the punch, wondering why the bloody thing wouldn't drop out . . . until it dawned on me that it had gone as far as the surface I had the sleeve placed upon, and couldn't come out unless I gave it space to drop out beneath :violent1: . . . Really, ffs!! :huh: Hey and don't feel bad for laughing at me, I was laughing at myself :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: When you can't be a source of inspiration, being a source of humour is no bad thing :wink:
(https://i.ibb.co/F8tGt1S/20230907-214949-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F8tGt1S)
So you can see what you're working with in attempting to help me out here, hahaha, hopefully though, like me, some of you like a challenge :grin: :bow:
It's quite grotty in there, so I'll use the wire brush on the dremel tool, and some rust remover, and a thin smear of grease all around it before fitting it back into the frame and pressing the new bearing in.
(https://i.ibb.co/jkbRWp3/20230907-215056-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkbRWp3)
-
Ok, so I lied when I said I only had a couple of large woodworking vices :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/rHk4QwQ/20230907-214828-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rHk4QwQ)
-
Yes I was LMAO at some of your comments :evil: Your doing VERY good :thumb: Don't be down on yourself. Your doing the right thing. Try to figure it out,
if you can't, ask questions!
Now for the cross hitting the joint. In the foggy area of my brain, I seem to remember this is an issue of getting the U joints out.
Many moons ago I think I tried and had the same issue.
I also seem to remember that you would either, grab the sticking out cap in a vice and carefully whack away, twist it until it came out. OR.. drill a
hole in the cap and thread it or self taping screw and use a puller or the vice.
Maybe Charlie had the solution for this??
You could also try a small punch from the inside to get the cap to come out. Provided that you have it held so the cap will come out, like with a
socket, not laying flat on the table. :evil: :evil:
Tom
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I also seem to remember that you would either, grab the sticking out cap in a vice and carefully whack away, twist it until it came out. OR.. drill a
hole in the cap and thread it or self taping screw and use a puller or the vice.
Maybe Charlie had the solution for this??
That's what I do.
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Thanks Charlie :thumb:
Tom
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You could also try a small punch from the inside to get the cap to come out. Provided that you have it held so the cap will come out, like with a
socket, not laying flat on the table. :evil: :evil:
Tom
Wah-ha-ha, no, I'd hope that one is in the bag now :rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh:
Now for the cross hitting the joint. In the foggy area of my brain, I seem to remember this is an issue of getting the U joints out.
Many moons ago I think I tried and had the same issue.
I also seem to remember that you would either, grab the sticking out cap in a vice and carefully whack away, twist it until it came out. OR.. drill a
hole in the cap and thread it or self taping screw and use a puller or the vice.
Tom
That's what I do.
Thanks guys, and thanks for the encouragement Tom, although mmm :huh:. . . . maybe you are just thinking "this'll be good for a laugh" :evil: :evil: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I'd seen the vice and tapping with the hammer technique on Gregor bender's site, but I thought I'd need more to grab on to have any chance of pulling them out.
Even with the reasonable precision of my little jeweler's anvil vice, there was little to grip onto, and bashing it , pulling and twisting by hand would see it lose its grip.
Of course, not having the vice fixed to a bench doesn't help any, and maybe sharp but not heavy taps with a hammer when it's fixed rigidly, would do the trick here.
If not, I'll give the largest self tapper I can find at a local hardware store a try, as you suggest.
................... .......
I've only just discovered this. It's so far in the recess, and my eyes are not that great close up, and only noticed by taking a photo an examining it.
I've heard of the u/j spinning on the internal race before, but this one has been spinning the outer race, and the scoring looks really quite bad to me.
(https://i.ibb.co/FJ1ydgX/20230908-040006-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FJ1ydgX)
Although, at least it's not as bad as the carnage I caused with the cut off discs :rolleyes:, but at least that's in just the one area.
(https://i.ibb.co/0hXyMzS/20230908-035952-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0hXyMzS)
The outer race that I removed looked relatively smooth to my close up vision and to my guitar playing callused fingertips, but again with the benefit of closer photographic inspection (how did we ever manage without mobile phones).
(https://i.ibb.co/r5MdwRj/20230908-051226-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r5MdwRj)
It's definitely done some spinning. I can't imagine how much load it must've been under to spin around like that, the bearing was a super tight fit when it came to removing it. Maybe it jammed it all up as the bearing gave in, before spitting all it's ball bearings out?
(https://i.ibb.co/j5MnDJw/20230908-051404-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j5MnDJw)
I know it's not easy via photographs, but can you tell if this is still actually going to be serviceable?
Seeing the state of it has worried me, because of course, I won't be able to inspect it until next I pull the swing arm again, and even then, it'd probably be difficult to
I have bought some Loctite 641 bearing set retainer, but wondering if I'm expecting too much of the swing arm housing's mating surface condition and the retainer glue, or whether, so long as the bearing is a tight fit and functioning in good order, and no water gets in there etc, that it will stick to its path of least resistance and run on the ball bearings as designed?
Sorry to be such a pain in the ass guys
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Just thinking out loud here really, but you can see in the first of the photos in the last post, that the circlip groove looks like it's going to need some work to be persuaded to accept the new one. I wonder if it might be worth thinking about doing the retaining set screw mod, as per later models may be a better option. That'll no doubt require a bench drill and a welder, and I guess that'd need to be done before the bearing is fitted in place.
Well, I'm going to the workshop in 4 hours or so, so I'd better see if I can clean the circlip groove out first, as metal grindings after the bearing is pressed in aren't going to be a good thing.
Nobody ever said life would be straight forward
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Beating the cross back and forth a couple of times usually lets you get a grip on the cap and pull it out. Without a shop and tools you are still ahead of most people at this point. Once you get everything apart the next big bridge to cross will be getting the new cross bearing caps in without displacing the needle bearing as you tap the caps in. I use a press and hedge by pushing the first cap in as far as possible with the new cross in. When you do the other side this way the cross can engage the other cap a bit to hold all the needle bearing in place. Once the second cap is engaged and pressed on the cross, the three pieces can be centered. If the circlip groove is damaged washers can be fitted over the caps and tack welded. It's a procedure used on BMW staked original joints that are serviced.
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I'm redoing U-Joints on the Ural. Stumbled across this video.
Thought it rather neat and somewhat applicable to your project.
What I most enjoyed was the "no nonsense" and workman like manner in which it progresses.
No fluff, just getting it done.
https://youtu.be/QnI45lwHXAs?feature=shared
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Beating the cross back and forth a couple of times usually lets you get a grip on the cap and pull it out. Without a shop and tools you are still ahead of most people at this point. Once you get everything apart the next big bridge to cross will be getting the new cross bearing caps in without displacing the needle bearing as you tap the caps in. I use a press and hedge by pushing the first cap in as far as possible with the new cross in. When you do the other side this way the cross can engage the other cap a bit to hold all the needle bearing in place. Once the second cap is engaged and pressed on the cross, the three pieces can be centered. If the circlip groove is damaged washers can be fitted over the caps and tack welded. It's a procedure used on BMW staked original joints that are serviced.
Thanks for the supportive encouragement Mike, it does go a long way, and for your suggestions and words of advice.
I'm redoing U-Joints on the Ural. Stumbled across this video.
Thought it rather neat and somewhat applicable to your project.
What I most enjoyed was the "no nonsense" and workman like manner in which it progresses.
No fluff, just getting it done.
https://youtu.be/QnI45lwHXAs?feature=shared
Haha, I wouldn't get too carried away with his technique, where he's tapping the yoke with a hammer in one hand, whilst the cap just pops out into his hand. I imagine that's a bit of a magic trick from the trade, and a good one at that, he even flips his circlip plyers like a gunslinger would his six shooter, but he is doing all that with u/j's that haven't seen any service. To imagine that's going to happen with any drive that's done some service, is a bridge too far.
I think a lot of the videos of bigger u'j's off chevvies or jeeps etc, although they look bigger and tougher, they look considerably easier than the small ones such as on the Guzzi, there's more room to play with and they always seem to get enough of the caps come through to get a really good hold on with something.
I don't know the Ural set up, but if it's a serious struggle, after my experience today, I'd highly recommend the use of an angle grinder . . . read on :grin:
I've had an amazingly productive day :afro:
I gave the swing arm carrier bearing seating a good wire brushing with a rotary tool brass brush and it came up looking and feeling a lot more respectable than it did. . . . . Which is just as well, as I managed to forget to use the loctite bearing retaining compound, doh! Yep, I fudging did!
We went to my mate's friends workshop, but he was having the day off, but the guys said we could use their press and tools if we could manage it ourselves.
It was a good experience to use a good quality, floor standing, hydraulic press. What a piece of kit! Anyway, in all the excitement, figuring out how to use it, and tracking down a perfect fit socket amongst a huge array of tool trays and cabinets, I managed to simply forget about using the loctite, until it was more than three quarters pressed in place, and then a mini sonic boom as the bearing seated fully home.
(https://i.ibb.co/GtMt0cG/20230908-141545-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GtMt0cG)
It's fairly typical of someone with adhd, and many other neurodivergent types. So many thoughts are jumping around all at once, some of them get lost in the distraction. They always tend to come back to mind, but not very helpful when too late. It's no excuse though, I'm old enough to realise that writing down a list of what I'm doing would ensure that doesn't happen, but of course, I simply forget to do that too :rolleyes:
The bearing seemed like a positive good tight fit though, so i'm assuming if all else is working properly, then it should operate and function as designed. . . Blimey, it that doesn't show how much difference a positive, or negative day, can affect how you perceive things.
The workshop had a great pair of heavy duty circlip pliers that made light work of handling the meaty carrier bearing circlip, and more to the point, it slotted and snapped into place perfectly.
So that's the carrier bearing sorted. We had a go at the u/j crosses on the press too, but sure enough, they had already gone to the full possible extent of their travel.
One of the guys took a very quick look, but was so busy, I didn't want to take advantage of their hospitality, so left it at that. Marcin, my Polish mate up the road, drove us back home, and I was feeling well chuffed.
45 minutes later, he's ringing me. He said "I'm at your door, there'd something I need to see. I went down, let him in. His mind had been whirring away, and couldn't stop thinking about the puzzle of getting the crosses out of the U/j.
Next minute I said I'd seen a vid where they chiselled them off the end. So we both gave it a go. Eventually, it did work, but the thought of doing another seven of those, pounding away with a hammer and chisel, in the summer heat, really didn't appeal to either of us.
Marcin said, why don't we cut the little f*****'s out. I said with what? There's no way the dremel could get in there. He said I have some tools at home, come, bring them over. I was feeling knackered, but he's a really good guy, and I recognise that compulsive urge to solve a problem, and that is a mighty force to have onside, I wasn't going to turn my nose up at his offer, two minds are often better than one.
Half hour later and we're out back at his place, with a selection of tools, including a good angle grinder.
It wasn't easy to get in the first one, and there was lots more hammering, and swearing, in English and Polish, but eventually we got one of the yoke off the centre fixing. We'd got the technique down, and then whipped through the rest of them. We even cut directly through a curiosity just to see what they're like inside :laugh:
Wow, so I've got the u/j disassembled now too. I'm hoping assembly won't present so many problems. . . . We'll see.
I'm close to rebuilding the bike, I can feel it, build the uj's, push and shove the swing arm roller bearings, and wheel bearings, lube all the splines and surfaces with moly grease.
I marked the uj pieces in case it needs to go back together the same way, but it looks like it'll work, whichever way up or around they'tre arranged.
I've heard about driveshafts needing balancing, is this any issue with stock Guzzi driveshaft arrangements?
Thanks to all that have helped and encouraged me here, I think WE'RE getting somewhere, after all, I haven't been doing this work alone have I? :bow:
One cap removed by chiselling at the edge at different spots. Lot's of hammering :drool:
(https://i.ibb.co/1zwq4fp/20230908-163714-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1zwq4fp)
. . . . And then :cool:
(https://i.ibb.co/7JQS1tX/20230908-181025-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JQS1tX)
The swing arm bearing sleeve on the non drive side is pressed back in place awaiting the bearing, which along with the others, are sat in my freezer. As I'd done with the carrier bearing prior to heading to the w/shop. Hopefully it'll make for easier bearing installation, especially whilst air temps are fairly high I guess.
(https://i.ibb.co/gScjCbX/20230908-142308-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gScjCbX)
I might get somewhere with some stuff tmro, but then have a couple of busy days, so hopefully I'll be putting the bike back together early/mid next week :thumb:
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:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :bow:
Tom
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This is GREAT!
What an installment series. :cool:
Nearly as good as, "Long Way Round."
Kudos to you for keeping at it - it's all gonna go back together just
fine. Hardest - and filthiest - part's done!
-Stretch
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Thank you Tom, and Stretch :thumb:
Yes, I feel confident I've dealt with the real problematic parts of this work, and hoping the rebuilding, with every bearing on the back end replaced, is going to be quite a pleasure. Unfortunately, I won't get the chance until Tuesday or Wednesday.
I've been thinking though . . .
Would a stout fizzy drink bottle, cut to length, and with a cut made along the length, so it can overlap itself, so as the diameter can be adjusted, be suffice for keeping the U/J straight whilst fitting into the carrier bearing.
If so I could wrap it around the u/j and tape it off at the correct diameter. An added advantage would be that I could see that it's straight during the procedure.
I'd found a 150mm length, 56mm i/d, 60mm o/d, clear perspex piping on Amazon for £10, and thinking 'bloody hell, a tenner for a short length of plastic pipe, and as I took a drink from a fizzy drink bottle, I wondered Mmmm ...
I can't see a flaw in the plan, but as they say "God laughs at those who make plans" :laugh: . . . . I've never done one before, so not sure how desperately the u/j will want to move under pressure.
Any thoughts from those experienced in this task? :bow:
Cheers, Martizzug :wink:
Ps. Oh and this is a pic of the carrier bearing mount in the swing arm after a light brass brushing with the rotary tool. You can see the grooves, but the majority of the surface is good. Wish I'd used that bearing retaining compound though. I can't even find it now :rolleyes:
(https://i.ibb.co/MkJjNy3/20230908-114755-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MkJjNy3)
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I'm sure I will be flamed for this... But to heck with it. Only been working on my own for 42 years. Well before message board info. I only had the Chilton manual for guidance.
When I needed a new U joint many, many, many moons ago. Before I understood it's supposed to be a press fit. I sanded down the U joint so that I could just ""TAP"" it into the carrier bearing.
Now as far as my sometimes foggy brain can remember. I think I may have changed a carrier bearing a time or two in the 25-30 + years since I did this. But IIRR the U joint has been the same.
Wish I would have kept better records back then. I rode my Eldo for way too many years and still do, but the Ambo not so much. I'm pretty darn sure my fix was with the Eldo.
Sooo.... Take this post how you may.
If you really want it stock press fit, Benders site IIRR has info on the tool and you might want to consult that shop with the press.
Just my 2 cents,
Tom
An EDIT FWIW: I have recently worked on a few bikes that a friend wanted help with. So far....the U Joints have slid out of the carrier bearing firmly but easily. No tapping or hammering needed. A few had carriers that were not good, but not frozen and they were replaced. Some had perfectly smooth but firm feel like new carriers. Sooo...I don't think the U joint was ground down by spinning in the carrier.
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Just thinking out loud here really, but you can see in the first of the photos in the last post, that the circlip groove looks like it's going to need some work to be persuaded to accept the new one. I wonder if it might be worth thinking about doing the retaining set screw mod, as per later models may be a better option. That'll no doubt require a bench drill and a welder, and I guess that'd need to be done before the bearing is fitted in place.
I would, while it’s in bits
I did it a good few years back, only changed one uj/ bearing since but makes it a complete doddle, you fit bearing to uj first then fit assembly in swinging arm together.
Beats the old way hands down, grub screws secure bearing tight, uj should never spin in bearing again.
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I'm sure I will be flamed for this... But to heck with it. Only been working on my own for 42 years. Well before message board info. I only had the Chilton manual for guidance.
When I needed a new U joint many, many, many moons ago. Before I understood it's supposed to be a press fit. I sanded down the U joint so that I could just ""TAP"" it into the carrier bearing.
Now as far as my sometimes foggy brain can remember. I think I may have changed a carrier bearing a time or two in the 25-30 + years since I did this. But IIRR the U joint has been the same.
Wish I would have kept better records back then. I rode my Eldo for way too many years and still do, but the Ambo not so much. I'm pretty darn sure my fix was with the Eldo.
Sooo.... Take this post how you may.
If you really want it stock press fit, Benders site IIRR has info on the tool and you might want to consult that shop with the press.
Just my 2 cents,
Tom
An EDIT FWIW: I have recently worked on a few bikes that a friend wanted help with. So far....the U Joints have slid out of the carrier bearing firmly but easily. No tapping or hammering needed. A few had carriers that were not good, but not frozen and they were replaced. Some had perfectly smooth but firm feel like new carriers. Sooo...I don't think the U joint was ground down by spinning in the carrier.
Thanks Tom, I don't reckon you seem the type that'd be overly concerned about a lil bit of flaming :wink: :cool:
I've heard of a few people that have made the uj easier fit into the carrier bearing. I'm not sure how mine will be yet, but the inner race had to be cut off my uj, so will see before long. I'm pretty sure I could use the press at the w/shop if necessary, I need to take some beers but they wouldn't accept any payment :wink:. I'll see how the fit feels once I've fitted the uj crosses and placing the uj in the freezer overnight
"Sooo...I don't think the U joint was ground down by spinning in the carrier". I realise the uj couldn't be ground down as it wouldn't achieve that much movement. The place where mine did make contact with the Swing arm housing though, was directly on the lip that retains the circlip, and it hammered it out from a square shoulder to a 45 degree chamfer, thus grimly jamming the circlip firmly in place.
This wasn't due to the uj spinning in the bearing though, but down to the carrier bearing's complete collapse, having spat out its rusty ball bearings.
The home made tool made as shown on the Gregory Bender site, is for an earlier style UJ than that on a mid 90's Cali, though the principal would be similar. I wonder if the plastic sleeve need to be as thick and stout as that example. I kind of have it in my head, that if you multi-wrapped up the whole uj in a straight position, in lots gaffa tape, it'd perhaps be good enough, as unless I'm mistaken, all that's required, is keeping it straight so that whatever force is pushing the uj into the bearing, is being applied directly inline.
Of course, I realise I may be well off the mark though, I have no experience to go on, and just trying to think it through and figure something out. Lucozade 900ml bottles a are fairly stout as pop bottles go.
When I mentioned the Guzzi stock d/shaft arrangement, it was regarding as to whether drive shaft balancing is anything I need to be concerned about.
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This shows more clearly what I mean by the uj flailing about enough due to a complete collapse between the inner and outer races of the carrier bearing Tom.
You can see here, from about 10 to, to 20 past, the circlip retaining lip has been well and truly hammered onto the circlip. The opposite side from 20 past to 10 to, is how it should be, a squared shoulder.
(https://i.ibb.co/0DkqGn0/20230826-165922-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0DkqGn0)
I figure this damage was done on the short, under one mile, 15-20mph ride back on hearing the clanking sound of what I assume was the bearing losing its rusty ball bearings.
I didn't realise that this edge was jamming the circlip in place, and wrestled with it thinking it was just seized, and wow it took a hell of a lot to force it into submission.
If anyone struggling to remove this circlip in the future, happens to be looking at this thread, if it's been hammered in as above, it'd have been much easier if I'd have run a dremel tool around the edge where it was jammed against the clip. . . . It needs paring back anyway, to allow the old bearing race to come out, and the new bearing to be pressed in. I wish I'd have realised, it would have saved me a real nasty job removing that circlip.
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As usual, I'm trying to run before I can walk when asking about hooking the uj up to the carrier bearing. I can't for the life of me get the first cross to fit in the first yoke, it just doesn't seem physically possible.
I have the circlip in on one side, but can't push the other side through to even begin to see the circlip groove on the other side. The old circlips don't seem any thinner than the new ones. I don't know if the extra .2mm length is enough to give the problem. I'm pretty sure no needles are lent over, as the cross ran fine until I tried to push the second end in enough to fit the circlip. It then jams up. If I give the yoke a sharp tap on the ends, it comes free again, but not very smooth.
I'm losing the will to live here right now.
It seems to me that the 49mm crosses would perhaps be a lot easier then the 50.2mm ones I'm trying to fit here. However, I dare say that's down to me fkn something up, as others seem to manage with the 50.2mm crosses.
On one occasion I was tapping the second side in until the circlip came out from the other side. I can't believe it's so difficult. I've watched so many videos on swapping out the crosses, and all of them seem to have plenty of room to push the end caps out on removal, and no struggle to drive the crosses into the caps to fit the circlips at each end. They shouldn't be really tight to fit, from what I can see, and it just doesn't feel right somehow.
I really don't know what to do now :sad:
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1.2 mm is the thickness of two matchbook covers. If the old one was tight you may have an issue. Can you measure the yoke and new joint to compare? One thing you can do is compare how far in the cross sits in the new cap. If by chance a roller has fallen over this would be a visible indicator. Newly fitted crosses can seem very tight with fresh grease and new seals. Another thought is the yoke could have been bent a slight bit when the bearing let loose or when trying to remove the crosses in the vice. That might misalign the holes and bearing caps as they are assembled. Finding a rod the cap size would would show if the holes line up. I know your working in your yard but you may need a little more help here for the final fitting of new parts.
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Sorry, I'm spitting my dummy out, but of course it's my fault.
So it seems I may have a needle or two laid over after all.
I noticed the seal on one side doesn't compress when the cross is shoved right into that side. Whereas when the cross is pushed into the other side the seal can really be compressed, and you can feel it through your fingers, like a bit of shock absorption in the seal, unlike the side that doesn't compress, which feels like it hits hard surface against hard surface and stops dead, no shock absorption.
So I checked the other new cross, just to check I'm not going nuts, and it one of the seals wouldn't compress. At first I thought it must be how it's supposed to be then, but quickly realised that made no sense whatsoever. I removed the cap of the offending end, and a single needle was lying flat in the end of the cap. It looked exactly the same difference re the lack of compression as the one I've tried fitting. I know I checked to make sure they were all stood up in place before offering up to fit, but I found that even then, I was working blind in the sense that it needed some good taps to get it going, so I presume one or more fell over in the process somewhere, and of course, unnoticed until I'd got the cap home and found it wasn't close to accepting a circlip on that side.
So now I'm in the same position I was in when I was trying to dismantle the uj.
You can see in the pic that one side's seal isn't compressed.
(https://i.ibb.co/bW0YxgM/20230913-190515-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bW0YxgM)
And here I've driven that end back out as far as I can, but it's tight as hell, and I can't remove the cap to sort the issue out. I've tried grabbing the cap with plumber's grips, and with the small jeweler's vice, but I just can't budge it. I'd deburred all edges and cleaned the inside sleeve thoroughly with a soft fabric polishing wheel on the dremel, so there's no jagged burrs etc affecting things.
(https://i.ibb.co/bW0YxgM/20230913-190515-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bW0YxgM)
Mild panic set in, so I checked the size and condition of the old caps from the old crosses, which look to be the same length, though I'd have to clean one thoroughly and check the diameter, and condition, of the bore too, in case I have to resort to the drastic ,measure of taking it off with a hammer and chisel. Hammer and chisel would take the cap off, there's a bit more cap showing than the original one I got off with hammer and chisel when dismantling the original one.
I'm cursing a bit, as the condition of the original uj crosses wasn't bad at all. You could see very slight needle marks on the posts, but none of them were trashed. I know I wouldn't have felt that comfortable risking the old one though, but now I understand the crosses better having seen how they work internally with my own eyes, I would have probably have cleaned it up and re-used it.
I don't regret buying new crosses though, but I'm now not feeling too comfortable about the way I'm performing here, building the new one.
Ive got to try and think a way to remove the cap without damaging it if I possibly can though, it seems ridiculous to be taking a hammer and chisel to the new one :rolleyes:
I feel like a flaming idiot :boxing: :violent1:, yet still struggling to see where exactly, I went wrong. I am sure it shouldn't be a hit n miss affair though.
Once again, apologies for spitting my dummy out :bow:
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1.2 mm is the thickness of two matchbook covers. If the old one was tight you may have an issue. Can you measure the yoke and new joint to compare? One thing you can do is compare how far in the cross sits in the new cap. If by chance a roller has fallen over this would be a visible indicator. Newly fitted crosses can seem very tight with fresh grease and new seals. Another thought is the yoke could have been bent a slight bit when the bearing let loose or when trying to remove the crosses in the vice. That might misalign the holes and bearing caps as they are assembled. Finding a rod the cap size would would show if the holes line up. I know your working in your yard but you may need a little more help here for the final fitting of new parts.
Thanks Mike, as you can see, we were cross posting. I think it is a fallen roller :rolleyes: Now with cap stuck tight, doh...
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Thanks for the different lines to follow Mike.
I can access the hydraulic press again to install the uj in the carrier bearing if necessary.
I figured the uj should be doable, but I beginning to think I can be a bit over optimistic, but even now, I still feel I should be able to do that job. . . . I'm flipping stubborn too you see :rolleyes:
I don't think the yoke is bent, I didn't use a vice and heavy hammering to remove the crosses, I cut the buggers out with an angle grinder. They weren't in bad shape internally, so I doubt the carrier bearing collapse did enough to bend the yoke either. I could be wrong though of course.
I did pass a bar through when checking for any missed burrs, and although it wasn't exactly the same diameter all the way through, one end was, and the holes looked in line to me.
I'm pretty certain it a needle gone over, looking at the seal not compressing, and I'd hazard a guess that it would account for the exact difference needed to get the second circlip groove exposed :cry:
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In the pics, the cap on the RH side looks to be sticking out a bit. Looks like you should be able to grab it with a good bench mounted vise and tap and twist until it comes out. Maybe your press shop has one.
Also, hammering in end caps can lead to a roller/needle falling out of place. Been there. Use the press at the shop to push the caps in, or even use a vise to squeeze them in.
Your doing very well. Be glad you have a place to ask questions and get very good answers. Many had to learn the hard way without any help.
Tom
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That is going to be hard to grab if it's that tight. I have a 5C collet that can match the size of a round bar or cap within .015 of an inch. In a fixture that can be tightened down pretty tight, you can then twist and pry a bit without breaking the cap. Unfortunately you need a machine shop that will give you a minute. I might take some emery cloth to the yokes to make it just a little easier to install the rest of caps. The circlip should do the majority of the work holding them together.
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Just a thought
If you take the caps off the side of the cross that isn't in the yoke yet, that might buy you a few more mm to grab hold off.
Secondly I think that you had a metal vice in one of the earlier replies.
If you were to bolt it to a block of wood couldn't you hold it in your woodworkers bench vice.
At a push a big G cramp in the woodworkers bench vice might help
Steady pressure via a vice/cramp will make this more controllable IMO
Keep plugging away though :thumb:
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Another thought if you have no real tools. If the new cross is drilled for grease, how about filling the cup with water holding the cross out as far as possible and then freezing the whole lot. Push out the cap clean things up well and start over.
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Another thought if you have no real tools. If the new cross is drilled for grease, how about filling the cup with water holding the cross out as far as possible and then freezing the whole lot. Push out the cap clean things up well and start over.
That's cunning Mike :bow: :bow: :bow:
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In the pics, the cap on the RH side looks to be sticking out a bit. Looks like you should be able to grab it with a good bench mounted vise and tap and twist until it comes out. Maybe your press shop has one.
Also, hammering in end caps can lead to a roller/needle falling out of place. Been there. Use the press at the shop to push the caps in, or even use a vise to squeeze them in.
Your doing very well. Be glad you have a place to ask questions and get very good answers. Many had to learn the hard way without any help.
Tom
Thanks Tom, be glad? I honestly have no idea how I'd manage without the generous help from people here at Wild Guzzi, your good self included. I wish we could all teleport to a bike friendly pub/bar so I could buy a round of beers. I do intend making a donation to the site in a week or two though, when I have some funds coming in. It won't be ever so much, as I don't have very much, but I would like to contribute. There's a lot of dedication put in here, and my respect, admiration, awe and appreciation for folks good will and incredible depth of knowledge, has serious depth.
As Pirsig said in Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance "“'This divorce of art from technology is completely unnatural. It's just that it's gone on so long you have to be an archaeologist to find out where the two separated." . . . . you're all artists in my book :bow:
I hope I haven't come across as anything other than respectful, and grateful, and I hope me spitting my dummy out wasn't taken as spitting it out at the community here, god forbid :shocked:
funnily enough, I've just purchased a 19 by 7 inch very heavy old quick release vice for £20, I'll hopefully collect it today if I can grab a lift from a friend. I've definitely found I really need a vice. I'll try that for removing the cap first, and ifd it works out, I'll try it for pressing them in.
I've also got a huge well built bench too, you could easily fit a Guzzi on there with plenty of space all around it. God knows how you'd get it up there though :laugh:. I can't access it yet, but may well sort a workshop in my back room this winter :wink: It's a big room, and I have a wide front door to ride my bike in.
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That is going to be hard to grab if it's that tight. I have a 5C collet that can match the size of a round bar or cap within .015 of an inch. In a fixture that can be tightened down pretty tight, you can then twist and pry a bit without breaking the cap. Unfortunately you need a machine shop that will give you a minute. I might take some emery cloth to the yokes to make it just a little easier to install the rest of caps. The circlip should do the majority of the work holding them together.
The 5C collet sounds like a good idea if I can't sort it myself. Hopefully I'll pick up a large heavy vice this evening which may resolve the end cap, and allow me to press the crosses in too. I think the emery cloth is a good idea too, as they're all a very tight squeeze.
And this
"Another thought if you have no real tools. If the new cross is drilled for grease, how about filling the cup with water holding the cross out as far as possible and then freezing the whole lot. Push out the cap clean things up well and start over."
As Tris said, very cunning indeed. I love your creative thinking, both with the collet and the ice :wink: There are plenty of engineering shops nearby dso the collet idea may be possible if needed.
The crosses, don't have grease nipples, but they have grease channels running to the centre. I don't know if the water would pass the grease that's already in there, but it might work.
If I'm lucky the new, old vice will be suffice to grab the cap firmly enough for me to tap the yoke and free it off. I'll let you know how I get on in a few hours.
Thanks for the excellent input Mike :bow: :thumb:
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Just a thought
If you take the caps off the side of the cross that isn't in the yoke yet, that might buy you a few more mm to grab hold off.
Secondly I think that you had a metal vice in one of the earlier replies.
If you were to bolt it to a block of wood couldn't you hold it in your woodworkers bench vice.
At a push a big G cramp in the woodworkers bench vice might help
Steady pressure via a vice/cramp will make this more controllable IMO
Keep plugging away though :thumb:
Thanks Tris :thumb:
The little steel vice is just a tiny jeweler's vice, but I pick up a big heavy vice later this eve :wink:
"Just a thought
If you take the caps off the side of the cross that isn't in the yoke yet, that might buy you a few more mm to grab hold off."
Yes, a damn good thought at that, very well spotted. I think you're right, it may just offer a mm or two before the central block meets the yoke, once the other two caps are removed.
I'm both impressed and humbled by the ideas generated by you guys here, very inspiring :bow: :bow: :bow:
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I managed to pick up the vice. It's a monster, a Parkinson No7, weighing in at 61lbs, and the mechanism is perfect. With the quick release it glides surprisingly smoothly, the winding gear is spot on with no sloppy play, the jaw mating surfaces are both ok and it a long winding handle to easily apply pressure.
I'm well pleased with it, especially for just £20. Researching the vice online, it looks to be pre 1930's, and the average going price for this model is around £100, ranging from £75 to a staggeringly unrealistic £280, but plenty of prices between £100-£180, so I seem to have got myself a real bargain.
It was advertised on facecrack mkt place, and could see it was a good solid vice, and was assured it was very heavy and in perfect working order. The weight of this vice was part of the appeal as it will be sturdy enough for many jobs without being attached to a bench
I've always had a fondness for antiquities, and generally speaking, when it comes to things like furniture, tools etc, a lot of old functional items are much better made than the modern day equivalents.
Mmm ... I know, it's only a vice, but I'm easily excited :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
All I need is Mummy vice for the set :laugh: :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/kcH912w/20230914-191857-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kcH912w)
I tried clamping the uj cross cap in it and tapped the yoke with a light hammer, but it pulled it out of the jaws each time. it was reasonably tight, but I could clamp it a lot tighter, but I'm worried about damaging the cap.
I've no experience, as you know, with uj's, and not sure how tight I can afford to go. Obviously, they're fairly tough, just to be able to stand the load they bear, but as you might imagine, it's all a bit of an unknown to me.
So later today I'll put one of the old ones back on an old post, complete with needles, and try and apply pressure until it does cause damage, so that I have an idea how far I can push things.
If I can't shift it, I'll try and get down to a local engineering firm and see what they suggest, or ask them to try the 5C collet, as Mike suggested.
It does seem ridiculously tight, but then again, if most people are using presses to install them, I guess they're going to be pretty tight too. Again, the lack of experience leaves me with no sense of a norm, but it's difficult for anyone to try and describe how tight the fit is, or how much pressure I can apply to the cap, I think that's beyond the scope of language, unless some sort of standardised arrangement for measuring the torque . . . Uhm? :laugh: :laugh: No, the only way is for me to gain the experience and try and be sensible whilst keeping my fingers crossed
They certainly took some hard taps with a good sized hammer to get them home. At least if I end up at an engineers, they'd hopefully have an appropriate diameter bar to pass through the eyes in the yokes, again, as Mike suggested, just to be sure they are true and not putting things under undue strain.
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....... The weight of this vice was part of the appeal as it will be sturdy enough for many jobs without being attached to a bench......
Be careful.
If its on a bench when you're yanking stuff around and comes off because its not bolted down that could really ruin your day!
How much is enough/not enough is a tricky thing to learn, but start light handed and choke down on the handle
If you use the full length of the handle you can get a tremendous pressure with a vice of that size
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Be careful.
If its on a bench when you're yanking stuff around and comes off because its not bolted down that could really ruin your day!
How much is enough/not enough is a tricky thing to learn, but start light handed and choke down on the handle
If you use the full length of the handle you can get a tremendous pressure with a vice of that size
Thanks Tris, yes no worries, it'll live on the floor level until I get the bench sorted, and then it'll definitely be bolted down. If that thing landed on your foot from bench height, you'd need a whole new foot I reckon.
The amount of cap sticking out to grab hold of is not as it might seem. Where the lowest point of the yoke, it looks not bad, but other areas of the yoke that are higher and have less cap showing , is the maximum amount of cap that's possible for the vice to grip onto as the higher parts prevent them getting further down, even though it's exposed to the eye.
I think I'll take a walk to a local engineering shop a bit later on if I can't shift it with another attempt.
Tricky to learn. Yes for sure, but I've got a reasonable sense for how much pressure to apply for most things I'd get in there, I used similar size vices at both the coal board and when I worked a few years on the farm. It was a long time ago, but the feel of it was just like it was yesterday.
That's why I'm very wary of applying too much pressure on the cap, it's more the cap that I don't know the strength of, and quite sure I could easily damage it if I hang on and heave away at the end of that bar handle.
It is indeed a very powerful vice, but I see that as a good thing, as I do the weight. My thinking was whilst benchless, I can clamp something up and work on it without much fear of it moving, within reason of course. It should hopefully work as a good, easy to control, press for fitting the uj crosses :thumb:
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A large vise is a nice addition. Now maybe try making a fixture or two to make it work a bit harder for you. Maybe take a piece of aluminum(1/2 inch or thicker) and drill a hole as close to the size of the u joint cap. Cut a slot to the hole so you can fit the cap in and then squeeze it with the vise. The aluminum should not deform the cap easily so you should get some good pressure.
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I would, while it’s in bits
I did it a good few years back, only changed one uj/ bearing since but makes it a complete doddle, you fit bearing to uj first then fit assembly in swinging arm together.
Beats the old way hands down, grub screws secure bearing tight, uj should never spin in bearing again.
Blimey, I'm so sorry mate, I don't think I responded to you here, but I managed to get the bearing pressed in and circlip fitted perfectly.
It's definitely something I'm marking in my to do list, the next time I have call to remove the swing arm. It seems like it would make the job easier. Having said that, I'm going to be sure not to let things get in that state again.
I get it that it'd prevent the outer race spinning in the swing arm, which mine had done, but how does it help prevent the u/j spinning in the inner race? .. Not that I had that problem, I had to cut that race off the uj yoke.
Where exactly do you add the screws, are they at an angle, or directly into the outer edge of the bearing?
Cheers :thumb:
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A large vise is a nice addition. Now maybe try making a fixture or two to make it work a bit harder for you. Maybe take a piece of aluminum(1/2 inch or thicker) and drill a hole as close to the size of the u joint cap. Cut a slot to the hole so you can fit the cap in and then squeeze it with the vise. The aluminum should not deform the cap easily so you should get some good pressure.
Yes, it's a beaut of a vice. I look fwd to cleaning it up and bringing that back to the steel, but not til I've got my bike priorities good and sorted :wink:
That's another cool idea with the aluminium Mike. I don't even know where you'd buy metals in my city, but there will be places for sure.
I've dealt with the offending cap quite crudely in the end :violent1:
It was a right struggle. I'd hammered on a piece of wood on the two unconnected posts away from the end with the fallen needles, thinking It might some how give me better access, but it didn't. I couldn't get the other end cap to move further, without drifting it with the other cap, which would do nothing for me but jam the offending one back in.
(https://i.ibb.co/nr9NVyL/20230915-141743-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nr9NVyL)
My mate up the road came over, and we both tried to free it. He's a big strong bloke, and despite being quite wirey, I have a lot of arm/shoulder strength, life of guitar playing, and hanging on to handle bars perhaps, but we couldn't make it budge with four arms, and a strong vice.
I checked the old crosses, they have the same B 50 markings on the cast centre, although different mold, ut I assume the same spec. I used a vernier gauge and measured the post diameters and length, and they're exactly the same. I have a few of the old caps and they're in pretty good order, so I've got one soaking in white/mineral spirits to degrease, then I'll brass wire brush it and grease it up and load with rollers.
(https://i.ibb.co/GFRN0qR/20230915-203131-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GFRN0qR)
So, secure in that knowledge I decided to chisel the stuck one off, and wow did it take some hammering and chiseling, but no damage caused other than to the offending cap. I know it's crude, but it was effective. i'd gone to the local engineer shop first, they usually finish around 3.30 to 4pm on Fridays, but for whatever reason, the place was closed by noon'ish
Then, I had a go at fitting another cap and used the big vice to smoothly press it into place.
(https://i.ibb.co/6Nn3n80/20230915-165544-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Nn3n80)
It easn't exactly "Bingo" though, the circlips were mofo's to get in place, and after pressing in a bit more, maybe more than I should have, and managed to man handle them in. However, the cross was seriously, horribly stiff. I tried freeing them off with the taps to the yokes around the caps method, and although it helped a fraction, I kinda knew I'd got things jammed too tight by getting thr clips in place. They are quite thick circlips, as can be seen here.
(https://i.ibb.co/w4Rs4Hr/20230915-165737-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w4Rs4Hr)
Charlie had said that he's had to save the old clips because the ones with the new crosses were too thick, and it's mentioned on Greg Bender's site about using an angle/bench grinder to thin the circlips down in the 50.2mm crosses now used, that are a Kawasaki part spec, whereas original Guzzi ones were 50mm, so maybe the .2mm is the issue, or that in combination with thicker circlips. but oddly enough, I can't see any difference thickness between the old and new ones . . . I've been scratching my head over that.
Anyway, I borrowed my mate's angle grinder and set about thinning some circlips. The first one I tried, snapped when I attempted to fit it, so I'd probably gone a bit too thin in one point, where it snapped. So tried again, being more careful, although the angle grinder is a powerful one, and I don't think it was built for finesse, However, I managed ok, got them fitted. Then tapped the unconnected posts with a piece of wood for protection to the post surfaces again, and drove the caps out to push up to the thinner circlips.
Now it was "Bingo", with a couple of taps to the yoke it became free and smooth as it should be :thumb:
(https://i.ibb.co/6Nn3n80/20230915-165544-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Nn3n80)
I'm going to try and do the rest of them later today.
I'm loving your input, the way you apply your mind to these matters Mike, you definitely remind me of the quote from Pirsig in Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance . . .
"It's this understanding of Quality as revealed by stuckness which so often makes self-taught mechanics so superior to institute-trained men who have learned how to handle everything except a new situation." . . . In the best possible way, your way of thinking doesn't remind me of 'institute-trained men"....... Although some of those people can, I'm sure can be excellent, he hastens to add, just in case he's made the wrong call :laugh: :laugh: :thumb:
It's much appreciated mate, thank you :bow:
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I know I've posted this pic and question before, but didn't get a response to it, other than that it's probably original powder coating. I don't think it's a good idea to have this powder whizzing around in there. It must have been pondered before, but I can't find anything related to it online. Does any one have a good method of getting rid of the corrosion salts(?), and preventing it from coming back? Is it just a clean and grease, probably sticky stuff and thin to avoid it being slung out near the tyre as the wheels centrifugal force is occurring?
(https://i.ibb.co/1JP1qMv/20230819-223211-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1JP1qMv)
All the powder coating has come off.
Cheers Mart
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Oh, and just as an aside, the blood blister I gave myself by hammering my thumb instead of the chisel 2 or 3 weeks ago, has remained quite painful, and the pain was quite deep.
Anyway the the blood blister had dried out, so I pulled it off.
Well imagine my surprise when it revealed a tiny little angry face, complete with a row of teeth ...... WTaF?!?!
(https://i.ibb.co/9976VCn/20230915-112417-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9976VCn)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
No wonder it was still painful to put any pressure on the end of my thumb, which you only really realise how much we tend to do that, when it's injured :rolleyes: ,,, It seems that I'd managed to cause a cut under the blood blister that has gone quite deep, or maybe it got a bit infected, that's what the kind of pain feels like.
It's only a flesh wound :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Blimey, I'm so sorry mate, I don't think I responded to you here, but I managed to get the bearing pressed in and circlip fitted perfectly.
It's definitely something I'm marking in my to do list, the next time I have call to remove the swing arm. It seems like it would make the job easier. Having said that, I'm going to be sure not to let things get in that state again.
I get it that it'd prevent the outer race spinning in the swing arm, which mine had done, but how does it help prevent the u/j spinning in the inner race? .. Not that I had that problem, I had to cut that race off the uj yoke.
Where exactly do you add the screws, are they at an angle, or directly into the outer edge of the bearing?
Cheers :thumb:
A much more common problem than yours is uj spinning in bearing, getting sloppy and then wearing out splines, most noticeably on the pinion shaft. Getting the bearing true in swingingarm and uj perfectly mounted in bearing is the goal. The grub screw mod helps by firstly getting uj in bearing and then locking the bearing square in swingingarm. I’m convinced it was a good step by Guzzi
I ‘ve never seen the factory swinging arm only tech drawings, mine are drilled and tapped slightly inward so do up grub screws till they stop, bearing is locked square . But exactly at bearing edge would do same
But really, I think you’ve fixed yours for next few years, changing the uj crosses was excessive use of cash imho but pretty unlikely to have to go back there for 50k miles so go and have fun
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A much more common problem than yours is uj spinning in bearing, getting sloppy and then wearing out splines, most noticeably on the pinion shaft. Getting the bearing true in swingingarm and uj perfectly mounted in bearing is the goal. The grub screw mod helps by firstly getting uj in bearing and then locking the bearing square in swingingarm. I’m convinced it was a good step by Guzzi
I ‘ve never seen the factory swinging arm only tech drawings, mine are drilled and tapped slightly inward so do up grub screws till they stop, bearing is locked square . But exactly at bearing edge would do same
But really, I think you’ve fixed yours for next few years, changing the uj crosses was excessive use of cash imho but pretty unlikely to have to go back there for 50k miles so go and have fun
I had a couple of days out, it was my birthday on the 19th, and spent some good time with a few friends. Back to the fray now, so to speak :smiley:
I still don't understand how the outer bearing race, being held in place, prevents the inner bearing to u/j slipping, unless that slippage is connected to pressing the u/j into the carrier bearing in situ?
Is the swing arm bearing housing reamed out a little to allow an easier fit. It's just that mine needed considerable pressure from a hydraulic press to get the bearing home, and just wondering how that'd be possible to do that with the u/j already fitted in the bearing?
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious here. It certainly makes sense to me when it comes to removing a rusted or trapped circlip from inside that recess.
Is the pinion shaft spline more liable to wear damage, than the other shaft connections? The reason I ask, is that the pinion shaft splines on my bike look a lot worse than any of the others. It doesn't look like it's fresh wear though, there are no shiny bits showing anywhere, so I imagine this goes back a good while before this trouble I've had recently.
(https://i.ibb.co/Vq9SL3c/20230917-144912-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vq9SL3c)
You're right, I wouldn't make the change in bearing retainment until I next have the need to pull the bearing again, hopefully a long time from now.
I was cleaning the bevel drive and left it laying flat, with the hub mating side facing down, and the oil from the drive seeped out through the bearings. Am I right in assuming this is normal? I suspect whilst in operation that oil gets through there by design, and flows back into the bevel box via the small slither of a moon opening at the bottom, underneath the bearing. I thought I'd better ask, rather than go on my assumptions though.
(https://i.ibb.co/DgZCpPJ/20230916-200226-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DgZCpPJ)
I haven't got the u/j rebuilt yet, but I have thinned all of the circlips, and intend to put it all together today, all being well.
I've noted the comments about me attempting to fit the u/j into the carrier bearing myself, and advised to seek help with the task. I understand that there's genuine concern that I'll find this task to be difficult, and as such take seriously what's being suggested. Can I please ask where the perceived difficulty might lie? It's just that if it's because I'll need a press, I'm pretty sure I can have the use of the hydraulic press again.
As for the sleeve, if the idea of a stout plastic fizzy pop bottle well and truly gaffa taped to keep it straight, isn't going to be strong enough to prevent it buckling, I should be able to get some stout plastic drainage pipe of the correct diameter from somewhere local.
One worry that goes through my head is if I get too much pressure on with the hydraulic press, that it finally goes with a thump onto the inner race of the carrier bearing. Obviously, with no experience of pressing the u/j into the carrier bearing, I'm not sure what to expect in the way of the pressure required to press it home, but I know it's not ideal to apply much force to the inner race of a ball bearing.
Bike repair shops ar far and few between here, haha, mind you, that's the UK version of far and few between, in comparison to the US, where a trip half the length of England seems like an average trip to a bike w/shop for many. But are you guys thinking any decent engineering shop, or local car mechanics would be able to manage the task? Or are you thinking specifically of a guzzi experienced mechanic?
I would like to do it myself, if the press is the issue, but if you think there's a good chance I'll be heading for a whole world of pain, I'll respect the heads up, and get some help with it.
Cheers, Mart
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Soo many questions....
Carrier bearing should be a very tight fit into the swingarm. That is what keeps the carrier bearing from spinning. The bearing and the retaining clip go in the swingarm first. Then the U joint is installed.
U joint is supposed to have a tight fit into the carrier bearing, Good and snug is fine. If the U joint does not have a snug fit into the carrier bearing, the U joint can start spinning in the carrier bearing and the bearing may not turn. The U joint should slide in with light pressure from a hydraulic press. It should not go in with a bang.
The issue pressing the U joint in is tat the U joint will not stay straight in the swingarm. When you start pressing it will tilt off to one side or the other. I think there was a tool for Loops to hold the U joint straight Basically a tube that went around the U joint to keep it straight.
With this said, all my U joints will slide into the carrier bearing by hand, not press needed. They fit snug and the bearing does turn.
Yes oil will come out the bevel drive if left flat or pointed down.
You splines are not the prettiest. Cleaned up they may be ok. Check your coupler splines, they could be bad and you may need a new coupler. Also grease the heck out of the splines with a tacky grease.
Hope this helps,
Tom
PS: Happy B-Day :boozing:
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Looks to me that the input spline spent a fair amount of time under water. I'd be curious what the inside of the final drive looked like.
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Soo many questions....
Carrier bearing should be a very tight fit into the swingarm. That is what keeps the carrier bearing from spinning. The bearing and the retaining clip go in the swingarm first. Then the U joint is installed.
U joint is supposed to have a tight fit into the carrier bearing, Good and snug is fine. If the U joint does not have a snug fit into the carrier bearing, the U joint can start spinning in the carrier bearing and the bearing may not turn. The U joint should slide in with light pressure from a hydraulic press. It should not go in with a bang.
The issue pressing the U joint in is tat the U joint will not stay straight in the swingarm. When you start pressing it will tilt off to one side or the other. I think there was a tool for Loops to hold the U joint straight Basically a tube that went around the U joint to keep it straight.
With this said, all my U joints will slide into the carrier bearing by hand, not press needed. They fit snug and the bearing does turn.
Yes oil will come out the bevel drive if left flat or pointed down.
You splines are not the prettiest. Cleaned up they may be ok. Check your coupler splines, they could be bad and you may need a new coupler. Also grease the heck out of the splines with a tacky grease.
Hope this helps,
Tom
PS: Happy B-Day :boozing:
Ah Tom, thank you. I get that the carrier bearing should be a tight fit. That part of my questions was directed to Jackson racing, and referring to using set screws to retain the bearing instead of the circlip, and that he, and others I've seen, fits the uj to the carrier bearing prior to fitting the whole lot into the carrier bearing. So I was wondering if the bearing housing was reamed out to make the carrier bearing easier to fit, because mine needed pressing in with considerable force, and couldn't figure out how that was done with the uj already fitted in the c. bearing.
Jackson also said it reduced the chances of the uj spinning in the inner race, and again, I don't understand how, so again I was just enquiring.
My carrier bearing was a good tight press fit into the swing arm, and the old inner bearing had to be cut off the uj, so I'm not expecting a lose fit there either.
Yes I get that with the uj wanting to buckle too. I was thinking about trying a stout fizzy drink bottle, by cutting a section the right length, cut along the length so that it can overlap, and then tape it off for a good snug fit. However, I was advised that it may be a good idea to seek help with getting it fitted.
Ah that's good to be sure about the oil is seeping from the final drive as it should in that position.
Yes, the final drive spline is a bit of a mystery, the splines on the coupler seem good, as they do on the other end of the shaft connecting to the uj, and the output shaft splines. It's just the pinion drive splines that look so rough.
As I said, it doesn't look like it's been gnarled up of late, and the coupler looks decent, so I'm assuming something has perhaps gone on down there a good while ago.
Yes, and thanks, I've got a tub of Red n' Tacky grease for all the splines :wink:
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IIRR the set screws are used on my '04 without a retaining ring. I would have to look it up to confirm this.
IMHO, if you can get the U joint to slide into the carrier bearing by hand with a firm push, you are good to go. Others that have way more years of "working daily" experience on these bikes I'm sure have different opinions. My opinion come from 40 years of owning two Loops as well as my EVT for 10 years.
Your carrier seems fine if it needed to be pressed in.
With all the rust in the bits your working on, I'm thinking your U joint rubber boot was bad and letting water in.
As mentioned. It might be worth opening up the bevel box and see what it looks like inside. If the oil that came out looks good and not milky looking, you "could" be fine. But since your in this deep already, might be worth a look and clean out.
Tom
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Looks to me that the input spline spent a fair amount of time under water. I'd be curious what the inside of the final drive looked like.
I can see how it looks like that, but look beyond the circlip and you'll see the damage doesn't extend down there. If you look at the other pic, you'll notice the oil that's seeped through the bearings isn't ghastly at all, neither was the oil I removed the last time I changed the oil. On turning the pinion shaft, everything feels smooth, with no play between the pinion shaft and the toothed gear that engages the wheel.
The reddish look on the splines is not rust, but the remnants of red tacky grease, the wear a battering are real enough though. I don't really understand how water gets in the swing arm, the rubber boot was all good and well secured, but the carrier bearing obviously had some moisture in there, to disintegrate it into rusty bits.
I've had the bike 9 years and confess, this is the first time I've ever removed the swing arm.
The grease, of which looked like it'd once been plentiful had dried out and become crumbly, a bit like a dryish red clay.
I suspect, as per the comments made above by Jackson, that in the past the bike has had some sort of issue in the carrier bearing, which apparently causes sloppiness particularly on the pinion shaft. . . . At least that's how my brain calculates it, I may be wrong of course, it could have been wear over time under harsh conditions. I can't for the life of me think that these splines could have ever been completely submerged in water as you suggest. I can't see how that could even be a possibility?
I often use the bike in winter, and it lives outdoors, but I still can't see how water would get in there, as I said, it's well sealed up. I've heard it mentioned that condensation can be an issue in the swing arm too, but I can't imagine it being enough to submerge the pinion shaft, and the spline coupler is, comparatively speaking, in a lot better shape.
If I am somehow getting water into the swing arm housing of the driveshaft, I could certainly do with figuring out why, but having said that, I will be pulling my swing arm and inspect the uj/drive train in the annual yearly basis from now on :rolleyes:
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You pics look like rust, not dried grease. If it's just dried grease all is fine. Well except for the grease :grin:
I would not pull the swingarm as regular maintenance,
Tom
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IIRR the set screws are used on my '04 without a retaining ring. I would have to look it up to confirm this.
IMHO, if you can get the U joint to slide into the carrier bearing by hand with a firm push, you are good to go. Others that have way more years of "working daily" experience on these bikes I'm sure have different opinions. My opinion come from 40 years of owning two Loops as well as my EVT for 10 years.
Your carrier seems fine if it needed to be pressed in.
With all the rust in the bits your working on, I'm thinking your U joint rubber boot was bad and letting water in.
As mentioned. It might be worth opening up the bevel box and see what it looks like inside. If the oil that came out looks good and not milky looking, you "could" be fine. But since your in this deep already, might be worth a look and clean out.
Tom
Yes Tom, my carrier bearing is all good and new retaining clip fitted. The reason I was interested in the set screws was in consideration of doing the mod on mine mainly because of the absolute fkr of a job it was to remove the old circlip. I thought it had just seized in there, but it turned out the u/j, running lose with no support between the inner and outer race, as it had spat its balls and cage out, had been rubbing or hammering on the lip that retains the circlip, jamming it firmly around half of its circumference. . . . So in reality, if I keep inspecting it yearly for example, it should never get in this state again, as it never should have in the first place.
I think I was a bit scared of the whole drive shaft thing, I figured they were sealed bearings, and hoped I'd detect something easily enough if I had issues, which all went fine ..... for a while :violent1:
I've broken that fear well and truly now, I've found having no choice will do that to a man :laugh: :laugh:
Man everything was so overdue, and can only blame myself for things getting in such s state making every job that can be difficult, bloody difficult. I was removing the wheel bearings today, and the drive side of the wheel, with the slide hammer puller, a few stout whacks and out came the bearing in a manner fit for a youtube 'how to' video :grin: . . . The other side though :angry: . . . I removed the circlip, which took some shifting. I had to take to a small punch to tempt the ends free, and then managed to wrestle it out, much to the detriment of the clip, which had bent right out of shape. I've ordered a replacement, arrives tmro
Then I got the collet in a good level hold attached the slide hammer, but no matter how many times, or how much force was applied when, I slammed the slide hammer out, that bearing didn't budge the slightest bit. There's rust visible from the circlip groove to the edge of the outer race. I've applied WD40, and had a good run around with a wire brush, so I'll see if it gives tomorrow. I can borrow a good blow torch if necessary, and I imagine heating up the outer part of the hub that holds the bearing, should expand it enough for the bearing to free up.
I'm not too phased by this though, it's very easy to get at compared to the stuck carrier bearing race in the deep swing arm recess. It seems like fair enough play for the effort required to be matching the neglect.
However, I've got to say, I really don't want to split the bevel drive without any indication of any problems. The oil that came out was like a quality clear honey, definitely no water/oil sludge or cloudiness. The roughness on the worn splines stops clearly at the pinion shaft circlip, and much of what looks like a rust colour on the splines, is dried up baked of red grease.
Here's a pic that shows things better re grease/rust. You can see the accumulation of the grease and its colour on the very end of the pinion splined shaft, and also around the circlip
(https://i.ibb.co/CHLsmZW/20230917-143134-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CHLsmZW)
Here's the coupler that connects to the pinion shaft
(https://i.ibb.co/cvYhkPZ/20230922-015117-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cvYhkPZ)
And the end that connects to the u/j
(https://i.ibb.co/drtvGXP/20230922-014650-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/drtvGXP)
However, confession time, and believe me I feel embarrassed, but a couple of days before my birthday I realised that I'd somehow managed to lose my driveshaft :violent1: :embarrassed: I searched and searched for 2 days and nights, and wasn't able to stop thinking about where it could be. I don't know if anyone here understands ADHD, but this is a common theme, losing stuff. There are some plus sides, but this is one of the most annoying, most frustrating aspects.
I was really wound up, and in a foul mood with myself for a couple of days, and with impulsivity being another trait of ADHD, I thought to myself "Right, just buy yourself another one, and write the old one off, because it's not worth the mental agonising", and it was the day before my birthday. I figured if the old one turned up, I'll have a spare, or I can resell one. I do understand how difficult this might be to comprehend, but please bear with me, such is life this end, and although I try and take a humorous outlook on it, me, at times it really isn't funny :rolleyes:
I was once away for a few days, and as the police always say, 'don't make it easy for them' I hid my bike keys in a safe place. On my return, it took 8 days to find them.
Yesterday, I found the old driveshaft :thewife: :violent1: :weiner: :boxing: I must have tripped on it in the dark and not remembered doing so, or something, as it had gone under my yard gate and sitting there in the side ally.
So yes, now I have a choice of 2 driveshafts. This one off ebay from a '94 model, which, if the original, has seen a far quieter life than mine, the condition is near perfect. This may be the difference between an all year round bike, and a summer only bike, I don't know. These are the only 2 guzzi drive shafts I've seen, so I don't know what exactly would be normal from a near 25yr old bike.
So, another £69 spent on ebay :rolleyes: I assume I'd be better fitting the better one, seeing as I have a choice :violent1:
(https://i.ibb.co/7SWqcwr/20230922-015235-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7SWqcwr)
(https://i.ibb.co/PGwmCjD/20230922-015350-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PGwmCjD)
So there you go, I'm a proper fk-wit at times :drool:, but I hope this doesn't put anyone off, because as you can see, I need the help :rolleyes:, and it really is greatly appreciated. This is probably the most embarrassing post I'm ever likely to post. I could have kept it to myself I guess, but it is what is and I'd rather be open than worry about covering my tracks.
Anway, moving right along :rolleyes: If I feel the need to get in the bevel box at any point, it's something that's easy to get at to remove it as and when.
As regards the rubber boot, that was my first suspicion too, but on inspection, I can find no cracking or tears in the rubber at all, and the holding bands were fixed as they should've been. This is what made me think the damage to the pinion shaft might be from a previous time, but I'm not at all sure about that as the carrier bearing was totally rusted out internally.
I have bought a new boot, because I thought the old one was probably a bit stiff with age, but when the new one arrived, there was little or no difference in the stiffness. Once the new one arrived I checked the old one more thoroughly, really stretching it to see if I could find a break in its integrity, but I could find nothing to indicate a leak, not even fine cracking on the surface. Obviously though I'll fit the new one when putting it back together :wink:
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Here's the stuck wheel bearing, the brake disc side, which stands to reason, being the more exposed to road salts and the elements.
It's really stuck fast. You can see the corrosive crud on the circlip here. The bearing is clearly suffering from the same.
(https://i.ibb.co/c89w2KM/20230921-170623-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c89w2KM)
This won't budge it
(https://i.ibb.co/D9xYBtP/20230921-171311-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D9xYBtP)
Lots of WD40 a good wire brushing, and after a lot of thwacks with the slide hammer, it's still clinging to the wheel hub for dear life. So it looks like some heat is my best option from here
(https://i.ibb.co/Q9GfLzW/20230921-202607-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q9GfLzW)
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The slide hammer in the picture is a bit on the light weight side. I would be looking to reach in from the other side with a round rod and contact the bearing. If the spacer is in there it should move to the side enough to get the rod onto the bearing center section. Then a hammer with a good three plus pounds to strike the rod. Rust can really hold tight so striking with a heavy hammer should get that bearing moving.
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The slide hammer in the picture is a bit on the light weight side. I would be looking to reach in from the other side with a round rod and contact the bearing. If the spacer is in there it should move to the side enough to get the rod onto the bearing center section. Then a hammer with a good three plus pounds to strike the rod. Rust can really hold tight so striking with a heavy hammer should get that bearing moving.
Yes, I was having to do all the work I reckon, a heavier slide hammer would certainly offer a lot more for a lot less. Still, I was surprised not to shift it though, perhaps because the easy side came out easier :laugh: :laugh:
I'll give it a pop from the other side, the spacer is out. There's not a great deal of the edge to hit it, except for a small area big enough to take a smallish punch. Would it be a bad idea, in such circumstances, to have a couple of holes drilled through opposite each other so you could hit the outer race? . . . Not in the sense I'm thinking of doing that :laugh: :laugh:, I mean during manufacture.
Another thing I'm a bit bamboozled by, is that the original uj crosses were, I believe, 50mm x 22mm, and we can only get ones that are 50.2mm or 49mm. I know 50.2mm isn't much difference from 50mm, but it's enough of a difference to require thinning the external circlips for them to fit in the yoke. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but is it safe to be thinning the circlips, considering what they're holding in place.
The place in Germany where I got mine from informed me that they were Italian manufacturer's crosses and the same ones Guzzi themself use, and the packet was marked up Cali 1100 etc, but they weren't 50mm, they were 50.2, the same as is available elsewhere . . . at considerably less cost.
I'd have thought that Guzzi would have used a generic uj cross, rather than manufacturing their own specific size, and wonder why the 50mm aren't available. I'd be interested to know how well the 49mm x 22mm crosses fit, which are also listed as being for the Guzzi, whether they fit easier, yet snuggly held by the circlips, maybe thicker ones, if the groove goes deep enough. I'd have thought it's probably one of the last places you want to be playing with tolerances.
Sorry, just airing some puzzling thoughts I've had of late. :huh:
I'm still in awe of the Cardan uj's ability and durability. That really is some piece of sublime engineering. I remember thinking the same when working on the farm when I was in my late teens early 20's, where all mechanical implements operated by open drive shafts and uj's. I've never had much cause to think about them that much since then, until now, and at 62, I'm still thinking 'Wow, that really is some sublime bit of kit, is that!". :bow: :laugh: :laugh:
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If the difference is only .2 mm (0.008") I'd have been tempted to dust .1 mm (0.004") off the end of each bearing cap. That's almost an emery cloth job. Certainly a quick minute with a belt sander (If you own a micrometer).
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For the wheel bearing. Your replacing it anyway. So just whack away at the inner ring, don't worry about hitting the outer ring. Installing, hit only the outer to push it in.
Sure looks like water damage. Normally a bad rubber boot would cause this. Not sure of your history with the bike, but makes me think that someone just replaced the rubber boot and ignored the rest. And then, you see what happened. Put the new boot on, your in there this deep, don't want to have to do it again anytime soon.
Don't be so down on yourself. It's funny the way you bring it up though, funny in a very nice way :smiley:
You are doing very good with the resources you have.
The new drive shaft and coupler looks very nice, Run it.
Tom
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If the difference is only .2 mm (0.008") I'd have been tempted to dust .1 mm (0.004") off the end of each bearing cap. That's almost an emery cloth job. Certainly a quick minute with a belt sander (If you own a micrometer).
That's a very cool idea, but no, I don't have micrometers.
That makes a good point though, the circlips I've ground down were not measured at all, I just made them all thinner, and no doubt to varying degrees :huh: :rolleyes:
And oddly enough, I just came across this video, it's from an in depth series on uj's and propshafts. He's a bit slow getting through stuff, but interesting all the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10BhHuwnQ7I
It's a segment on centering and adjusting axial play in uj's, and it seems that many uj's come with circlips or G-clips etc, of varying thicknesses for adjusting the axial play. It seems that'd be a good idea in the case of the 50.2mm and, if the circlip groove is deep enough, the 49mm I imagine. Or maybe work out the thickness needed for the guzzi yokes and see if they're manufactured to that size, if so, it could be quite a useful resource for forums such as this. The thing is though, I'm sure I took more than 0.1mm off the circlips, and I still think it's a bit tight, and giving some preload, certainly no detectable axial play.
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For the wheel bearing. Your replacing it anyway. So just whack away at the inner ring, don't worry about hitting the outer ring. Installing, hit only the outer to push it in.
Sure looks like water damage. Normally a bad rubber boot would cause this. Not sure of your history with the bike, but makes me think that someone just replaced the rubber boot and ignored the rest. And then, you see what happened. Put the new boot on, your in there this deep, don't want to have to do it again anytime soon.
Don't be so down on yourself. It's funny the way you bring it up though, funny in a very nice way :smiley:
You are doing very good with the resources you have.
The new drive shaft and coupler looks very nice, Run it.
Tom
Ah thank you mate, I appreciate your words there. When I fk up like that, I do get down on myself pretty bad, it's really frustrating at times, but I feel it and let it go pretty quickly. I specifically have a box for keeping all of the parts together in one place, as I'm sure most people would, specifically to avoid things like this happening, but hey ho, it's not a bullet proof protection for me :wink: :laugh:
And no, don't worry about finding it funny, I often laugh out loud at my own "duh!" moments, not always in the moment when it's something important, you know, like missing afternoon tea with the vicar :laugh:, but they're none the less amusing with time or objectivity.
In this case, the bonus is the excellent condition of the new shaft and coupler, hopefully it might take up a bit of slack, given the erosion of the pinion shaft splines.
I find it hard to work out what's gone on here. I agree, it looks like wet corrosion, but at the same time, had signs of ample grease, all be it old and deteriorated grease that had a consistency similar to a soft clay. Squished between the fingers, it was definitely grease. The photograph of the eroded spline was post brushing with white spirits. So I wonder, did this suffer from being very wet for a good length of time, and was then greased up, prior to me buying it, with like you say maybe a bad boot replaced. Or has this all occurred under my ownership? Or maybe even a mixture of the two.
I've had the bike over 9yrs, never had the swing arm off, which sounds like a long time for the bearing to eventually rust out completely, if due to moisture contamination prior to my ownership. But the boot seems to be absolutely intact, so where would so much moisture have got into the swing arm whilst I've had the bike, especially to the extent of keeping the pinion shaft in a permanently wet state? Perhaps I should inspect all welds and joins for cracks or little holes, no harm to check, but I'd think that very unlikely.
The other thing that I find totally perplexing though, is why is there no erosion on the pinion shaft directly beneath/behind its circlip, even where the mouth opening of the circlip shows zero signs of corrosion whatsoever, and there's nothing there that acts as, or is protected by, any seal that I can figure out. If there was that much water just laying in there, how would it not pollute the rear drive's oil, which would appear obvious in the state of the oil, which has always looked fine when I've changed it, as it did when it leaked out the other day. This really leaves me scratching my head in bemusement, why does the erosion stop dead at the pinion shaft's circlip like that? :shocked:
I know I have to deal with what is regardless, but I really would like to figure out what's gone on exactly, and how, simply because I just can't make any sense of it. I can see it's happened, but there seems to be anomalies that don't compute, to me.
I don't know how the pinion shaft splines will fair in time, one or two of the splines appear thinner than the others, and I imagine any play in the mating join of the spline and coupler would surely accelerate future wear. I'll clean it further, treat with jenolite rust remover, and finally coat with a decent smear of red n tacky grease on assembly, along with the fresher coupler, and hopefully, it'll do the job for a good while to come. . . . fingers crossed :rolleyes:
Yes, no worries Tom, I'll be using the new boot, it may have to be there some time :grin:
You can see clearly in this photo that beneath the circlip is corrosion free, even in the channel that runs through the circlip opening, the only stuff there is some detritus from the white spirit and toothbrush, over clean smooth shiny steel as per the neighbouring channels, the circlip and above are badly affected, totally perplexing :shocked:
Thanks, Mart
(https://i.ibb.co/Jm6dRwm/20230917-142828-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jm6dRwm)
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A long shot I imagine, but grease incompatibility?
There looked like there had been loads of grease in the swingarm housing, the whole internal surfaces were caked in it, but when scraped off it crumbled like soil, not to powder, but close. Perhaps just because the grease was 9yrs+ old.
I was just reading about the mixing of some greases can cause oil drop out and caking up of the grease, which is how I'd describe the plentiful remnants of grease.
Maybe I'm way over thinking, but it was along the lines of it being specifically the greased areas only that have been affected.
This shows well, how the grease had caked up on the wall of the swing arm, and what really surprises me, is the sheer quantity of it. The liquid you can see is WD40 used to try and free the jammed circlip, it was originally all dry on removal. It looks like it's something that's just been dug out of the garden. How on earth did so much cruddy, crumbly caked grease get deposited in that amount I can't imagine. More perplexion :shocked:
(https://i.ibb.co/9sLzYwr/20230824-034851-1-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9sLzYwr)
(https://i.ibb.co/bBVc1hJ/20230826-164935-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bBVc1hJ)
I took it to a local jet wash and gave it a blasting to get rid of the crap, before fitting the bearing of course. You'll be able to notice that this crap is the same reddish colour as is seen on the pinion shaft, drive shaft and uj, that would initially appear to be rust in a photo, but although there are clear signs of erosion. the actual colouration on the pinion shaft is down to this sticky caked on crap of whatever description it is and not so much rust. I'll have another clean up before long, and only use a nylon brush, as I did last time, so that I don't scrape off any signs of rust, and take a pic and a closer examination, but I'm pretty certain I'm correct in thinking that there's little or no recent surface rust.
This is what's made me wonder if the damage had been done, and subsequently greased liberally, before it ever reached my hands.
Of course, I'm not trying to pinpoint a cause, to avoid it being down to my responsibility. I had from the start, figured all my woes were down to my own neglect of the drive train, and not recognising earlier signs of problems.
Such as when I was travelling at 80mph and over, (I imagine, cos I wouldn't go breaking no speed limits, oh no, no siree!) my feet would feel a lot of vibration and slide outwards on the footboards, and I'd have to keep lifting my foot up and reposition it, and when I thought back on it, I only have memories of it being on the RH side foot, which I've gathered would be where it'd be most noticeable if something goes awry in the drive shaft/uj etc.
The thing is, I can't remember a time when it didn't do that, and thought that was just a part of riding an old school big thumping twin. If that was always a sign of drive train issues, as it sounds like it may have been, one thing for sure is that the issue lasted a seriously long time, as in several years, before finally culminating in the trouble I've been dealing with here. I'm a fairly low mileage rider as a rule, but still :shocked:.
That means that if I was the type to occasionally break the speed limit on a perfect, open, camera free, road, I could well have been doing a ton a few times with a dodgy drive train :shocked: :rolleyes:. In which case, my woes could have been one hell of a lot worse, and perhaps I ended up with the softest way of learning an important lesson here.
All that bloody caked up soil like mixture in the swing arm, and the corrosion stopping at the corroded circlip on the pinion shaft, what is all that about? (thinking out loud)
Thanks if you've stuck with my ramblings here, any thoughts, please feel free :smiley:
Thanks again, Mart
Edit :- Or maybe there's a much simpler explanation that I'm missing here. The bevel drive could have been placed, pinion shaft down, in a container that had a water level regularly maintained at around 2 inches for a couple of years, before being fitted on my bike. . . . . Yeah of course, that'll be it, silly me :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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I've had the bike over 9yrs, never had the swing arm off, which sounds like a long time for the bearing to eventually rust out completely, if due to moisture contamination prior to my ownership.
Thanks, Mart
You have, of course, nailed it completely in that sentence, I can speculate on prior years but those 9 are yours
The next 50 are the important ones
Love it and it will love you, neglect at your peril
Do not waste any more time nor money, neither should you ever expect fkd bits to last
Have a butchers inside drive box, pinion housing just pulls out, if teeth missing it’s maybe too late
If all good , grease splines nicely, I’d prob weld sleeve to pinion but if not really sloppy grease’ll do
Thing has been badly abused, treat it like dog or child, with love, forgiveness is possible
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You have, of course, nailed it completely in that sentence, I can speculate on prior years but those 9 are yours
The next 50 are the important ones
Love it and it will love you, neglect at your peril
Do not waste any more time nor money, neither should you ever expect fkd bits to last
Have a butchers inside drive box, pinion housing just pulls out, if teeth missing it’s maybe too late
If all good , grease splines nicely, I’d prob weld sleeve to pinion but if not really sloppy grease’ll do
Thing has been badly abused, treat it like dog or child, with love, forgiveness is possible
"Thing has been badly abused, treat it like dog or child, with love, forgiveness is possible" . . Haha, thanks mate, love that :thumb:
Ah I see, to inspect the drive box, it just means separating the flange from the drive housing. I thought it involved a complete strip down of the box, which I'd read about and seemed fairly complicated. I'll see about having a go at that tmro or Monday.
I just read Pete Roper's piece 'rear drive tear down' and in the procedure for checking pinion shaft bearings he mentions about where there shouldn't be any play discernable, but I didn't quite understand it.
On mine there's 1mm or so play in the shaft rotational direction, but there's zero play if trying to pull it out and push it in, and I'll check again, but I don't think there was any play in being able to rock the shaft. Everything feels smooth when rotating it by hand.
Am I right in thinking there should be no play whatsoever in normal rotational movement?
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, no discernible play, bearings are shimmed and that big nut is tight
But there must be some backlash between gears.
Get the flange out and all becomes obvious
If tight, don’t chisel it apart, hold pinion shaft with soft jaw grips and belt box off with rubber hammer
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I think that what is being said. Is to pull the pinion carrier out of the bevel box. You can then look at the teeth on the pinion as well as the ring gear. If all looks good, your "probably" fine.
Before removing the pinion carrier, mark the bevel box and carrier so that you know which way to slide the carrier back in. As you noticed, there are holes/slits for oil to flow.
On the rust......Your pics sure look like rust, Like rust that I would find on bare steel constantly dunked in and out of ocean salt water. But your saying that it's just the dried out grease making it look like serious rust. If it's just grease, not idea how it got that way :huh: So I should take back my water in through the U joint boot thought.
The pinion splines as pictured look like they are eaten away by rust. But as you mention, they look perfect below the clip. So that kinda throws out my sitting in water idea.
You live in a place where it rains at least once or twice a year :grin:, so water came to mind.
On the swingarm....I do not consider removing the swingarm a normal maintenance job. A good grease in the pivot bearings will last many years. For the drive shaft. Some will pull the bevel box off the swingarm every, or every few rear tire changes to grease the splines on the drive shaft. But, at every tire change, the grease in the wheel to bevel box should be added. Some will also clean these splines so that no contamination is left, then grease them.
Spline grease may have been covered already. But, Wurth SIG 3000 grease is generally the go to for splines, except the trans input splines. There are spline greases from BMW and Honda (not sure it you can get Honda anymore) that do a great job. Lacking this, I would think that a "tacky" grease would suffice. and lacking that I would use Permatex silver anti-sieze. That I would consider a VERY light dusting on the trans input shaft.
Tom
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, no discernible play, bearings are shimmed and that big nut is tight
But there must be some backlash between gears.
Get the flange out and all becomes obvious
If tight, don’t chisel it apart, hold pinion shaft with soft jaw grips and belt box off with rubber hammer
Thanks, I've got my rubber mallet out of my camping gear, I'll have a go at removing the pinion carrier and report back :thumb:
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I think that what is being said. Is to pull the pinion carrier out of the bevel box. You can then look at the teeth on the pinion as well as the ring gear. If all looks good, your "probably" fine.
Before removing the pinion carrier, mark the bevel box and carrier so that you know which way to slide the carrier back in. As you noticed, there are holes/slits for oil to flow.
On the rust......Your pics sure look like rust, Like rust that I would find on bare steel constantly dunked in and out of ocean salt water. But your saying that it's just the dried out grease making it look like serious rust. If it's just grease, not idea how it got that way :huh: So I should take back my water in through the U joint boot thought.
The pinion splines as pictured look like they are eaten away by rust. But as you mention, they look perfect below the clip. So that kinda throws out my sitting in water idea.
You live in a place where it rains at least once or twice a year :grin:, so water came to mind.
On the swingarm....I do not consider removing the swingarm a normal maintenance job. A good grease in the pivot bearings will last many years. For the drive shaft. Some will pull the bevel box off the swingarm every, or every few rear tire changes to grease the splines on the drive shaft. But, at every tire change, the grease in the wheel to bevel box should be added. Some will also clean these splines so that no contamination is left, then grease them.
Spline grease may have been covered already. But, Wurth SIG 3000l grease is generally the go to for splines, except the trans input splines. There are spline greases from BMW and Honda (not sure it you can get Honda anymore) that do a great job. Lacking this, I would think that a "tacky" grease would suffice. and lacking that I would use Permatex silver anti-sieze. That I would consider a VERY light dusting on the trans input shaft.
Tom
Thanks Tom.
I don't have any reason to suspect damage to the gearing teeth in the bevel box, with the rusting not reaching the bevel box side of the pinion shaft circlip, the oil ran clear when it seeped out, and it rotates smoothly by hand, but it seems an easy enough task to inspect it whilst apart, it'd be daft if I didn't.
It could have sustained some damage when the carrier bearing collapsed and the subsequent clunking that occurred, so I'm very happy to inspect and see. If there's damage, I need to know, if there's no damage, I'll have the peace of mind in knowing that with certainty. Fingers crossed, it's the latter.
On the rust. I have no doubt that the pinion shaft has suffered from rusting away, as you say, so much so that it looks like it's been in and out of sea water, or here in the UK, the salted roads in winter. How that's happened without going beyond that circlip is a complete mystery to my mind, but it's no doubt had serious corrosion issues for a sustained period of time at some point. The only reason I have some question over how it occurred, is that the corrosion stops dead at the circlip, and I can't figure out just how that can be the case. I'm not disputing the fact that it is badly corroded though, I can see clearly that is the case somehow, and just trying to figure out how.
This pic shows best how it's corroded badly as far as the circlip, then the other side pretty much looking like it did when it came out of the Mandello factory.
(https://i.ibb.co/0p7JKdr/20230916-200027-1-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0p7JKdr)
As regards the colour of the grease, the colour is certainly confusing things to some extent, but here, you can see the same grease had been used on the teeth of the drive connection between the wheel hub and the bevel box. There is no corrosion anywhere in this shot, so there is absolutely no rust influencing the colour of the grease here. Please bear in mind that the wetness here is not the result of any oil leaking, it's because I've applied mineral/white spirits to clean the old grease off, prior to regreasing. The grease here was mostly caked dry before this. Hopefully this might give you an idea of how the colour of grease is inaccurately making it look like red rust all over the surface of the pinion splines.
(https://i.ibb.co/Jn5DrjR/20230916-200316-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jn5DrjR)
For anyone skimming through the pics, there's not a chance of any rust contamination in this photo, and the wetness is due to mineral/white spirits I've applied for cleaning off the old grease, not due to any oil seepage.
Thinking this through, possible explanations I've imagined are that water has trickled down the drive shaft, and got trapped in the coupler, but not enough water to build up and enter the bevel box or affect the box side of the circlip. Not really sure that'd be possible really, but perhaps the oil circulating from the bevel box has been enough to keep that side of the circlip free of corrosion.
Or perhaps, a long time ago, the grease was applied without first cleaning and ensuring it was dry, so moisture was trapped against the shaft, allowing it to continue eating away at it.
Or, it's simply the deterioration of the grease over time has allowed water to penetrate and attack the splines. This still doesn't explain, to me, why it would stop at the circlip.
Or, and at the risk of just coming across like I just don't want it to be down to me :laugh: :laugh: I'm beginning to think the most likely case may be, that the main damage to the pinion splines was caused for whatever reason at some stage during its 19 years of life up to when I bought it 9 years ago, and that it had been given some treatment back then, having been well greased to prevent, or slow down, further damage. One other aspect, to my mind, that may support this, is that I'm wondering if the coupler might have been replaced back then as part of said treatment, because in comparison, the coupler's female splines are in a much better state than the pinion shaft splines. Where the pinion shaft has clear signs of wear damage, along with the corrosion, the coupler's angular splines, relatively speaking, look pretty much intact. In the pic here, although it's a bit grotty in there, you can see the form of the teeth really haven't been compromised, there's no uneven wear or chewed up areas, and of course again, there's been plenty of that same reddish coloured grease, all be it dried out, packed in there, which gives that dull red appearance to the end of the drive shaft at the back of the coupler recess.
(https://i.ibb.co/txB7mxS/20230922-014918-1a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/txB7mxS)
Even then, why not beyond the circlip is still a puzzle to me.
I have seen a couple of threads here where people have said that the boot is not very effective at keeping all the water out, even when it appears intact, along with advice to apply rubber grease, and or silicone to seal around where it's clamped to the motor and swing arm, so that may explain the water getting into the carrier bearing in my case.
I've also heard people say about water coming in via the boot and running down the swing arm to the pinion shaft area, it being downhill/stream etc, but how can this be with a tight fitting carrier bearing, and good snug fit between the uj and the inner carrier bearing race (in my case seized so tight that penetrating lube couldn't get in), without first breaking down the integrity of the bearing's seals and grease, or without so much water collecting above the carrier bearing, that it finds its way through the uj/driveshaft splines? Is that really possible without considerable water damage to the bearing first?
If I am thinking along the right lines re being previous damage, although it's natural to assume everything here is connected, it is quite feasible that the carrier bearing collapse I've experienced is not connected, and a completely different event to the pinion shaft damage, being separated by over 10yrs.
I couldn't find any significant fresh rust on examination, cleaning etc. Plenty of evidence of some pretty severe corrosion, but not actual surface rust, and this is where the murky red colouration to the grease causes some confusion. Of course the grease could have absorbed some of the rust, but still, if this was recent damage, I'd certainly have expected to find a considerable amount of very obvious rust, as I found with the remnants of the bearing internals, but I found none.
The evidence and my detective skills have pretty much convinced me that this must be the most likely explanation here, not most likely enough that I'd bet my bike on it, but it seems to make most sense.
Yes, I'd seen the Wurth SIG 3000l being highly recommended, but although I could find Wurth products in the UK, I couldn't locate any SIG 3000l anywhere in the UK. I've got some Red n Tacky grease which is, I believe, an aluminium complex grease, designed for high loads, fretting prevention etc, so I thought I'd give that a go, and check how it's doing. I also have some Granville cv joint moly grease, designed for CV joints, uj's and propshafts etc, but figured the tacky stuff might have more staying power when it comes to being flung off.
I got some red rubber grease for the boot too, must make sure I don't get that, and the red tacky stuff mixed up now :violent1: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Rain, yes, at least once or twice a year :laugh:, and salt on the roads in winter to prevent ice, makes Winter an arduous time for vehicles of any kind here :rolleyes:
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That is odd how it stopped at the clip. Could be as simple as a lousy grease was used?? Maybe it was Yak fat??? :evil:
Who knows how it happened. Maybe when a PO was working in there they were outside in a rain storm and the grease container filled with water and they used it anyways?
I had a typo on the Wurth SIG 3000 not 3000l. Sorry about that. I think the red and tacky will do the job just fine for all the splines your working on.
You doing a great job taking your time to make sure all is done up as best as it can be :thumb:
Tom
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That is odd how it stopped at the clip. Could be as simple as a lousy grease was used?? Maybe it was Yak fat??? :evil:
Who knows how it happened. Maybe when a PO was working in there they were outside in a rain storm and the grease container filled with water and they used it anyways?
I had a typo on the Wurth SIG 3000 not 3000l. Sorry about that. I think the red and tacky will do the job just fine for all the splines your working on.
You doing a great job taking your time to make sure all is done up as best as it can be :thumb:
Tom
I think I'll still be wondering about why the shaft beneath the circlip has avoided corrosion when I'm on my deathbed, it's such a puzzle to me :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: . . . . . And yes, Yak Fat . . . it seems as good a theory as any :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
No worries about the typo, I couldn't remember the exact lettering. I'd heard that Antietam Classic Cycle Charlie recommended the Wurth SIG3000, and tried to locate some, but despite finding UK Wurth stockists, I couldn't find it with any UK suppliers. Unless they've changed the name for the UK, but I can't see why they would.
Yes, I was hoping it'd be a quicker getting it sorted, but when I realised how much was involved, and the state of things, and my lack of experience with such matters, I knew I had to research things thoroughly and take my time, and follow some avenues of advice gratefully gained from you good folk on this forum, in order to feel confident, or at least confident enough, to take the work on with my limited tools, knowledge and lack of a workshop, working on the ground in my yard, or my kitchen floor, and transferring everything there that I work on from my back room, and putting it back there again afterwards (well except for that propshaft :rolleyes:). My folks are all good with that, and would rather I spend time to get it right, than rush it to get to see them, which took some pressure off. My two bros live near to them so all is good there.
I don't like to just do stuff without fully understanding what I'm doing and why, to the best I can, regardless of what it is, and I have no intention of getting rid of this bike unless it gets to a point where I get too old for the weight of it, so the better and more intimately I know the bike, the better. It's also getting me serious about acquiring a better selection of tools, and creating a workshop in my backroom that I can ride my bike into.
I was hoping to get the uj pressed into the swing arm this afternoon, but I have a problem with my boiler, and have had to shut off my water supply, so have the boiler man coming sometime this aft, so hopefully I'll get on that tomorrow. I've still got to finish building the uj, which I'm just about to do now. After which I'm going to try and remove the pinion drive from the bevel box.
Cheers, Mart
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Blimey, there are times when you have to realise you're kidding yourself, and there are times when you'd be much better off if you didn't kid yourself in the first place. I must be a proper cocky little fkr, always preferring to do as much as I can myself. I look at whatever the task is, and think to myself, if others can do it, I'll manage . . . tools etc or not :rolleyes:
To be honest, I've been procrastinating over building of the double uj after having such a difficult time just fitting one of the uj crosses to the first yoke, having managed to get a needle lie down, and then, due to the cups being such an extraordinarily tight fit, and after having tried every way feasible to disassemble again without causing damage, I had to chisel the cup off of the yoke, destroying it completely.
I got it fitted eventually, but wasn't altogether happy with it, it was as stiff as hell after pushing the cross in so much to get the standard circlips installed. Then thinning some circlips down for an easier fit I got it freed off and moving, I could still sense the a slight grating needle feel to part of its travel. Maybe from having put too much pressure on the end of the cups to fit the original, I'm not sure.
So yesterday I set about building the UJ, and went through the fitting procedure joining the driveshaft end yoke to the central double yoke. This time, being ultra careful to ensure that all of the needles all stayed in place. I pressed the first cap in using the vice, and everything was fine, I pushed the new cross into it and gave it a good squeeze to ensure the seal would compress, ensuring that the needles were all where they should be. I fitted a thinned circlip and then put the second cap in place, pressed it in a little way, and slid the cross over to this side to check there was no hang up with the needles, and then pressed it home.
I could see the seal on this side compress, so I knew there were no needles lying down, but I couldn't get even the thinned circlip to fit on the second cup, the groove not being exposed enough, even though it was pressed in as far as it would go. Imagine my dismay when examining the problem to find that on the first end I'd pressed in, the seal was not and would not compress! Feck, Feck, Feck!!!
So I can only assume that when I slid the cross to the otherside to check all was going in smoothly, it must have travelled far enough to allow for at least one needle to fall or be pulled out of place, and lie down in the end of the cup :cry: . . . . So here I am in the same place I was in on my first aborted attempt, despite focusing specifically on trying to ensure this very thing did not happen ... again :sad:
To say I'm feeling frustrated and down hearted is a bit of an understatement.
Either I'm not having enough respect for the job and the skills involved, or the Guzzi crosses are just extremely difficult, or the holes in my yokes have bent themselves out of true, making the cups an excessively tight fit. I don't even know if the latter is even possible.
The principles behind a uj refurb really don't seem like rocket science to me though, supposedly designed to be a relatively easy to service. I watched countless videos on how to install uj's, but they're all on bigger vehicles, land Rovers, Jeeps, SUV's etc, all of which I'd feel confident in tackling, because there's a lot more room for manoeuvre, where as with the compact Guzzi uj, there's virtually none, and from what I could see, if they have a needle go over, it's an easy enough job to disassemble and correct the needles and simply reassemble again, without fkn the caps up leaving a new cross unuseable.
I'd love to see a video of someone refurbishing a Guzzi uj, but I haven't found one. I'd get an idea if mine was more of a struggle than the norm, which due to my lack of experience in dealing with them, I've nothing to really gauge it on.
On these bigger uj's it seems that when you press through from one side, there's enough of the opposite side cup pushed through that you can easily get the full jaws of a pair of mole grips on the cap, and with a bit of twisting, just pull them out. Where as with the Guzzi cross, you get between an 1/8 to a 1/4 inch through, and even clamped in a strong vice and tapped with a hammer, or trying to twist it, won't see that sucker budge. The only way I could get mine off was with many, many hammer blows on a chisel, which does the cup no good at all. I am referring to a new one here, after the yoke orifices had been deburred and had a light sanding with a dremel sanding post to cut through any crap that could interfere with the proceedings.
Should the Guzzi fit really be as tight as gnat's chuff, ie. impossibly tight. I'd really class at least my particular uj as being virtually impossible to extract the cups from without causing irreparable damage to the cross.
This is why the angle grinder was deployed when removing the old crosses, and this only after a good amount of effort had been exerted in the attempt to remove them, resulting only in a good long stint of hammer and chiselling just to remove the first cup. It feels to me that they're beyond ridiculously tight. I really don't see how any one could physically remove a new fitted cup from my uj if a needle was in error and laying at the end of the cup. As regards a needle lying down, I ran all the checks, kept every movement smooth and made sure everything was aligned.
I know there was no needle lying down when I first pushed the cross into the first pressed in cap, as I could squeeze it in by hand and compress the seal, which wouldn't compress if a needle was preventing the cup from being fully seated, so the only time the needle could have fallen, is when I moved the cross as far to the opposite side as possible when trying and ensure the opposite cup accepted the cross trunnion as I pressed it in. Either way I'd done it though, there'd be an equal chance of a needle falling over.
I'm guessing that when pushing the cross over from one side to the other, the suction and the grease has probably pulled a needle, or needles with it. But still, needles falling over when fitting a uj can happen to the best apparently, even if very occasionally, and disassembly and reassembly should surely be a workable out.
The crosses, supposedly the ones Guzzi have used, cost me just shy of 130 euros, a couple of needles going over is one hell of an expensive mistake to make. I can't help but think it's unreasonable to accept that, seeing as it's such a simple and well known error, well known because it's a common enough fault. But here I am having to suck lemons.
I'll just have to write the 130 euros off that I spent on the crosses, and the hours I've put into prepping the uj etc. I still have a single unused cross, but a fat lot of good that'll do for me, as I've just forked out £175 for a new complete uj, and take it as a life lesson as I vowed to myself that I'll never attempt to refurbish a Guzzi uj for the rest of my sodding days :rolleyes:
I've also decided that I'm going to take the UJ and swing arm to an engineering company to get the uj set in the carrier bearing. I don't want to risk fkn that up at this stage.
Also, regards the pinion shaft carrier. I gave the box some real sturdy blows with a rubber mallet but nothing has shifted there either. However, I've now decided to scrap that job. The reason I was advised to do so in the first place, was because the fear that water, gunk and corrosion had made it down there and polluted the bevel drive reservoir and, as a result, possibly caused damage to the gears and bearings, but it's clear that the corrosion only affected the pinion shaft where the coupler was attached, then nothing between the shaft circlip and the bearings/bevel housing, and the oil that seeped out was translucent like honey, which would indicate that there has been no water contamination.
It also feels totally smooth to turn the gears for enough full rotations to cover the whole of the large gear wheel by hand, so taking all of this into account, there really is nothing at all, to suggest that there's any issue with the rear drive, there is no in and out play on the shaft, and the movement in direction of rotation, I can't actually discern a distance measurement on the shaft backlash, but can feel that there is a slight amount, through the sense of touch, which at a guess might be a mm or so at the actual gears, which seems to be the norm, as far as I can tell, certainly nothing to raise concerns. Of course if there are any lumps of metal when I remove the drain plug, it'll be a different matter, but I have no particular reason to suspect that there will be any.
The last thing I need right now is to take on unnecessary tasks for no particular reason. I hope to get my bike in the back room for a month or two this winter, so that's something I can do then if I want to.
The hammer and drift shifted the stubborn wheel bearing ok.
(https://i.ibb.co/NNRPBNV/20230925-215213-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NNRPBNV)
It wasn't stuck fast due to the bearing rusting after all, it had some sort of really solid and effective bearing retaining glue. The circlip groove being filled with the stuff explains why the circlip needed bending out of shape to remove too. So I think I can bring that bearing out of the freezer, because if anything, it's going to be a sloppy fit. One of my front bearings was also a loose fit, but 4 pings with a punch has been enough to grip, but I'm not sure I'll be able to get the angle with the punch to get into the rear wheel hub housing. I do have some bearing retainer though.
(https://i.ibb.co/QJk9Skv/20230925-214804-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QJk9Skv)
(https://i.ibb.co/5r56B7w/20230925-215526-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5r56B7w)
Is there any distinct preference for an effective protective treatment for coating the inside wall of the driveshaft tunnel of the swing arm?
I assume a long lasting, heavy duty spray grease, but is any particular type favoured. I don't seem to be able to find Red n Tacky spray grease in the UK.
Cheers, Mart
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Four pings with a punch will not retain a loose wheel bearing in the hub.
RC680 Loctite applied to a thoroughly cleaned bore and bearing probably will retain the bearing in the hub.
Just replaced 3 universals on my Ural. Laid a roller over in a cup two separate times. Urals come apart easier so I saved the cups. There are a lot easier jobs than installing universal spiders. A lot of the bigger universals have split mountings. Makes life easy.
(https://i.ibb.co/bJZXHcj/Universal-Joint-Drive-Shaft-1-e1574790726158-790x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bJZXHcj)
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Many many many moons ago I tried to find U joints to fit the Guzzi when I work for an auto parts supplier for repair shops. Never could find the right ones back then. I did take one apart just to see if I could.
The Guzzi U joint IMHO is not repairable, though it can be done. I just came to the conclusion that I just need to bite the price and get a complete U Joint ready to install.
The carrier should with a bit of persuasion slide out. There could be some gasket goop holding it together. BUT THEN AGAIN, it it all feels fine and the gear oil does not look milky, maybe just run it. Make it a winter project.
Tom
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Four pings with a punch will not retain a loose wheel bearing in the hub.
RC680 Loctite applied to a thoroughly cleaned bore and bearing probably will retain the bearing in the hub.
Just replaced 3 universals on my Ural. Laid a roller over in a cup two separate times. Urals come apart easier so I saved the cups. There are a lot easier jobs than installing universal spiders. A lot of the bigger universals have split mountings. Makes life easy.
(https://i.ibb.co/bJZXHcj/Universal-Joint-Drive-Shaft-1-e1574790726158-790x1024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bJZXHcj)
Well it wasn't as loose as it looks like the above rear wheel bearing, but it wasn't a tight fit. The pings certainly gave it a much better grip, and I haven't had signs of play or being loose the last couple of times I did my pre MOT service/checks, and obviously the MOT's themselves. I can't recall exactly now as it was 2-3 yrs ago, so not exactly sure, but I think some retainer was used, though I can't remember what it was, it'd have been whatever my mate had on his workshop shelf. He was a Triumph chap and always a stickler for quality :wink: ... I miss the all night sessions we'd spend in his workshop.
Had to fit some temporary skinny handle bars to get through the narrow door
(https://i.ibb.co/nBTmC4q/IMG-0736-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nBTmC4q)
But worth the hassle for a night's work. I never liked all the plastic chrome make-up on the Guzzi's, or the huge plastic dash, and never had need of a rev counter in all my days
(https://i.ibb.co/txTB7Kr/IMG-0713-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/txTB7Kr)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yhr4Sq1/IMG-0715-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yhr4Sq1)
It was so good having a place with the tools for simple fabrication jobs, like a simplified dash out of an old alloy electrical box, and making a mount for a small speedo.
(https://i.ibb.co/5WFr3Sh/IMG-0727-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5WFr3Sh)
Ah, de-plastified and a more spacious, freer front end :grin:
(https://i.ibb.co/FnsxbHM/IMG-1100-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FnsxbHM)
Working in the backyard really isn't as much fun
I'll see just how well the bearing has fared in a couple of months when I get my bike in the back room, but there are no signs of an looseness. The rear end has will have been serviced when I get it back together, and I intend to do the front end too, I have steering head bearings to install, most probably fr wheel bearings, change the fork oil and brake fluids etc.
I'm glad you had a much easier experience with fitting uj's to the Ural, despite laying a couple of reedles over whilst doing so :thumb:
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I'm 78 next week. Been doing this stuff for a long time. Been making mistakes (and corrections) long before internet was available to point me in the correct direction. Every project is a lesson. The mistakes are tuition. Education is seldom free. But is always valuable.
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I'm 78 next week. Been doing this stuff for a long time. Been making mistakes (and corrections) long before internet was available to point me in the correct direction. Every project is a lesson. The mistakes are tuition. Education is seldom free. But is always valuable.
Yep, I figure that if I screw it up, whatever it takes to set it right is the price of that lesson. In fact I just got a lesson on roll up garage doors that while it didn’t cost anything, I did screw it up the first time I replaced door rollers. I took the bottom roller bracket loose without realizing the cable is attached to it. Now I am familiar with it and hopefully there aren’t more exciting things to learn about it. I have three more doors to do…
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Many many many moons ago I tried to find U joints to fit the Guzzi when I work for an auto parts supplier for repair shops. Never could find the right ones back then. I did take one apart just to see if I could.
The Guzzi U joint IMHO is not repairable, though it can be done. I just came to the conclusion that I just need to bite the price and get a complete U Joint ready to install.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree with that myself, but at the same time, I think we must both be wrong. Otherwise you've got to ask the question, why are the crosses supplied for them, including from a renowned specialist Guzzi parts supplier, if it's practically impossible to refurbish them, or at least impossible to recover from making a simple, common, sometimes unavoidable problem, of a fallen needle/s. I'm sure that would fail some laws on the sale of an item that doesn't fit the description. I mean, can you sell parts for something that isn't quite the right size for something that isn't even serviceable? In most areas of business you can't do that.
I can see that it might be possible, but to take on the job as a mechanic, you'd have to be pretty damn certain that a needle won't lie down, and I don't think there's anyway of knowing until it's too late. Having to tell the customer that you've fkd the job and the parts up, or have to fork out cash to replace the parts damaged, would be embarrassing, and costly They're going to tell the customer to get a new uj, or worse still just turn around and start running at the mere mention of a Guzzi uj repair/replacement.
I was thinking, it may be a lot easier with the 49mm crosses that are also listed fo Guzzi's, if that is, that the circlip grooves are deep enough in for them to be held snuggly, because, if a needle laid itself down, you'd maybe, but only maybe, have enough room to maneuver and remove the cross to correct it, which is the most impossible thing about the 50.2mm ones. I'm not convinced that 1.2mm would make enough difference though.
Also, I just can't see any reason why the new cup needs to be so tight in the yoke, that it needs driving off again with damaging chisel blows if something needs resetting. I know it needs to be a good snug fit, but only tight enough so that the path of least resistance in the designed movement is always found in the needle bearings. The pressure that these cups are cramped under when pressed in, seems excessively over the top by a high degree to accomplish that, and certainly tighter than many other vehicle manufacturers spec.
I think the holes in the yoke must be able to be opened a tad, so they're still a tight, but not a totally immovable grip. It is simply this one aspect that makes the uj's unserviceable by any home mechanic. If you could, with some reasonable effort, remove the cup again in the event of a fallen needle, there would be no problem at all. I'm no expert mechanic or engineer, but this seems so glaringly obvious, even to me, after my experience in this.
Another thing I don't find very acceptable, is that Guzzi specialists will sell the uj crosses for a specific bike, supplied with circlips that are absolutely impossible to fit in the uj's that they're supposedly purporting to fit. I can't see as that would pass in many other areas of commerce. Ok you may think I'm being a grumpy fkr here, but just based on the straight up logic that if you buy a direct replacement part, especially when it's a part of vital precision engineering, one doesn't expect to have to modify the parts to make it a bodge fit. Not an unfair appraisal really, I feel.
I'm pretty sure a court of law would agree with the plaintive if such a case was heard, not that I'm contemplating, or suggesting, that as a good idea, I just mean from the point of view of reasoned logic as to whether something is deemed reasonable or not.
If cash wasn't a problem, I'd buy a 49mm, just for curiosity's sake to see if it's more doable, but ah well it's not going to happen. Unless I can talk a company into giving me one to try, on the basis that it's crazy to sell both the 50.2mm and the 49mm crosses on the basis that they're both sold to fit the same uj, a glaring anomaly that exists on multiple supplier's product lists. Another anomaly is that one supplier lists the 49mm cross for the Guzzi Spada 900, a model that has never even existed :huh:
I did run a sanding post around the inside the yoke orifices to get them to bare steel, but I didn't have the balls to try and open them out to loosen the holes any. I imagine proper lining up on a lathe would be the safe bet for that, but unless you have your own, it wouldn't be worth the expense. I perhaps should give it a try by hand though, on the other half of the now useless uj and now just as useless new unharmed cross, which if successful would give me the option of buying another cross and making up a spare uj (unlikely to need in the foreseeable) or more likely, scrap it and used to make tools for locking the lay shaft or pinion shaft. I remember reading somewhere, that can be useful for some job or another.
Cheers, Guzzi Grump Mart :rolleyes:
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I'm 78 next week. Been doing this stuff for a long time. Been making mistakes (and corrections) long before internet was available to point me in the correct direction. Every project is a lesson. The mistakes are tuition. Education is seldom free. But is always valuable.
Well yes, of course mate, as we hopefully all have in many different areas of life, but come, come now, like me, you've surely cussed and cursed your luck with frustration at times along the way :wink: :laugh: :laugh:
One of my early mistakes that I still easily recall today, is when I was 14 and managed to acquire an AJS 250 scrambler field bike. If I remember correctly, it had KTM front forks, and had an unusual and well worn flame red, yellow, and orange tank. I bought it as a none runner for £20. It'd fire up, then cut out. With a haynes manual for a different bike, I managed to suss how to strip and clean the carb, and it was up and running, and was such a cool field bike for riding around the loads of square miles of local quarries.
About a month later, it packed up again, this time no sign of life at all, and I didn't have a clue, I was at the level of 'is there fuel' and 'has it got a spark' and I could set the points and that was about it. I persevered for a couple of weeks, but had no joy, and was sad to see that bike go when I sold it on to another lad for the same I paid for it. Only for a week later he had it up and running, or rather his dad did, when he easily discovered a missing woodruff key. . . . That was such a cool bike for a 14yr old tearaway to be riding :cool: :laugh:, lost for the sake of a little piece of metal the shape of a half moon. . . . I suppose I did benefit from understanding what a woodruff key did :rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh:
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Having rebuilt a BMW driveshaft for my 04, I was not completely happy with the results. I ended up with a used part for very little money that was in good condition. I put the rebuilt on the shelf for a spare. So if used parts can be sourced at reasonable prices they are a great way to keep your bike rolling. One note on when the swing arm is installed I would use a bit of loctite on the bearing caps and paint mark a spot. The spot makes it easy to see if it moves. I had a cap and bearing loosen and luckily I spotted it before it fell out.
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Bit of controversy here. I pour the whole liter of Amsoil Manual Transmission and Transaxle lube into my transmissions at change. Some of it always migrates out at the output shaft and ends up in the boot. This lubricates the splines, needle bearings and the swingarm bore ahead of the carrier bearing. Haven't lost a universal yet. Haven't had to fight corrosion to remove a carrier bearing.
I think the key is that the bit of extra oil keeps out moisture in the universal and creeps into any opening at the universal spiders.
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Having rebuilt a BMW driveshaft for my 04, I was not completely happy with the results. I ended up with a used part for very little money that was in good condition. I put the rebuilt on the shelf for a spare. So if used parts can be sourced at reasonable prices they are a great way to keep your bike rolling. One note on when the swing arm is installed I would use a bit of loctite on the bearing caps and paint mark a spot. The spot makes it easy to see if it moves. I had a cap and bearing loosen and luckily I spotted it before it fell out.
Yes, I'd seen used uj's for around £75, which would be £100 cheaper than the new one I bought, and about £230 cheaper than buying a couple of crosses, failing at fitting them, and then buying a new uj, doh :rolleyes:, but I didn't fancy a used one, as I wanted to do my best to ensure the job would last a long time. If I ever felt I was doing some serious travelling and felt it was worth taking a spare, I'd buy a used one no problem, but I don't intend on parting with my bike, I have no desire for others, with the exception of maybe a 250ish off roader for something light and nippy around the city, and a bit of nostalgic green laning, but my Guzzi will be my main bike as long as I can keep it that way, so I'll hopefully use it enough to maybe have to service it next time it's required, and may as well make that as many miles away as possible, but if I can make it last another 28yrs, I'd perhaps be prepared to give it up, I'd be 90 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
So yeah, I just thought buy new and be done with it. My original one would have been ok, but the state of things in there, I thought it would have suffered. The state was mostly cosmetic though, it felt fairly similar to the new one, and on inspecting the needle bearings and cups, after I'd dismantled them, they weren't in a bad state at all.
But I don't regret that decision, because it'd have been a concern when riding, particularly at high speed, the last time you want to have such concerns :wink:
I wanted to do a thorough job, and didn't want to fk the refurb crosses up, but you have to take the rough with the smooth, and when it's back together it's going to be smooth. Which is the best way, you don't want the rough bit at the end :laugh:
I like the idea re the paint spot, thanks :thumb:
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Bit of controversy here. I pour the whole liter of Amsoil Manual Transmission and Transaxle lube into my transmissions at change. Some of it always migrates out at the output shaft and ends up in the boot. This lubricates the splines, needle bearings and the swingarm bore ahead of the carrier bearing. Haven't lost a universal yet. Haven't had to fight corrosion to remove a carrier bearing.
I think the key is that the bit of extra oil keeps out moisture in the universal and creeps into any opening at the universal spiders.
Controversial, I imagine it to be so. Does the rear transmission even hold a litre, 250ml runs out the level hole, you can get 750ml above that, I'd have thought that'd be a struggle? I'm not surprised it finds its way into the swing arm through the vents though, but I've also heard of people having pressure build up issues and fitting pressure release valve replacement oil plugs to account for it. You've had no trouble with seals etc though?
If the trans oil is getting up to the uj and lubricating the actual needle bearings somehow, I'm not quite sure how it'd do that, but if it did, it'd mean that the oil would have flushed the grease out of the bearing. This is why many say it's not a great idea to soak them in oil before fitting, the only thing it can do by soaking it, would be for the oil to contaminate the grease, and at the same time, not really providing any benefit
I think I'll treat the trans as prescribed by Guzzi, and use a heavy duty tacky grease for internal protection.
I'm sure I've heard of a different set up on some Guzzi's, where oil travelled up the swing arm by design, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't achieved by intentionally overfilling the recommended oil level in the bevel drive.
Interesting though, thanks :thumb:
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Semantics, by transmission I mean the shifty thing up front ahead of the universal. It's outpot shaft isnt sealed and will pass some oil into the boot and wet the universal and splines.
I think of the thing at the rear wheel as the "final drive" from my BMW days.
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Hi guys, sorry I've been AWOL of late. I haven't given up or owt though :wink:
I've finally got the u j installed into the swing arm, and preparing for the rebuild.
I'll post about the u j install a little later, as it might be useful info for anyone caught out with the interference fit and no special tool.
However, I have a question for anyone with the experience that might recall this detail.
My concern is the swing arm bearing install. The drive side bearing doesn't seem to have gone in quite as far as the disk side. The difference in bearing seating depth is around 1mm.
The disk side has driven down to the full extent into sw arm's sleeved recess, but on the drive side I'm not so confident.
I cant recall there being a seating lip for the bearing to be seated on, in the drive side. I assumed it was driven fully onto what is the tube of the drive shaft housing. I'm not quite sure how accurate my thinking is though, I obviously managed to get the blind puller collet under the old bearing when pulling it.
Driving it in was tight, but I kept it staight ok, and used the old external race, slightly ground down to drive it in, as advised by Charlie.
I got it in as far as I could, and the "ding" sound when tapped with a hammer, sounds like it's seated, but I'm a bit confused by that, as I see no specific lip or edge, that its seated home onto. And measuring with the depth rule of the vernier gauge, shows the disk side to be seated about 1mm deeper than the drive side.
Can any one reassure me that this is within the norm, or whether indeed, it should be driven fully onto the driveshaft housing in the recess?
(https://i.ibb.co/QdpkJhW/20231005-233154-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QdpkJhW)
I imagine there can't be much leeway on the tolerances here, as they'll be specific to the set-up and running etc.
It's probably not very easy to tell from the photo, hence asking for someone with enough experience in fitting them, so as to be familiar with whether this is in fact within the norm, or if indeed it needs to go a tad further. . . . I have given it a few good solid thwacks, and it doesn't want to move any further, and I havent got it in at a cocked angle, the depth measurement is identical at all points around the outer edge.
Of course, I'm a bit concerned about reinstalling the swing arm until I'm sure things are correct.
Thanks, Mart
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It looks like it may have some crud underneath it . If you heat the outside you should be able to take the swing arm and whack it smarty on a wood block. The inertia should make the race move enough to get a puller or pry bar underneath it and pull it out without damaging anything. Clean the seat and reinstall.
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It looks like it may have some crud underneath it . If you heat the outside you should be able to take the swing arm and whack it smarty on a wood block. The inertia should make the race move enough to get a puller or pry bar underneath it and pull it out without damaging anything. Clean the seat and reinstall.
I could get a puller underneath as it is John. I could with the original old one I removed too. The thing is, when inspecting it closely with a dental mirror, I can see no crud obstructing the bearing race anywhere around the entire circumference.
I'll take another close look, and maybe do as you suggest, pull it again and refit, I'd applied a thin smear of grease to the race and housing, but I really don't think there's any obstruction to clear that's going to affect things (scratches head)
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Sounds like the race is in a happy place. The bearings are adjustable so I would concentrate on making the swingarm centered. Smooth and free with no play is what I aim for. Ride a few hundred miles and check, readjust if necessary. Paint dot the caps to know if they loosen on you.
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Sounds like the race is in a happy place. The bearings are adjustable so I would concentrate on making the swingarm centered. Smooth and free with no play is what I aim for. Ride a few hundred miles and check, readjust if necessary. Paint dot the caps to know if they loosen on you.
Thanks Mike, and John, yes it was happily seated, I pulled it back out a few mm had a good look around, found where the seat was (can't believe I didn't do that to start with, no actually that's not true, I can believe it :rolleyes:), and drove it back home again.
I'm just going to fit the drive side wheel bearing, I wanted to clean off all the old grease and alloy corrosion first, so didn't get around to that during that crappy rainy spell. Then I'll have my first attempt at fitting the swing arm. I've read up on the best method, but if anyone wants to mention anything please feel free. Particularly if there are any pitfalls I might get into. I'm aware that care is needed not to cross the threads of the pivot pins, but any other snags or 'be sure to do this' kinda things, more than welcome.
And yes Mike "One note on when the swing arm is installed I would use a bit of loctite on the bearing caps and paint mark a spot." . . . I've made note of that, I'll definitely use a little loctite and the paint spot. I appreciate that tip, thanks :thumb:
I used loctite 641 medium strength as opposed to one of the high strength ones, on the disk side loose bearing. It's all cured and feels good, so I'll see how that goes. My thoughts were on getting it out next time around, and I'd read on motocross forums about the guys having badly worn wheel bearing housings, and with 641 got a full one or two seasons out of them. I used to do a fair amount of off roading in the way of motocross, scrambling, green laning and trials, and figured if it holds up to m/x bikes doing 60 feet jumps and pounding through ruts etc, it should manage on the guzzi on road. If not, I'll have to change the bearing sooner is all, but I'm confident it'll work just fine. :smiley:
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A quick post about an easy and reliable UJ fitting tool replacement.
I'd been on the Moto Guzzi Club UK facebook page to see if there was anyone in the UK that might have the special tool for sale or loan with deposit paid.
In no time one nice chap showed me one he'd had made from nylon block, turned on a lathe. He was prepared to post but said I might be better off getting one 3d printed and provided s diagram and measurements.
I happened to have a friend who's into 3d printing so sent him a message. It wasn't his kind of thing but said leave it with him and his mate would be able to make one up for me, 3 days later, I was given this.
(https://i.ibb.co/mNxnS48/20231005-161747-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNxnS48)
Fantastic. I phoned a local garage up and asked if I could use there hydraulic press. He said if you can get here in 30 mins. But I found the internal diameter was a tad too small for my uj, and thought ok, have at it with a dremel and a sanding post. ..... Wow it's tough stuff, and soon realised there was no way I could do that in time, so I fell back on plan B :grin:
So plan B is one that anyone can easily put together. I'd found a couple of days before, that a 500ml Rubbing Alcohol bottles (Any pharmacy) are thick, sturdy, and near on the correct size.
(https://i.ibb.co/BBGNMh5/20231005-073150-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BBGNMh5)
It was a little sloppy in the swing rm, so I sleeved with another bottle. A bleach bottle or some other sturdy bottle.
(https://i.ibb.co/phFtJcf/20231005-073344-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/phFtJcf)
The UJ was just slightly loose inside. This probably would have been fine, but I cut up a Lucozade bottle and wrapped that around on the inside, and now it was a perfect snug fit, that held everything in line, but can be withdrawn with a firm pull.
(https://i.ibb.co/w0sWkTy/20231005-154810-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w0sWkTy)
I can't imagine anything working better than this now, and as opposed to the proper special tool, you can clearly see what the uj is doing as it's being pressed in, and it can't possibly fold up where the uj articulates. I don't like the idea of hammering it in, but the hydraulic press is smooth and easy to judge. The fit was a good tight fit, but the press made light work of it. The nice chap at the garage wouldn't accept any money from me, despite me making a strong effort to give him some.
(https://i.ibb.co/2yVX0GJ/20231005-152923-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2yVX0GJ)
So here's a couple of photos, so that anyone can copy, if of course, they have the necessary engineering skills to cut some plastic bottles and fit 'em in a hole ... Hahahaha :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/9wMRsJs/20231005-155955-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9wMRsJs)
(https://i.ibb.co/J5JgKNw/20231005-160047-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J5JgKNw)
(https://i.ibb.co/3cdCQbr/20231005-160226-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3cdCQbr)
Seriously though, very simple, infinitely adjustable, and it works a treat :boozing:
I realised after I'd got the uj fitted, that I'd had a msg on facebook from a Guzzi club member in the UK saying that he's an engineer and could make one up for me at work from the diagram sketch, and even had scrap blocks of nylon block so could make it and send it for the price of the postage. I'll say this, as someone who puts considerable effort into scrutinising the actions and agendas of the bolloctical and corporate ruling class, in a world that operates in the way ours does, the help and assistance that runs between so many people in the grass roots Guzzi world is truly heartwarming, not overwhelming, but enough to be a bit blown away all the same.
I'm well aware though, that this is only putting me in touch with the most natural state of the human condition, the natural desire is to help others to succeed around you, but this attribute is sadly lacking in so many areas of life. It's a bit of a sad indictment that to be in touch with what I feel is our natural way, is refreshing.
I'm fortunate to belong to a large social circle where I live and beyond that is very much along the same lines, but many of us have often said that it's a protective, fluffy bubble in a harsh prickly environment, where we can always call upon, and be called upon.
Of course the biker world in general, where a rider won't pass another rider who's broken down without stopping to check they're ok or need some assistance, well, unless if you're from the UK broken down at the side of the road, in Marseille. Where it doesn't matter how many 10's of bikes ride past, they will not stop. They'll stare at you, but they won't stop. I never felt so alone :sad: . . I was told afterwards that "Oh no, they don't like the English in Marseille". It's not as if Marseille is on the nearest coast to England, it's the very opposite end of France. Everywhere in between people seemed cool and friendly. How odd I thought.
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What could possibly go wrong, right? :rolleyes: :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/3dk01HZ/20231008-172913-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3dk01HZ)
Oh ... err ... uhm. . . . I seem to be a bit stuck, although from reading up about it, it takes several people a few hours to get it hooked up the first time, and when well practiced it's a 30 second job.
I seem to have it going into the frame reasonably well, it appears that I'm hooked up to the output shaft, but it doesn't seem to be on very far. I'm not sure how far on they should go, but further than it is I believe.
I can't see anything that's obstructing the swing arm, and it's very difficult to see exactly what's going on re the uj and output shaft, as I have the rubber boot attached to the engine, and to manoeuvre the swing arm with one hand, the other fingering the drive shaft so as to rotate it, I can't pull the rubber boot back for visuals due to not having a very useful 3rd hand :wink:
I'm presuming that the experienced will do this by feel as the uj mounts the output shaft, and the uj move into place with the frame.
So maybe the uj is just grabbing onto the end of the shaft, rather than being properly lined and fully sliding on.
I went in with it hanging down as low as possible, as per the common advice.
It's long after dark now, but it's a pleasant evening and I have an anglepoise lamp set up, so I think I'll pop out and have another try. This time use my old driveshaft and stick that on the end of the new drive shaft so I've got something to grip on to, to positively turn it and see if that helps any in getting it on. I didn't find it easy with my finger stuck up it's jacksy, with my finger in the sleeve.
The drive side and then the disk side, you can see I've got it going into place ok as far as this point. I can push the disk side up to it's hole just about but not the drive side so much
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0Rvg2Q/20231008-201626-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y0Rvg2Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/dWj5ZcF/20231008-201935-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dWj5ZcF)
A transparent rubber boot, now that'd be a thing.
Please let me know if there's anything obvious I'm missing, but I imagine I'd have come across such a thing when reading up on it, and I probably need to get some more jiggling done.
Cheers, Mart
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It sounds like you have coupled two drive shafts together so you can turn the U joint. Good idea!
Now put the trans in gear, any gear so the output shaft does not turn.
You might take a vice grips pliers or the like and clamp it to the output shaft to hold the boot back so you can see the joint and shaft.
Get the swing arm into place. U joint not connected yet to output shaft . Now hook up the shock to help you work with the swing arm.
Now the fiddly part. Your going to have to take a screwdriver or the like to maneuver the U joint onto the output shaft WHILE working with the sing arm. You may need to hold the swing arm up or down and try to align the U joint.
Sometimes they just slide together without effort. Other time they and be a royal B*&%$. If you can get a helper, that would be great!
Good luck!
Tom
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It sounds like you have coupled two drive shafts together so you can turn the U joint. Good idea!
Now put the trans in gear, any gear so the output shaft does not turn.
You might take a vice grips pliers or the like and clamp it to the output shaft to hold the boot back so you can see the joint and shaft.
Get the swing arm into place. U joint not connected yet to output shaft . Now hook up the shock to help you work with the swing arm.
Now the fiddly part. Your going to have to take a screwdriver or the like to maneuver the U joint onto the output shaft WHILE working with the sing arm. You may need to hold the swing arm up or down and try to align the U joint.
Sometimes they just slide together without effort. Other time they and be a royal B*&%$. If you can get a helper, that would be great!
Good luck!
Tom
I ended up feeling quite rough last night, something I ate I think, and ended up going to bed and slept through til earlier this evening, yuk!
Feeling better, I'm going to have another go now, after all, I left all the tools out there last night :rolleyes:
Ah, put it in gear, of course, that makes so much sense, but I hadn't thought of that, so if the uj is kind of snagging the output shaft, but not properly aligned, every time I can apply a small turn with my finger jammed in the drive shaft, it just turns the shaft with it, rather than slipping round into alignment. At least that's how I'm perceiving it, as I imagine you must be Tom. A good bit of obvious that I was missing there, thanks :thumb:
That is a really good description of a task that's done to a large extent by feel, and not easy to get across, a bit like trying to tell someone how to bend a note on the harmonica blues scale. Some people just describe how they do it in 30seconds, a little bit like 'if you do this it works easily', and on the one hand I get it, and can see that it can be a very easy job if you're well experienced, but the simple fact that so many people who lack experience find it incredibly difficult, means there are small details to avoid that make a big difference. Having said that, it does always give me the confidence that if someone can easily achieve something, then all I've got to do is learn the pitfalls that they may have lost touch with, forgotten after not having encountered them for so long due to years of solid experience of doing it right.
I do have the swing arm hooked up on the disk side suspension now, but when I was trying to get it on I was moving the angle up and down. I might just manage it with the additional drive shaft and it put into gear. If not, I should be able to get another pair of hands on it tmro. I still feel a little bit ugh, so I won't persist for very long tonight.
As for vice grips, I really must buy some :rolleyes: . I may be able to improvise with a pair of surgical forceps and a zip tie though, I'll see.
I'm using a long lasting sticky white spray grease (WD40 brand) to coat the UJ, inside the drive shaft housing, and inside the swing arm bearing tube on the unblocked side, red 'n tacky grease on in the swing arm bearings, shaft/uj splines, and wheel drive teeth, red rubber grease where the rubber boot seals, and copper grease on pivot pin frame threads, leaving external threads clean for using loctite on the pivot pin caps. Hopefully this will be enough love to keep things sweet back there between any maintenance in the future.
Cheers, Mart
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Never installed the boot anything beyond dry. It seals fine with the clamps. But never made an effort to keep it oil free at installation or subsequent opening for inspection. Never used Loctite on pivot pin caps (Guzzi) or locking nuts (BMW, Ural). Always set lock nuts to factory torque specifications often with modified socket. Nothing ever moved. Anti-seize on the pin threads is always good insurance during subsequent disassembly.
Are you having fun yet?
(https://i.ibb.co/mXR91NJ/20230923-134923.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXR91NJ)
My Guzzis are both tip top currently but the Ural is hanging from the ceiling getting a new clutch, transmission input shaft and three universal spiders. I thought of you while I was doing the small driveshaft between the transmission and the rear differential. (Yes, it is a differential on the '96 Ural 2 wheel drive rear gear set). I had it so much easier as the primary shaft is totally exposed. I can see everything as I install it. Nothing hidden or untouchable whatsoever.
Of course I had to remove the sidecar to get at half the stuff.
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Did you try the coupling onto the gearbox outlet shaft before you mounted it in the swing arm/fitted the rubber boot?
It's worth knowing that things will go together easily before trying to do it blind
You might be trying to assemble something that wont go together due to some defect
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Yay, I got my swing arm hooked up without too much more effort. The second drive shaft made it so much easier to apply pressure in either direction, and popping it in gear, was the winning combination.
I was already hooked up to it with splines aligned,but was hung up due to the angle, but with it hooked up by the left shock, and then raising and lowering at the sw/a bearing end, I managed to jiggle it all the way on, then carefully got the pivot pins in and adjusted them evenly to slightly over 6mm of exposed threads each side for the locking caps to hold onto.
So now, all the difficult stuff is completed, phew :drool:, so it's just a matter of fitting the rear drive with new o ring, wheel, brake calliper, and shock mounted and torqued up, silencers hung, change the final drive oil, and then go for a frickin' ride!! I hope I still remember how to do that :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Just in the nick of time too, it's forecast a couple of rainy days from tmro, and then temps dropping from 20c to around 10-12c, boo!
Apart from the tightening up of the 4 final drive bolts after the wheel is fitted and the axle tightened up, is there anything else I should be bearing in mind that I might be missing?
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Congrats :thumb: Your almost done!
Tom
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When you start tightening bolts, you’re supposed to tighten the axel nut before you tighten the four nuts holding on the bevel box. It’s almost done!
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Here's a good laugh for you :rolleyes:
I spent most of the late afternoon early evening looking for the rear wheel spacer, you know the one that doesn't exist :violent1:
I got the wheel fitted, but as I got positioned on the drive teeth, I stuck the wheel spindle through from the bevel side first, as I got to the other side, stopping short enough (so I hadn't yet pushed it far enough to realise it wouldn't go all the way in that side), to hang the brake calliper assembly, I realised there was a gap.
I thought to myself I can't remember there being a spacer, and all my parts removed, well, apart from just the one eeny, teeny, bitty drive shaft :rolleyes:, went into one box.
Well instead of thinking it through, and realising it was the wrong way around, I searched the back room, and then set about cutting all the vegetation down in the backyard, thinking I must be going mad, not remembering it had a spacer, and maybe kicked it away accidentally and not noticed :undecided:
So I looked on the exploded diagram to see if I could get one ordered pronto. when reading the diagram, I couldn't figure it out, and then it suddenly dawned on me how fkn stupid I'd been.
I caught myself cracking out laughing before my thinking brain had any conscious thought that it was funny. I remember, my internal dialogue went along the lines of "Hey, hey, you didn't even tell me it was funny until I was laughing." ... "I know, funny though huh?" .... "Yeah but ..."
Afterwards, I got to wondering whether laughing at myself when I do something really stupid, as my mum always did, is actually a self defense coping mechanism to prevent doing myself some serious harm bashing my head against a brick wall. . . . and really, if so, it's fair play to the little people inside me really, that are charged with operating my functions and steering me through life, it can't be an easy job :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Now I'll go and finish up with and angle poise in the dark :rolleyes:
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I spent most of the late afternoon early evening looking for the rear wheel spacer, you know the one that doesn't exist
I've been known to do stuff like that myself! LOL!
It sounds as if you're ALMOST done. :bow: What a saga!
If you ever have to do it again, you'll know what parts
to order ahead of time, to skip rebuilding the U-joint and just
buy another one, and all the little tricks to get it back together.
Probably be able to do it a 3rd time in an hour or two. :grin:
Good on yer for keeping at it.
-Stretch
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Nice to hear your bike is about ready to ride. Looks like you have learned a lot repairing your bike and saved some money too.
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So, I managed to get my bike all put together Tuesday, into the night, but only just got chance to take it for a spin yesterday evening. I only popped out locally, but everything feels lovely, smooth and quiet back there now. I've yet to try it at speed and see if there's a noticeable lack in vibration, but I suspect there will be.
(https://i.ibb.co/hMtTh0h/20231011-033923-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hMtTh0h)
One thing that did occur, is my linked brake pedal isn't returning properly. I lubricated all of the linkage points, but I think it must be in the plunger mechanism of the unit itself. There seems to be stiffness and a distinct notch at one point of it's travel.
Another thing I haven't experience in maintaining, the linked brake unit. Oh what joys lie ahead I wonder :rolleyes: It's got to be a lot easier than sorting the drive train out though :wink:
I really want to express how grateful I am to all those who've shared their experience and advice, and those who've shown valuable moral support, thank you all very, very much. I really don't know how I'd have managed to get through this without you guys :bow: :bow: :bow:
Never installed the boot anything beyond dry. It seals fine with the clamps.
My Guzzis are both tip top currently but the Ural is hanging from the ceiling getting a new clutch, transmission input shaft and three universal spiders. I thought of you while I was doing the small driveshaft between the transmission and the rear differential.
Re the rubber grease on the boot, I don't know if it's a difference in climate and usage perhaps, mine being exposed to the weather all year round in the damp, grey UK, but water/moisture had definitely got inside mine, despite the rubber boot appearing to be in a good state. There was some corrosive roughness on the metal where the boot is clamped to the motor, so unless water has got in through a crack in one of the welds on the swing arm, which I imagine is pretty unlikely, it must have got in where it seals. However, either way, some rubber grease can only help the situation in both moisture resistance and keeping the rubber in good shape, and certainly not a bad thing :wink:
Nice quirky Ural, there's something very appealing in the rugged, no frills (apart from two wheel drive for the sidecar) simplicity :thumb: , and soon enough people will stop hating all things Russian, doh :rolleyes:
Are the pointy out rod bits on the rear brake pedal and between the front of the pot and the exhaust, designed to protect the cylinder and head in the advent of a spill?
Did you try the coupling onto the gearbox outlet shaft before you mounted it in the swing arm/fitted the rubber boot?
It's worth knowing that things will go together easily before trying to do it blind
You might be trying to assemble something that wont go together due to some defect
Thanks, it's funny you mention that, but yes I'd checked the new couplings, but when I tried to insert the old drive shaft into the new coupler of the new drive shaft to give me a better grip to turn the uj into alignment, it was really difficult and needed some force to connect the two. Still can't figure out why that should be, but yes I can certainly see your point.
Congrats :thumb: Your almost done!
Tom
Nice one Tom, thanks.
When you start tightening bolts, you’re supposed to tighten the axel nut before you tighten the four nuts holding on the bevel box. It’s almost done!
Thanks John, that's precisely what I did :wink:
I've been known to do stuff like that myself! LOL!
It sounds as if you're ALMOST done. :bow: What a saga!
If you ever have to do it again, you'll know what parts
to order ahead of time, to skip rebuilding the U-joint and just
buy another one, and all the little tricks to get it back together.
Probably be able to do it a 3rd time in an hour or two. :grin:
Good on yer for keeping at it.
-Stretch
I'm glad I'm not the only one :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Yes, it'd definitely be easier to do a second time, but may it be some time if that's ever necessary again :wink: :grin:
Nice to hear your bike is about ready to ride. Looks like you have learned a lot repairing your bike and saved some money too.
Thanks Mike, You're absolutely right, a steep learning curve, and despite my mistakes, saved a considerable, for me, amount of cash :thumb:
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Sidecar (not in picture) protects rig from a spill. The pointy out rod bit couples the foot brake pedal to the Sidecar brake mechanism.
Ural no longer made in Russia (everywhere but, almost).